Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

DavidPT · Aug 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where does it say Satan's little season is 3.5 years?

I would think Amils would want Scripture to say satan's little season is 3.5 years, lol, thus they should know where Scripture says that. Ummm---that would prove Amil not Premil. 3.5 years are the same as 42 months. Any period of time like that recorded in Revelation, it clearly occurs prior to Christ's coming, and not after, that's not even debatable. So once again, if any of these 3.5 year periods in question can be connected with satan's little season, that would undeniably debunk Premil in the process and would instead prove Amil.

jgr · Aug 24, 2020

jerry kelso said:
7. The remnant is always referred to the Jews not to Gentiles. Even in Romans 11 were the Jewish remnant.

The truth and reality that you persist in ignoring is that Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham from its beginning.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Those of Israel were known as Israelites, the term Paul uses in Romans 11:1.

Thus the remnant was comprised of believing Israelites i.e. descendants and non-descendants of Abraham.

But of course, dispensationalism must racialize God and His Word, for dispensationalism's very survival is dependent upon the perpetuation of its racialized fantasy and fallacy.

jerry kelso said:
Why? To keep the believing Jew alive to eventually fulfill their gifts and callings on rulership on earth. This is not the only reason but it is the main one conducive to the KoH Reign on earth.

The gifts and calling are for the Church, the redeemed from every nation, exclusively. Your attempted racialization detonates again.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God is not a racist.

jerry kelso · Aug 24, 2020

jgr said:
The truth and reality that you persist in ignoring is that Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

And those of Israel were known as Israelites, which is the term Paul uses in Romans 11:1.

Thus the remnant was comprised of believing Israelites i.e. descendants and non-descendants of Abraham.

But of course, dispensationalism must racialize God and His Word, for dispensationalism's very survival is dependent upon the perpetuation of its racialized fantasy and fallacy.

The gifts and calling are for the Church, the redeemed from every nation, exclusively. Your attempted racialization detonates again.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

jgr.

1. I don’t deny the scriptures about the strangers that sojourned in the land and proselyted in.
Abraham was a gentile to begin with from the land of Ur and came out of a land of Idolatry.
There were gentiles in the genealogy of David to Christ.

2. God said he would make a great nation which eventually became the twelve tribes of Israel. Out of this nations would be blessed.
Nothing that you mentioned kept them from being a separate physical nation apart from Gentile nations.
The church is a micro organism that is not a physical nation such as Israel.
Israel was in a full theocracy with God except in captivity.
The church made of believers everywhere are not in a full theocracy. We still have to adhere to our government.

3. I agree the church is called but that is not the context in Romans 11:25-29. He is speaking to physical Israel who is backslidden. The true church is not backslidden and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it Matthew 16:18.

4. All you want to do is replace Israel with the church so you can rule and reign in Israel.
The problem is you don’t believe anyone is going to rule and reign. You think we are just going to Heaven and then you are not sure after that.
The bottom line is you’re wrong on both accounts. You don’t understand context
and you refuse to believe some of the plainly spoken truths in the word of God.

5. One more thing, the remnant is not mentioned in Romans 11:25-29.
The believing remnant is not the enemy of the gospel or backslidden from God. So it could not be speaking of the believing remnant of Israel that is in the church in this passage.
Why do you make up falsehoods? Because you don’t understand context and refuse to.
Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 24, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

Listen, you can be untruthful, misleading, one sided, unfair, and mean spirited, or try to cutoff those who don’t believe you or your position all you want but that will not make you right.
Your accusation about escapism leading people to fall of it doesn’t happen is erroneous and not based on scripture.

God kept Noah from the destruction of the world for he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Yes he had to reserve the human race but in Lots day he said he couldn’t bring judgement on the city until the Righteous were out of there safely.

