Futurist Only So wait.. there's a dedicated altar and ritual sacrifices being performed again NOW?

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Yours is found below.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Mine is in the next verse.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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OK... so how could the post in question be referring to "your" Jerusalem if it is in the distant future?

BABerean2 · Aug 26, 2020

JacksBratt said:
OK... so how could the post in question be referring to "your" Jerusalem if it is in the distant future?

What do you consider to be the distant future?

.

jgr · Aug 26, 2020

Running2win said:
Have you?

I have.

Paul had.

Have you?

throughfiierytrial · Aug 26, 2020

vinsight4u said:
Seems that it would be an idol that a Chaldean would have as a fake god.
I don't understand as to the part about praying when you see it as to that
your flight not be in winter nor on the Sabbath day. Won't everyone in
Israel see it as the same time? There will be many sabbaths before the
time of the great tribulation from that point in time.

1290 days - abomination
1260 days -great tribulation

The abomination will be placed by a group of "they" and it will stand
in the holy place.

Daniel 11 later refers to how he honors himself as above God, then all of a
sudden it switches to honoring a foreign type in his own land. I see that as the
beast out of the sea's deadly wound is healed. Gets his power from the ten kings and
has many ships and continues to make war- the great tribulation begins and he
again enters into the land of Israel.

Daniel 11:21/ more than 7 years to the fall of the little horn
Daniel 11:31/ 1290 days to the fall of the little horn king
Daniel 11:36
Daniel 11:40 wars against the saints/ 1260 days to the fall of the little horn.

These are all about the little horn king from the Iraq/Syria area of the former
empire of Greece.

I believe that we are mostly talking about spiritual forces in the heavenly realms:
Ephesians 6:12:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
One destructive force/power which is especially at work in our current day and has prospered hugely in just recent years is deceit and lawlessness...we need to be on guard and firmly resist all lying and deceit of any sort.
Daniel 8:25 and II Thessalonians 2

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

Dave L said:
You might be better off if you spend some time with this.

144,000
The community of the “redeemed” in 7:3–8 is the same as in 14:1–4 because of the verbal parallels and ideas observed above. In 14:3–4, the 144,000 are those “who had been purchased from the earth” and who “have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God.” And there is a parallel between 14:4 and 5:9b which is so close that the groups mentioned as “purchased” in both are probably identical (5:9b: the lamb purchased “for God … men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation”). This would mean that the 144,000 in 14:1–3 are not some small remnant of ethnic Israelites but another way of speaking of the larger remnant of humanity living during the church age whom Christ has redeemed from throughout the world. If this identification is correct, then the 144,000 in 7:3–8 must also represent the same redeemed remnant from all over the earth. In this case, 7:9 would interpret the group of 7:3–8 as those who are “from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” (see further on 7:9). This is virtually the same phrase as that in 5:9b, both being based on the formulas of Daniel 3–7. This group is numbered as 144,000 to emphasize figuratively that this is a picture of the church in its entirety, not in part, which has been redeemed, as the vision of the multitude in 7:9–17 bears out (on the identity of the 144,000 see further on vv. 4–8 below).

That this is the case is apparent from the following reasons, among other considerations

Who are the one hundred and forty-four thousand? They are unlikely to be literal Israelites living at the very end of history during a severe tribulation, nor are they literal Israelites living during the desecration of Israel’s second temple in the first century, for in either case God’s protection would apply only to ethnic Jews—and a limited number of them—rather than to His people redeemed from every nation, including Jewish believers in Jesus. Such a suggestion would be alien to the teaching of the NT (read Galatians, for instance).

A better understanding comes from the context. In 5:9, the Lamb is said to have purchased with His blood “men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.” In 14:3–4, the 144,000 are said to have been purchased “from the earth” and purchased “from among men.” The almost identical language suggests that the two are the same group—the church of all ages. This would explain why, immediately after the vision of the sealing, John sees a great multitude of people from every nation and tribe and people and tongue (7:9). As we will see, this is a picture interpreting the number which has been heard in 7:4–8, thus representing those who have been sealed. As noted above, all Satan’s followers bear his mark or name, and all the Lamb’s followers must bear the Lamb’s mark or name—hence, all believers in Christ throughout the ages are sealed and must be included in the one hundred and forty-four thousand.

