Really? You think God is going to destroy this?

mkgal1 · Aug 22, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Not only did Christ come to pay for our sin debt, but He also came to reverse the curse.

True.

Part of the curse from Genesis was the ground was cursed:

Genesis 3:17 ~ And to Adam He said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life

After the flood, we read this (does this not seem to be a reversal of the original curse?):

Genesis 8:21 ~ When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said in His heart, “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from his youth. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.

parousia70 · Aug 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If you do not think it is literal, please tell us what you believe it means, and why.

2 peter 3:1-13 is self proving of it's non literal nature.

Peter here writes that the pre flood earth/heavens were completely destroyed, wiped out and then REPLACED by a brand new planet and cosmos post flood.
Again, the passage is self proving to be non literal.

What was indeed wiped out and replaced was the old Order of Human interaction, of covenant relationship with the living God. The planet and material cosmos remained the same, and was the EXACT SAME physical, material heavens and earth God created in Genesis, even though Peter poetically writes it was not.

And Peter says in the 1st century a similar wiping away of the old order of Covenant interaction was "about to happen", for the end of all things was at that time "at hand".

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase, we are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' and Peter didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

And still Again, as we can see, Full Preterism is Not Required in order for this completely orthodox understanding of the passing of Heaven and earth to be held by the Honest Christian.

BABerean2 · Aug 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
2 peter 3:1-13 is self proving of it's non literal nature.

Peter here writes that the pre flood earth/heavens were completely destroyed, wiped out and then REPLACED by a brand new planet and cosmos post flood.
Again, the passage is self proving to be non literal.

Are you saying there was no flood?

.

mkgal1 · Aug 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying there was no flood?

No. That's not what was written in Parousia70's post.

Maybe we can tackle it a bit at a time.

Do you believe this to be literal?

Parousia70 said:
Peter here writes that the pre flood earth/heavens were completely destroyed, wiped out and then REPLACED by a brand new planet and cosmos post flood.

Again, the passage is self proving to be non literal.

parousia70 · Aug 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying there was no flood?

Of course not.

I'm saying the physical Heavens and Earth that existed before the flood is the exact same material heavens and earth that exist now. I'm saying that the Heavens and earth that exist now is the exact same physical heavens and Earth God created In Genesis.

Do you disagree?

Timtofly · Aug 24, 2020

mkgal1 said:
No. That's not what was written in Parousia70's post.

Maybe we can tackle it a bit at a time.

Do you believe this to be literal?

Peter does not claim a new heavens and earth. Just that they physically changed. Less water above, and the land changed beneath. Obviously the "crust" was broken up and continents were formed.

Peter's warning was not symbolic of nor a literal new physical place. Claiming it is, self evidently not symbolic, does not make sense. A rubber tire is self evident it is not a tree. Why point out a contradiction and then claim there is no contradiction?

Peter literally claimed it was destroyed, because God said He would not destroy it again that way. A flood does not dissolve the earth. Now a consuming fire could physically leave only gas, which would remove all physical aspects even more that just water. If God removes all gas and starts over, it is a totally new cosmology. That is the physical view.

God's view is that everything changes instantly to something totally different that we cannot even imagine, before we can even blink an eye.

mkgal1 · Aug 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
Peter does not claim a new heavens and earth. Just that they physically changed. Less water above, and the land changed beneath. Obviously the "crust" was broken up and continents were formed.

Peter does claim there was a new heavens and earth after the flood.

Peter contrasted "the world of that time" and "the present heavens and earth" with the flood being the division between the two epochs:

2 Peter 3:5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

parousia70 · Aug 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
Peter does not claim a new heavens and earth.

Rather, he does EXACTLY that.

mkgal1 said:
Peter does claim there was a new heavens and earth after the flood.

Peter contrasted "the world of that time" and "the present heavens and earth" with the flood being the division between the two epochs:

2 Peter 3:5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Exactly. Peter speaks of two completely different worlds. To Complete, materially, cosmological, physically different Heavens and Earth's. One that existed before the flood, which perished, and one that was newly created, and existed after. - by which we know Peter was speaking metaphorically in this passage, as @Timtofly concurs.

Obviously the "crust" was broken up and continents were formed.

Pure speculation, and hardly "obvious"...
Let's stick to things you can prove from scripture and try to stay away from wild, speculative claims about things which are wholly unsupportable with scripture, ok?

Timtofly · Aug 24, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Peter does claim there was a new heavens and earth after the flood.

Peter contrasted "the world of that time" and "the present heavens and earth" with the flood being the division between the two epochs:

2 Peter 3:5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The world perished, not the heavens and earth. It is the same pre-flood heavens and earth that are still reserved for fire. There has been no fire since the Flood and no change in status until God declares it 1000 years from now.

Timtofly · Aug 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
Rather, he does EXACTLY that.
Exactly. Peter speaks of two completely different worlds. To Complete, materially, cosmological, physically different Heavens and Earth's. One that existed before the flood, which perished, and one that was newly created, and existed after. - by which we know Peter was speaking metaphorically in this passage, as @Timtofly concurs.
Pure speculation, and hardly "obvious"...
Let's stick to things you can prove from scripture and try to stay away from wild, speculative claims about things which are wholly unsupportable with scripture, ok?

God only created 1 reality and it has a finite span of 8 thousand years. That is God's Word and Plan. Genesis 1 and 2; Revelation 20-22 are the proof.