Even at 70 A. D. There are Jewish stories of those fleeing into Judea and Pelegrín and Petra and not being destroyed by the Romans. Isaiah says that in the end time some will escape to Jordan.
I respect Corrie Ten Boom and could understand her feelings about American Christians who believed in Pre trib that talked about missing the tribulation because they were persecuted so heavily by the Nazis and she also knew how unserious and weak many were as Christians in America
However. If that was here reason for believing in Post trib would be improper, and stereotypical to the excess.

American Christians are not immuned to being martyred today and it could get worse before Christ comes back whether pre,mid, or post.
Our country was birthed on God and country, but to make such a comparison of the degree of tribulation is like asking why does one Christian get persecuted more than another.
The Bible says we are to occupy til he comes.
We have to carry our cross and if that means we have to be martyred. Paul said, I die daily. Killed in the hearts spiritually and standing in jeopardy where they could be killed physically.

2. Pre- trib preachers preach to be saved, sanctified, and holy and ready for Christ return at any moment. Even early church fathers who basically believed in post rapture believed in Christ imminent return to go into the millennial. And yet you believe in millennial before the second coming of Christ.

More false accusations and zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence. This is your ongoing pattern. There is nothing to rebut apart from blatant ad hominem, wild speculations and private non-corroborative interpretation.

3. You believe that Satan is bound for a 1000 years now from what tempting people? The Bible calls him the tempter, not to mention he deceives all the time including the nations. In the millennial he will not be able to deceive the nations.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. He is a defeated foe through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The restraint spoken about in Revelation 20 simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. The heathen were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection; but now, a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) as he once did because we now have the truth as a result of the Church’s expansion into the nations.

4. The rapture description is the blessed hope but you want to make the description the blessed hope at the day of Wrath and that is not what 1Thessalonians4:15-17 describes.

It is both. The coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the believer, but a day of wrath for the wicked. That is why Jesus likened His return to the judgments in Noah's world and the city of Sodom. In all these: the elect were/are rescued in total, the wicked are destroyed in total. It's not hard to work out, if you do not have a defective theological agenda to justify.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

5. The blessings of the over comers in the whole church are in Heaven and can be attained only in Heaven before the second advent not the Holy that comes down to earth after theNew Heaven and New Earth are created.

From the first resurrection, the dead in Christ go immediately into the presence of God in heaven. But when Jesus returns He is going to destroy the wicked, regenerate this earth, and bring us back to the new earth to abide forever.

6. The time of the dead happens at the end of the tribulation Why? Because there are only dead martyrs to resurrect and they were the martyrs who didn’t take the mark of the beast or the number of his name etc. They sing the song of Moses and all the Lamb which is a good indicator they were believing Jews. This happens before the vials on the Beast kingdom worshippers.

There is one final future coming of Christ. To think otherwise is false expectation.

7. The remnant is always referred to the Jews not to Gentiles. Even in Romans 11 were the Jewish remnant. Why? To keep the believing Jew alive to eventually fulfill their gifts and callings on rulership on earth. This is not the only reason but it is the main one conducive to the KoH Reign on earth.

True Israel did not therefore go away. It recognized Israel’s Messiah and embraced Him as Lord. That spiritual company coalesced around John the Baptist. The prophet was called to be the forerunner of Christ. He introduced Him to Israel. His direct preaching separated that which was counterfeit from that which was real. He caused a dividing of the people by only baptizing those Israelis who were willing to “bring forth … fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8). Ben F Meyer writes: “The mission of the Baptist belonged to a scenario of fulfilment. His role was to assemble by baptism the remnant of Israel destined for cleansing and acquittal and so, climactically, for restoration” (The Judgment and Salvation of Israel).

After the cross, the congregation (or Church or ekklesia) of faithful old covenant Israel became the new covenant congregation (or Church or ekklesia). While overlapping two different eras, it was the exact same developing spiritual organism containing the exact same elect remnant, and more. The new spiritual community grew into a larger broader global entity. Steve Lehrer says about national Israel in the Old Testament: “They were always an unbelieving people as a whole (with a tiny remnant of believers always present). So, in one sense there never was a true people of God to ‘replace’, but there was an expectation of a true people of God that builds to a crescendo throughout the Old Testament and is finally satisfied in the New Testament. This true people of God actually love Him and are made up of Jews and Gentiles.”