But why speak of a specific number? In 21:13–14, the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles together form the foundational structure of the new Jerusalem. Multiplying twelve by twelve equals one hundred and forty-four, representing the entire people of God through the ages. Multiplying that figure by one thousand reinforces the notion of completeness.

In the list of tribes recorded in these verses, it is striking that Judah is mentioned first. This emphasizes Christ’s descent from Judah (see 5:5), as prophesied in Gen. 49:8–10 and elsewhere in the OT where a descendent of David (and thus of Judah) is prophesied to arise as Messiah in the latter days (Ezek. 34:23; 37:24–26; Ps. 16:8–11; together with Acts 2:25–28). Therefore, this is a continuation of 5:5, where Jesus is identified as the fulfillment of the promised leader from Judah. Furthermore, the priority of Judah is appropriate because Gen. 49:10 predicts that the coming leader of Judah will bring about “the obedience of the peoples.” In this respect, the LXX of Gen. 49:10 reads, “he is the expectation of nations,” and Paul alludes to Gen. 49:10 in Rom. 1:5 by referring to “the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles,” which has been accomplished by Christ, the “descendant of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3; cf. 16:26). Therefore, the tribe of Judah is mentioned first because the Messiah from Judah is the king who represents Israel, and through its new king Judah has become the door of blessing to the nations (so 5:5, 9). Accordingly, a kingly descendant from David would be a natural choice to provide entry for the nations into the blessings of Israel.

It is clear that one of the names written on Gentile Christians, in addition to those of God and Christ, is “the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem” (3:12). Since the name of the “new Jerusalem” is equated with Christ’s “new name” in Rev. 3:12, it is likely that Christians can be identified with the “new Jerusalem,” since they are identified with Christ; they are thus the true Israel. In the same way, Isa. 49:3, in relation to Isa. 53:10 and Gal. 3:16, affirms the Messiah as the true Israel. Jesus as the messianic “seed” of Israel (Gal. 3:16) represents all believers, so that they are also part of the Israelite “seed” (Gal. 3:29). However, this name is not written on those “who say that they are Jews, and are not” true Jews (Rev. 3:9), since they reject Christ. The name of “the new Jerusalem” applied to the church of Philadelphia is closely linked conceptually to the 144,000 from every tribe of the sons of Israel.

Christians are thus here portrayed as the true Israel, as also in 1:6 and 5:10 (applying Exod. 19:6); 5:9 (applying Dan. 7:18, 22); 2:17 and 3:12 (applying Isa. 62:2 and 65:15); 3:9 (applying Isa. 49:23 and 60:14); and in the picture of the new Jerusalem in chs. 21–22 (applying Ezekiel 40–48). In fact, a series of prophecies about Israel’s restoration is cited as fulfilled in those who believe “from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues” in 7:9, 15–17 (on which see below). This is consistent with the identification elsewhere in the NT of the church (composed of Jews and Gentiles) as fulfilling predictions of Israel’s restoration (so Rom. 9:24–26; 10:12–13; 2 Cor. 5:17; 6:2, 16–18) and being called true “Jews” (Rom. 2:28–29), “Israel” (Rom. 9:6; Gal. 6:15–16), true “circumcision” (Phil. 3:3), “the twelve tribes” (cf. Jas. 1:1), or dispersed Israelites (1 Pet. 1:1; 2:9). In fact, including Gentiles as part of true end-time Israel was prophesied in the OT (so Psalm 87; Isa. 19:18–25, especially v. 18; 56:1–8; Ezek. 47:21–23; Zech. 2:11; 9:7).

Beale, G. K., & Campbell, D. H. (2015). Revelation: A Shorter Commentary (pp. 149–150). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

I've spent my time with many articles and commentaries on this subject. But thanks.

Dave L · Aug 26, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I've spent my time with many articles and commentaries on this subject. But thanks.

The historic or recent?

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Many of us were taught that. It doesn't add up to me.

Fair enough.

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
What do you consider to be the distant future?

.

Well, Jerusalem is here now.. And.. the new one.. well is not.. And there is about 1000 years of Christ's reign before it is created.. So.. that distant.

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You have been taught a lot of error. You are sadly attributing to antichrist that which pertains alone to Christ.

What supposed past anointed one came to:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

I don't understand how any of your points associate with what I stated.

