is the Son the Father?

solid_core said:

To talk about salvation and gospel you need to understand who God is. Or where else you want to begin?

Click to expand...

In general, yes. But why would you need to understand it into the detail we're discussing it here? As I said, for salvation it's important to know that Jesus is God. But whether Jesus is triune or whatever... how is that important? The Bible doesn't even contain the word "trinity", it's a word man created to describe the nature of God. The Bible itself doesn't give this topic much importance, and when you read all the letters of Paul you will notice that he never tries to explain it either. Christ in us, we in Christ. Christ in the Father as the Father in Christ. Can we comprehend it by logical thinking? Not really, but that's not even necessary.
When we tell people about Jesus and the gospel we don't need to explain the essence of God into such detail. God's the creator of the universe and He Himself died in order to enable us to have a relationship with Him.
Of course talking about the understanding of the trinity within a community like this can be gainful for some believers, but if you re-read this discussion you will see why I called it "argy-bargy".

solid_core said:

BTW, most current discussions are just some uninteresting American politics or covid.

Click to expand...

That's true

Father, Son and, Holy Spirit are consubstantial, co-eternal and co-equal. It is the operation which makes them distinct.

This is what I understand about Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons with same nature. Father created all created things through Son. Among the three Persons, Father is invisible even to Angels and it is Son who makes physical appearance to us, humans. It was Son who spoke to Adam, wrestled with Jacob, appeared in fire and cloud before Israelites etc. in OT. Holy spirit shapes the future events and guides our thoughts.

Two of the three visitors of Abraham were angels on the behalf of Father and Holy Spirit; so were the dove and the voice "this is my son" at the Baptism. The terms "father" and "son" do not have the earthly meaning - they mean the second person of Trinity is obedient to the first person.

Sabellianism - Wikipedia

To answer OP, yes, Father and Son are same in terms of their Nature but are different in terms of operation. Son and Son alone was crucified - neither Father nor Holy Spirit

Jesusthekingofking said:

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

It simply means the Originator of everything or another way of putting it is "“architect of the ages.”" What is the meaning of “Everlasting Father” in Isaiah 9:6? | GotQuestions.org

read to here.

Acts 1
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Jesus clearly says, he does not know when his Second Coming will be.

But, our Father knows.

Jesusthekingofking said:

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

I absolutely don't have the slightest idea. Even after it's been explained to me several times. Making my brain hurt too lol

Rose2020 said:

I absolutely don't have the slightest idea. Even after it's been explained to me several times. Making my brain hurt too lol

Click to expand...

Understanding God's Love with the heart is much more important than trying to fathom God with your head. Especially when it hurts !!!

" He who has seen me has seen the Father.... "

Jesusthekingofking said:

So what's the answer? Yes or no?

Click to expand...

Simple, The Father knows, The Son does not know, thus they are not the same person.

I forget do they think Jesus is the Son of God or The Father?


1 John 4:15

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.


1 John 5:1

Faith in the Incarnate Son of God

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.


1 John 5:5

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


1 John 5:20

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


Hebrews 4:14

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

2 Corinthians 1:19

For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”


Romans 1:4

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.


Acts 9:20

At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.


John 20:31

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


Mark 1:1

The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,


Matthew 26:63

But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”





UPC has to read the Father into the incarnation texts.

Carl Emerson said:

" He who has seen me has seen the Father.... "

Click to expand...

speaks of God's Character.

Personally I think we try to systematise the understanding of the Mysteries of God.

The terms Father and Son are used by Jesus but this does not indicate the total truth of His Majesty or inter-relationship.

He expects us to relate to God-like qualities of good human fathers but no earthly father is within a bulls roar of the vastness of His Love.

So we present our formulas based on human knowledge when He is wonderfully and totally beyond what we could ask or think.

Jesusthekingofking said:

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

Greek Septuagint ( from Orthodox Study Bible):

Is 9:5 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. His name will be called Angel of the Great Council, for I shall bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health by Him.

6. Great shall be His government, and His peace there is no end. His peace shall be upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order and establish with righteousness and judgement, from that time forward and unto the ages of ages, The zeal of the Lord of hosts, shall perform this.

Aramaic:

9:6 For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder: and his name is called Wonderful Counsellor, The Mighty One, The Everlasting God, The Prince of Peace.

Jesusthekingofking said:

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

The Son said the Father is greater than Himself.
But Jesus is a father to us, isn’t He?

How about a brother?

Jesusthekingofking said:

So what's the answer? Yes or no?

Click to expand...

How does one know something and not know it at the same time?

"The Word was face to face with God."

Jesusthekingofking said:

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit is one God. This is what the church been teaching about the trinity correct?

but why Isaiah 9:6 seems to say the Son 'is' the Father?

Isaiah 9:6:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

Jesus is the Son is in the sense that he is the essence of being a chip off of the old block, where He shares the same nature with the Father. When light hits an someone, they adsorb certain spectrums of light so that we do not actually see them, but the spectrums of light that have bounced off of them, yet we still recognize what we see as being them. This is analogous to the relationship that the Son has with the Father, where the Son is the light that we see when we look at the Father, yet we still recognize what we see as the Father even though he is radiated from the Father. The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of God's glory and exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Torah, so the Torah is God's instructions for how to express His nature, and Jesus is the personification of the Torah/God's nature, which is why he said that the Torah testifies about him (John 5:39-40). Everything that Jesus did testified about who the Father is by putting His nature on display, which is why He is the Son of God, and why he could say that whoever has seen him as seen the Father (John 14:9). We can also be children of God when we partake in the divine nature in obedience to the Torah, while in 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not children of God because they are not testifying to the nations about God's nature. So being a child of God is also about being a chip off the old block, where we act as a light and a blessing to the nations through testifying about who He is by putting His nature on display.