Let us then have no doubt, the remnant of Israel continued. What is more, God remained faithful to His covenantal obligations to Israel during the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant through His preservation of an elect remnant within that overall nation. This was true believing Israel. This was God’s chosen people. God was as bound to them as He was any previous generation of believing Israel. When Jesus sent the 12 disciples out in Matthew 10:5-6, He declared: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Here we are confronted in the New Testament with the Hebraic shepherd/sheep symbolism. The same familiar imagery carries over from the Old to the New. This reinforces the continuity of thought, faith, people and purpose. While the Messiah came to usher in a new economy, nothing changed in regard to the intimacy God shares with His true people. Our Lord’s earthly mission was initially and primarily, but not exclusively, concentrated upon the lost sheep of the house of Israel. His attention and principal mission was to firstly evangelize them before reaching out to the Gentiles. God in His infinite wisdom chose to work through one lone nation before the cross. That was His divine will. We see that in His earthly mission (which was still under the old covenant). Nevertheless, that focus was broadened out after His death to embrace all nations.

As in the Old Testament, there was the sporadic Gentile conversion before the cross. But they were the exception rather than the rule. When a Gentile “woman of Canaan” approached Him in Matthew 15:22-28, He explained: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (v24). Not taking no for an answer, she continued to implore Him for mercy. Finally, in verse 28, Jesus said to the woman, “O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

While Dispensationalists are fixated with all things biologically Jewish, they seem blind to the fact that the infant New Testament Church was indeed faithful Israel. Christ’s early followers consisted of the elect remnant of Israel. This was the enlightened congregation of Jewish believers from among wider national Israel. They were the Israeli community who believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

This company contained people like Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents Zechariah and Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna who were waiting faithfully in the temple for Jesus, and early disciples like Peter, James and John. Many Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah and embraced Him during His earthly ministry. In fact, they came to Him in great multitudes. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who were both believed to be members of the ruling body of the Jews – the Sanhedrin, trusted in Him. Faithful Israel also included that Hebrew of the Hebrews the apostle Paul. The fledgling early Church overwhelmingly consisted of true believing Israelites. This was the ongoing righteous remnant of Israel. Those Jews who rejected Jesus were apostate Israel. They preferred to remain in their sins and go to a lost eternity.

The 12 apostles were Jewish. The New Testament writers were Jewish. The 70 disciples that were sent out to evangelize Israel were likewise. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the new covenant congregation. That small faithful band of Israelis that existed after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ became the New Testament Church, and became later known as Christians (Acts 11:26). It was that faithful number who Jesus used to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19).

The 120, who met on the Jewish festival of Pentecost, were of solid Israeli stock. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Spirit had fell, his audience was devout Jews “out of every nation under heaven” who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. That is why he addressed them as “Ye men of Israel” (Acts 2:5). Personally, three thousand of them experience salvation. Not long after that, God saved five thousand Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 4:4). Following that, there was “multitudes both of men and women” who “were the more added to the Lord” in Acts 5:14. There was a mighty ingathering of Jews in the early New Testament Church.

8. Tribulation of Jacob’s trouble is talking about a specific event not everyday life now.
2Timothy 2:12 is suffering now to rule and reign in the future kingdom.

I showed you that "Jacob's troubles" occurred thousands of years ago but you suitably avoided the glaring evidence. You have to. To acknowledge the truth would force you to immediately abandon Pretrib and Premil error.

There is nothing else you are furnishing us with but personal opinion.

9. One more thing, to say we have no shred of evidence completely is a ball face lie. I don’t believe that about you you shouldn’t of me. That’s like saying we don’t agree on anything in scripture at all..