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

Dave L said:
The historic or recent?

What do you consider historic?

What do you consider recent?

Most of them were written since I was born... Then, there is biblical scripture.

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Do you believe that the Bible is the final court of appeal? Do you believe in proof texts? Do you believe in biblical corroboration to prove a truth?

What are you considering to be "proof texts"? There are many writings that can be used to support biblical truth.. Or.. should I say writings that are supported by biblical truths?

Not all are even considered by some.

Dave L · Aug 26, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What do you consider historic?

What do you consider recent?

Most of them were written since I was born... Then, there is biblical scripture.

You are completely out of touch with the historic church. Most of what people believe today came about in the 1800s and severely twists scripture. People assume it's true since it is all they ever heard.

Running2win · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That explains Pretrib in a nut-shell. It is not based on the inspired proof-texts of Scripture but rather man's faulty interpretations of the same. That is why the Left Behind novels exist. They have no basis in Holy Writ. They are pure deceitful fiction.

Funny how you don't believe what is happening in front of your own eyes: Israel a nation again, the city of Jerusalem is under Jewish control again (Jerusalem and the Jews are the context of Daniel 9:24), and Jesus has not come back over there, so at the least prophecy is not fulfilled yet.

I'm not Pre-trib but am Pre-mill. Soon we will see another Temple. This is truth. Then what will you say? How many things have to happen before you believe? IMO, you will not, because you are conditioned not to believe that any prophecy will take place. God will then send upon you a deluding influence. :sigh:

We take the word at face value or we don't.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That explains Pretrib in a nut-shell. It is not based on the inspired proof-texts of Scripture but rather man's faulty interpretations of the same. That is why the Left Behind novels exist. They have no basis in Holy Writ. They are pure deceitful fiction.

Are you going to indicate what you mean by "proof texts"? Or, are you just going to keep typing stuff?

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Really?

So where were you referring to for your biblical support for all this?

Daniel 9:27
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Matthew 24:15

King James Version

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

So, for clarity:
From:What is the meaning of the abomination of desolation?

So by letting Scripture interpret Scripture, we find that a reasonable answer to the question of "What is the abomination of desolation?" is that it will be the Antichrist, three and a half years into his reign, taking a place in God's rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and saying to the world that he is God and must be worshipped as God. When that occurs, the real Creator will respond to the challenge and will ultimately and eternally destroy the Antichrist (Revelation 19:20).

JacksBratt · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Hello! A scripture text that definitely proves your doctrine.

"Hello"? Really...

Is it not a cardinal rule to follow "hello" with " Mcfly"?

Nice attempt at insult though....

Running2win · Aug 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Really? Apostate Israel is a fleshly artificially-contrived unscriptural return bank-rolled by deluded believers throughout the world who have no understanding who true Israel is today. The wrath of God is therefore on apostate Zionist Israel.

Daniel 9:26b says, “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

(1) It is important to note that the focus in this passage is upon “the people” of the prince that shall come not on “the prince” as many futurists try to do. The “people of the prince that shall come” is undoubtedly the Roman soldiers.

(2) They will destroy both the “the city and the sanctuary.”

(3) The “end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” This war will be so overwhelming it will flood both Jerusalem and the sanctuary and leave it completely desolate.

Keep your vicious threats to yourself! They are not allowed on this board.

Yeah, just skip over the context of 9:24. Same ole, same ole... And Jesus is a Jew and loves Zion!

Zion’s Glory and New Name

1For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet,
Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness,
And her salvation like a torch that is burning.

2The nations will see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory;
And you will be called by a new name
Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

3You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the LORD,
And a royal diadem in the hand of your God.

4It will no longer be said to you, “Forsaken,”
Nor to your land will it any longer be said, “Desolate”;
But you will be called, “My delight is in her,”
And your land, “Married”;
For the LORD delights in you,
And to Him your land will be married.

If the word threatens maybe you should take note. :wave:

I won't be deceived. :amen:

Yekcidmij · Aug 26, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I've been unaware since this wasn't something in the news for me but even on these forums I see that there was an altar, meant to be able to be taken apart and reassembled on the temple mount, and that the Sanhedrin have been performing animal sacrifices since 2019?

Is this true or is this all a ruse?

The Samaritans have been doing it for quite some time (did they ever stop?). They even allow spectators.

