Wondering about the worth of Theology.

1213 · Aug 19, 2020

dms1972 said:
...I thought theology would help fix that. ...Maybe I am just in rebellion but if so how do I come out of that?

Theology seems to be usually about something else than God’s will. Luckily, there is one good way. Be directly a disciple of Jesus, follow his teachings and keep his words. After all, he is the king. It is much lighter and you don’t need to make excuses and accept interpretations that are bad.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And about the miracles, I think it is more important to understand what Jesus said and what is good and right. Believing in miracles is not very useful and I don’t think it is required. Righteousness is required for one to get eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

But, I don’t believe we would have the Bible, if the miracles would not have really happened.

Jok · Aug 19, 2020

dms1972 said:
In speaking about apologetics - there is too much time wasted disputing and reading about disputes between apologetic methodology - people should get on with their own approach and see what fruit if any it yields.

Very true. I probably have an even below average endurance level for it, I didn’t do too well in those threads with atheists because after having just a couple of exchanges with someone I felt like I was finished, but they wanna go on forever. I should probably have at least more endurance for it than I have but I don’t if I sense any anger or cockiness at all, I sensed a lot of it in there.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2020

dms1972 said:
Maybe its just because of how things are with me spiritually and mentally at the moment, but i really am wondering about the worth of studying theology, any more? I don't know what drew me to it to begin with and some other christians I knew were concerned of me getting into it. I guess I was feeling something had happened with my relationship with God, maybe I had drifted and I thought theology would help fix that. I suppose in a sense I went into it for the wrong reasons. Now I feel lost (though to be honest I have felt lost for years)

The thing I find with theology is that a lot of it tends to be rather academic. And often it doesn't clarify what the Bible means. For instance I have been reading RT Kendall's Calvin and English Calvinism - while this is very well written and researched it still doesn't seem to tell the reader how Faith is to be understood biblically. It goes into great depth about how Calvin differed from the English Calvinists and Puritans in his understanding of Faith, and that Calvin may not have been a "Calvinist". It has excerpts from Calvins Commentaries. Fair enough I suppose that there is a important difference to make clear. But in the end who was correct in their understanding of faith?

ahhh now this is an interesting topic!!

I would highly recommend writing out a set of Bible topics "that matter". Then for each topic make your own list of Bible texts that you feel explain the topic. KEEP-IT-SIMPLE

I wouldn't go to far before getting that first step completed.

For example

1. What is the NEW Covenant (Hint start by quoting it from the Bible in all 3 places where it is found)
2. What is the sin problem? Was there really an Adam or an Eve?
3. Who created all life ?
4. Why did Jesus die? What penalty did He pay in full?
5. What happens when you die?
6. What sequence does Jesus give for the second coming in Matthew 24? How does it fit with John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess 4:13-18?
7. Rom 10:9-10 what is it that 'results' in salvation?
8. What is God's complaint in Isaiah 5:4 and at the end of Matthew 23?

and of course others.

dms1972 · Aug 20, 2020

Jok said:
Very true. I probably have an even below average endurance level for it, I didn’t do too well in those threads with atheists because after having just a couple of exchanges with someone I felt like I was finished, but they wanna go on forever. I should probably have at least more endurance for it than I have but I don’t if I sense any anger or cockiness at all, I sensed a lot of it in there.

Atheists are sometimes rejecting what amounts to a caricature of God. They know at some moments that there is a God (otherwise why do they keep talking about Him?)

You cannot debate with someone who is asking muddled headed questions however. If people put a bit of time into thinking out the actual question they want to ask, then some of the discussions here would not meander on so long.

dms1972 · Aug 20, 2020

BobRyan said:
ahhh now this is an interesting topic!!

I would highly recommend writing out a set of Bible topics "that matter". Then for each topic make your own list of Bible texts that you feel explain the topic. KEEP-IT-SIMPLE

I wouldn't go to far before getting that first step completed.

For example

1. What is the NEW Covenant (Hint start by quoting it from the Bible in all 3 places where it is found)
2. What is the sin problem? Was there really an Adam or an Eve?
3. Who created all life ?
4. Why did Jesus die? What penalty did He pay in full?
5. What happens when you die?
6. What sequence does Jesus give for the second coming in Matthew 24? How does it fit with John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess 4:13-18?
7. Rom 10:9-10 what is it that 'results' in salvation?
8. What is God's complaint in Isaiah 5:4 and at the end of Matthew 23?

and of course others.

Thats all fine. The problem with some 'theologians' and I am speaking of those who purport to be christian theologians, though it is of an academic variety, is that they are not content to accept how the Bible answers those questions.