No evolution of billions of years, and no different creations.

parousia70 · Aug 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
God only created 1 reality and it has a finite span of 8 thousand years.

Rather, God Promised to be faithful to His creation for 1000 generations:
Deuteronomy 7:9
1 Chronicles 16:15
Psalm 105:8

We know from scripture that a "generation" is somewhere between 40-120 earth years, so we have, ordained by the Living God, a promise that His creation will continue for 40,000-120,000 earth years at a bare minimum.

We also have the sure and certain promise that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

World without end, amen.

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
2 peter 3:1-13 is self proving of it's non literal nature.

Peter here writes that the pre flood earth/heavens were completely destroyed, wiped out and then REPLACED by a brand new planet and cosmos post flood.
Again, the passage is self proving to be non literal.

What was indeed wiped out and replaced was the old Order of Human interaction, of covenant relationship with the living God. The planet and material cosmos remained the same, and was the EXACT SAME physical, material heavens and earth God created in Genesis, even though Peter poetically writes it was not.

And Peter says in the 1st century a similar wiping away of the old order of Covenant interaction was "about to happen", for the end of all things was at that time "at hand".

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase, we are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' and Peter didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

And still Again, as we can see, Full Preterism is Not Required in order for this completely orthodox understanding of the passing of Heaven and earth to be held by the Honest Christian.

Full Preterism has a habit of trying to explain away the literal truth of God's Word. You do not seem to have any grasp of the meaning of, and difference between, the Greek words gē and kosmos. Because of that you spiritualize away God's truth.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth (gē) standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (gē), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (ouranos) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (gē) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (gē), wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

It was the ungodly “world” (kosmos) that “perished” by “being overflowed with water,” it was obviously not the physical earth (gē). After all, it is still here! What is more, whilst it will be regenerated it will never perish away. The outer crust obviously needs regenerated to remove the corruption.

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
Rather, God Promised to be faithful to His creation for 1000 generations:
Deuteronomy 7:9
1 Chronicles 16:15
Psalm 105:8

We know from scripture that a "generation" is somewhere between 40-120 earth years, so we have, ordained by the Living God, a promise that His creation will continue for 40,000-120,000 earth years at a bare minimum.

We also have the sure and certain promise that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

World without end, amen.

He is going to regenerate the earth, not remove it. He is going to destroy the curse and renew it to its Pre-fall perfection.

parousia70 · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
He is going to regenerate the earth, not remove it. He is going to destroy the curse and renew it to its Pre-fall perfection.

If the earth, pre-fall was perfect, why the need for the tree of life in the garden? If the post-regenerated earth will likewise be perfect, again why the need for the tree of life there to "heal the nations"?
Why do nations still need healing there?

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
If the earth, pre-fall was perfect, why the need for the tree of life in the garden? If the post-regenerated earth will likewise be perfect, again why the need for the tree of life there to "heal the nations"?
Why do nations still need healing there?

It is talking about what Christ brings to His elect. You try to spiritualize what is literal, and literalize what is spiritual. Sad!

parousia70 · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Full Preterism has a habit of....

Maybe it does... and maybe you should take it up with a full preterist.

You do not seem to have any grasp of the meaning of, and difference between, the Greek words

gē and kosmos. Because of that you spiritualize away God's truth.

You are no literalist sg.
You spritualize myriad scriptures to suit your view. Your posts are chalk full of such spiritualization.
You are no literalist.

as for ge, does it always mean whole earth?

How about in Luke 4:25? - The whole earth?

or in Matthew 9:31 - entire planet?

or Matthew 27:45 -- Darkness over the entire globe for 3 hours?

really?

parousia70 · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You try to spiritualize what is literal, and literalize what is spiritual. Sad!

Actually you do that, but yes it is sad.

Anything I apply a literal or non literal meaning to, I have scriptural precedent and scriptural instruction to do so, while in contrast, you merely have your bias and man made tradition to support, with a total absence of scriptural precedent or instruction..

DavidPT · Aug 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
Rather, God Promised to be faithful to His creation for 1000 generations:
Deuteronomy 7:9
1 Chronicles 16:15
Psalm 105:8

We know from scripture that a "generation" is somewhere between 40-120 earth years, so we have, ordained by the Living God, a promise that His creation will continue for 40,000-120,000 earth years at a bare minimum.

We also have the sure and certain promise that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

World without end, amen.

Does this mean you are taking this particular thousand in the literal sense? What happens after 40,000-120,000 earth years? Eventually that span of time is going to come and go. What then?

parousia70 · Aug 25, 2020

DavidPT said:
Does this mean you are taking this particular thousand in the literal sense? What happens after 40,000-120,000 earth years? Eventually that span of time is going to come and go. What then?

The details of that have not been revealed to men.
Deuteronomy 29:29

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
Maybe it does... and maybe you should take it up with a full preterist.

You are no literalist sg.
You spritualize myriad scriptures to suit your view. Your posts are chalk full of such spiritualization.
You are no literalist.

as for ge, does it always mean whole earth?

How about in Luke 4:25? - The whole earth?

or in Matthew 9:31 - entire planet?

or Matthew 27:45 -- Darkness over the entire globe for 3 hours?

really?

Why not?

Really? You think God is going to destroy *this*?

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Really? You think God is going to destroy this?