The Liturgist · Aug 26, 2020

While most Rabinnical Jews, and by most, I mean nearly all, since the group that did this sacrifice is a fringe group, believe animal sacrifices are inefficacious and disallowed until the Messiah comes and rebuilds the Temple, and the same is also true of the small minority of Karaite Jews, the Ethiopian Jews, the Beta Israel, to my knowledge, never stopped animal sacrifices. Indeed, their liturgy from what I have read (and I have to caution I could be mistaken on this point, as information on the Beta Israel and Ethiopic Judaism and Christianity tends to be obscure and often inaccurate; I really wish I could read the ancient Ge’ez language in which their texts are written), is basically that of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, except without the reading of the New Testament, and with animal sacrifices instead of Holy Communion.

Which actually makes quite a lot of sense; I think had the Temple not been destroyed, this would be the pattern for nearly all Jews today.

The 800 or so surviving Samaritans* also continue to slaughter lambs on Passover at the site of the ruins of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim. They have separate worship services in their synagogue, and accept only the Pentateuch, with a few deviations from the Jewish text. Interestingly Samaritan Torah scrolls have three spools rather than two.

*The Samaritans nearly became extinct in the early 20th century; I believe there were less than 150 of them alive in 1900.

keras · Aug 26, 2020

Over Jerusalem the Glory of the Lord will appear:

Isaiah 60:1-7 Arise! Shine, Jerusalem, for your light has come – over you the glory of the Lord has dawned. Though darkness covers the earth, on you the Lord shines. Over you His glory will appear. Nations and kings will come to your light. Look – your sons and daughters are coming from afar, all assembling in the Land. You will rejoice at the sight. The wealth of nations will be yours. Droves of camels laden with treasure will come and flocks of sheep will cover the Land, acceptable offerings for My altar and to enhance the splendor of My Temple.

Isaiah 60:8-11 Who are these that sail along like clouds? They are vessels assembling from the coasts and islands bringing your children from far away, their treasures with them, for the honor of the Holy One of Israel. In My wrath, I struck you down, now in My favor I show you pity. Foreigners and kings will work for you.

Isaiah 60:12-18 For the nation that refuses to serve you will perish, there will be widespread devastation among such nations. The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, to adorn My holy sanctuary. All who reviled you shall pay you homage, calling Jerusalem “The City of the Lord”. I shall give My Land and people everlasting renown. You will receive the best gifts from kings and the nations. Then you will acknowledge that your Redeemer is the Mighty One of Israel. For copper you shall have gold, for iron, silver. You will live in peace and righteousness will rule over you. No more will havoc and ruin be within your borders. Your walls will be deliverance and your gates, praise.

Isaiah 60:19-22 The sun and moon will no longer be your light, for the Lord will be your everlasting light. Your days of mourning will be ended. The Lords people, all of them righteous, will possess the Land forever. They are My own planting, the work of My hands for My adornment. The few will become a great nation.

At the appointed time, I, the Lord, will bring this swiftly to pass.
Ref. REB. Some verses abridged.

This prophecy of Isaiah, speaks of the time, soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, when every faithful Christian will gather into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10

‘darkness covers the earth’, It may be months before the smoke and ash from the ‘widespread devastation’ of the direct hit by a massive CME sunstrike clears. Zephaniah 2:4-5, Jeremiah 4:23-28, Joel 1:15-20

‘The Lord’s people, all of them righteous, assembling from the coasts and islands’, Ezekiel 20:34. Every born again Christian, all who stood firm in their faith, Luke 21:34-36, will travel on every type of transport to the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107

‘Over you, His Glory will appear’, His Glory, not his presence. ‘Then you will acknowledge your Redeemer’. The Return of Jesus to reign for the Millennium is to come later.

‘The wealth of nations will be yours’, This was done before; at the first Exodus, the Israelites took treasure from the Egyptians. Exodus 11:2

‘The splendor of My Temple’, One of the first projects of the new inhabitants of Beulah, will be to build the third Temple. The temple mount will have been cleared and cleansed by the fires and earthquakes of this CME. Zechariah 6:15

Isaiah 60:19, refers to the time after the Millennium. Revelation 21:23-24

Futurist Only So wait.. there's a dedicated altar and ritual sacrifices being performed again NOW?

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