Bultmann's existential theology is at odds with the New Testament and even if he doesn't say it directly, by his re-interpreting the Resurrection of Jesus, as not Jesus being raised to life again and being seen by witnesses, but only being risen within his disciples hearts, he contradicts the New Testament.

While I would not entirely agree with Francis Schaeffer on every point, he is correct I believe to say that the Bible gives an unified field of knowledge as regards the history of Jesus and in regard to the doctrine of salvation, and a lot of difficulties are removed by accepting it.

Root of Jesse · Aug 21, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Compare any theologies with His Word ... His Word is the truth. Church doesn't save you ... Jesus does ... He is our example ... follow the Lamb.

His Word is both literal and also very symbolic .... hard core literalists dismiss a lot of the metaphoric and symbolic meanings and therefore many times it will not make sense using literal application only.

You come out of it by studying His Word for yourself and asking guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Regardless where the teaching comes from .... it is this ....

Acts 17:11
Berean Study Bible
Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

Be a Berean ;o) Study His Word yourself!

His Word instituted a Church...

dms1972 · Aug 21, 2020

Radagast said:
Yesterday I drank a bottle of cyanide to see if it was as much of a poison as they say.

There are more beneficial things to drink and to read than cyanide and Bultmann.

AFAIK, he denied both the Incarnation and the Resurrection, the two most fundamental Christian beliefs.

What do you think?

The thing is there are people who have read Bultmann and would value a Biblical critique to help them. Your way is just to say "don't read it." That doesn't really help people who already have. In any case I have useful book on Bultmann's Theology by Robert C Roberts, who understands his theology but for the most part does not agree with it and is able to critique it and ask the right questions concerning it.

Whether Bultmann was a christian - I think God will have to be the judge of that as regards his soul, he seemed pretty agnostic and so I cannot say whether he ever knew Jesus Christ savingly, or if near the end of his life he came to accept the Biblical account of the Resurrection.

One could say that his theology has one foot in the Reformation, the other in the Enlightenment. The thing of course is that theologians like Bultmann often do understand the modern mindset quite well, but their theology unfortunately remains within it. For myself I would not be inclined to venture into his theology again, unless for some reason I had to for a theology course or something.

chevyontheriver · Aug 21, 2020

dms1972 said:
The thing is there are people how have read Bultmann and would value a critique to help them. Your way is just to say "don't read it." That doesn't really help people who already have. In any case I have useful book on Bultmann's Theology by Robert C Roberts, who understands his theology but for the most part does not agree with it and is able to critique it and ask the right questions concerning it.

Whether Bultmann was a christian I think God will have to be the judge of that as regards his soul, he seemed pretty agnostic and so I cannot say whether he ever knew Jesus Christ savingly, or if near the end of his life he came to accept the Biblical account of the Resurrection.

One could say that his theology has one foot in the Reformation, the other in the Enlightenment. The thing of course is that theologians like Bultmann often do understand the modern mindset somewhat, but their theology unfortunately remains within it. For myself I would not be inclined to venture into his theology again, unless for some reason I had to for a theology course or something.

I've read Bultmann (and Tillich and Rahner and Teilhard). Then I stopped reading such nonsense. There are plenty of decent theologians to read that actually help you fix your eyes on Jesus.

Gottservant · Aug 21, 2020

Be grateful.

I am on medication and my desire to be religious, has really suffered.

dms1972 · Aug 26, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
I've read Bultmann (and Tillich and Rahner and Teilhard). Then I stopped reading such nonsense. There are plenty of decent theologians to read that actually help you fix your eyes on Jesus.

That is true from a devotional and practical point of view. Theology that originates in the universities is largely academic. I have picked up the general thrust of some of the theological writers I have studied, sometimes with the help of writers not indebted to those theologies. In their own way folks like Bultmann seen a deficiency in the theological world they inhabited which was the world of 19th century theological liberalism, they tried to correct that, but often ended by separating faith from history in some way, and have not moved any closer to historic christianity.

dms1972 · Aug 26, 2020

Gottservant said:
Be grateful.

I am on medication and my desire to be religious, has really suffered.

Make it your aim to lean on Christ and his Word, and his promises. Don't let pointless theological debates here side track you or keep you from getting well again. God Bless.

The Liturgist · Aug 26, 2020

Radagast said:
Those why deny the Resurrection are not Christians. They are "of all people most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19).

This is true. Also, if we use the ancient definition of Theologian, which Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians still favor, that is to say, someone who pursues knowledge of God through prayer, ascesis and so on, one could argue that Bultmann is not only a non-Christian heretic, but also, not a theologian in any sense; a better term for people like him, or even much better, doctrinally orthodox Christian scholars like NT Wright, CS Lewis, Scott Hahn or Kallistos Ware would be a “Scholar of Divinity.”

The best definition of a Theologian I have seen is that of the ancient Church Father Evagrius of Pontus: ““The one who prays is a theologian; the one who is a theologian, prays.”

The Liturgist · Aug 26, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Compare any theologies with His Word ... His Word is the truth. Church doesn't save you ... Jesus does ... He is our example ... follow the Lamb.

Forgive me, but I believe this is an extreme error. When we join the Christian Church, the One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church referenced in the Nicene Creed, which is the Statement of Faith on ChristianForums.com, when we are baptized into the Faith, we die and are born again, grafted onto the Body of Christ, and we are then sustained through the Lord’s Supper, where we are in Communion with Christ and all Christians by partaking of His Body and Blood, the blood of the New Covenant Christ shed as a ransom for many, for the remission of sins and life everlasting.

Also note that I am not Roman Catholic; the view I expressed is broadly held across denominations ranging from Lutherans to Eastern Orthodox to Methodists, but it is of course also believed in by Roman Catholics.

eleos1954 · Aug 26, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Forgive me, but I believe this is an extreme error. When we join the Christian Church, the One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church referenced in the Nicene Creed, which is the Statement of Faith on ChristianForums.com, when we are baptized into the Faith, we die and are born again, grafted onto the Body of Christ, and we are then sustained through the Lord’s Supper, where we are in Communion with Christ and all Christians by partaking of His Body and Blood, the blood of the New Covenant Christ shed as a ransom for many, for the remission of sins and life everlasting.

Were none in the OT saved? Were none before church institutions/systems were established not saved?

Jesus saves ... not the church institutions/systems.

dms1972 · Aug 26, 2020

The Liturgist said:
This is true. Also, if we use the ancient definition of Theologian, which Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians still favor, that is to say, someone who pursues knowledge of God through prayer, ascesis and so on, one could argue that Bultmann is not only a non-Christian heretic, but also, not a theologian in any sense; a better term for people like him, or even much better, doctrinally orthodox Christian scholars like NT Wright, CS Lewis, Scott Hahn or Kallistos Ware would be a “Scholar of Divinity.”

The best definition of a Theologian I have seen is that of the ancient Church Father Evagrius of Pontus: ““The one who prays is a theologian; the one who is a theologian, prays.”

I think that is a very good definition as far as it goes, also to approach the Bible with reverence and humility.

CS Lewis never pretended to be a theologian, his main field was Medieval and Renaissance Literature. His Fernseed and Elephants address that he gave to students at a theological college is still very relevant.

I think a lot of scripture is not easy for us today because we don't have the hebraic mind, and that is true of a lot of christians that nevertheless would claim to be "evangelical".

EddieStormX · Aug 31, 2020

dms1972 said:
Maybe its just because of how things are with me spiritually and mentally at the moment, but i really am wondering about the worth of studying theology, any more? I don't know what drew me to it to begin with and some other christians I knew were concerned of me getting into it. I guess I was feeling something had happened with my relationship with God, maybe I had drifted and I thought theology would help fix that. I suppose in a sense I went into it for the wrong reasons. Now I feel lost (though to be honest I have felt lost for years)

The thing I find with theology is that a lot of it tends to be rather academic. And often it doesn't clarify what the Bible means. For instance I have been reading RT Kendall's Calvin and English Calvinism - while this is very well written and researched it still doesn't seem to tell the reader how Faith is to be understood biblically. It goes into great depth about how Calvin differed from the English Calvinists and Puritans in his understanding of Faith, and that Calvin may not have been a "Calvinist". It has excerpts from Calvins Commentaries. Fair enough I suppose that there is a important difference to make clear. But in the end who was correct in their understanding of faith? A lot of people talk as if faith is something we do, while others say it is a gift, its resting in Christ, its not something we can work up.

Honestly I don't know what I am theologically - I might be pelagian, semi-pelagian, Barthian, bultmannian, lutheran, calvinist, or a hodgepodge of them all!!

Another thing is Theology tends to skew how one understands the Bible, you tend to read it through your own theology.

Is it impossible to believe in miracles today (as Brunner and Bultmann assert?). If it is then isn't the Resurrection a miracle? Bultmann interprets it as Christ was raised in the disciples hearts, not a physical resurrection. How does one become able to believe in miracles, in this day and age? How important is it to believe them literally? There are a those who would say Jesus didn't walk on the water, he was standing on a sandbank under the water, and that Jesus didn't really multiple two fishes and five loaves to feed 5000 people, what happened was he inspired people to share what they had brought. Is it ok to believe that, or must we believe them literally? What about the resurrection? This is all said to be the impact of the Enlightenment. Despite all my theological reading I am still finding it really hard to believe. The church isn't exactly always a welcoming place for people who continue to struggle with believing.

Everything is possible with God. But first give God what is His.

Wondering about the worth of Theology.

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