10. Jesus plainly promised the Jewish nation to rule and reign forever (David as their King and the 22 apostles judging the 12 tribes of Israel) at the Head of the nations with Christ ruling the whole earth. We are promised as the church to be raptured to Heaven during the tribulation and be in his army at Armageddon to the Mt. of Olives. We will rule and reign over all the earth in different place depending on our stewardship now.
And after all Israel’s history and her being a target and hated now that she has no significance and Christ ruling from there and they with Christ.
That borders on the high and mighty of Anti-Semitism.
The Jews were high and mighty through ignorance of what the church really was.
But with this stinking thing that everything has to be under the name of the church solely with Gentiles is Ludicrous. That is not what the scripture says.
You want to say everything is spiritual dna and that is why the physical Jew can’t rule at the head of the nations. So who is? The church? Well the church believers that are truly saved wouldn’t qualify either because they are going to rule and reign too physically.
Unless you’re like some who think we are going straight to Heaven and do whatever, of which they don’t have a clue.
Jerry Kelso

The Bible student will know that the answer is crystal clear in Scripture. Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost – irrespective of race, genetic DNA, color, gender, birthday or social status (Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). What is more, He came to unite not divide. He united the believing Jews with the believing Gentiles (John 10:14-16, Romans 11:17-24, 12:5 Ephesians 2:10-19, 3:4-6, 4:16, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27, Galatians 3:28-29 and Colossians 3:11&15).

The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

Timtofly · Aug 25, 2020

DavidPT said:
I would think Amils would want Scripture to say satan's little season is 3.5 years, lol, thus they should know where Scripture says that. Ummm---that would prove Amil not Premil. 3.5 years are the same as 42 months. Any period of time like that recorded in Revelation, it clearly occurs prior to Christ's coming, and not after, that's not even debatable. So once again, if any of these 3.5 year periods in question can be connected with satan's little season, that would undeniably debunk Premil in the process and would instead prove Amil.

It would also mean that at the cross there was an OT resurrection of physical bodies and they still live on earth today. All the OT prophets, Daniel, some of the kings, Abraham, they all currently live in Jerusalem. They have for 1990 years.

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
More false accusations and zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence. This is your ongoing pattern. There is nothing to rebut apart from blatant ad hominem, wild speculations and private non-corroborative interpretation.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. He is a defeated foe through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The restraint spoken about in Revelation 20 simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. The heathen were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection; but now, a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) as he once did because we now have the truth as a result of the Church’s expansion into the nations.

It is both. The coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the believer, but a day of wrath for the wicked. That is why Jesus likened His return to the judgments in Noah's world and the city of Sodom. In all these: the elect were/are rescued in total, the wicked are destroyed in total. It's not hard to work out, if you do not have a defective theological agenda to justify.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

From the first resurrection, the dead in Christ go immediately into the presence of God in heaven. But when Jesus returns He is going to destroy the wicked, regenerate this earth, and bring us back to the new earth to abide forever.

There is one final future coming of Christ. To think otherwise is false expectation.

True Israel did not therefore go away. It recognized Israel’s Messiah and embraced Him as Lord. That spiritual company coalesced around John the Baptist. The prophet was called to be the forerunner of Christ. He introduced Him to Israel. His direct preaching separated that which was counterfeit from that which was real. He caused a dividing of the people by only baptizing those Israelis who were willing to “bring forth … fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8). Ben F Meyer writes: “The mission of the Baptist belonged to a scenario of fulfilment. His role was to assemble by baptism the remnant of Israel destined for cleansing and acquittal and so, climactically, for restoration” (The Judgment and Salvation of Israel).

After the cross, the congregation (or Church or ekklesia) of faithful old covenant Israel became the new covenant congregation (or Church or ekklesia). While overlapping two different eras, it was the exact same developing spiritual organism containing the exact same elect remnant, and more. The new spiritual community grew into a larger broader global entity. Steve Lehrer says about national Israel in the Old Testament: “They were always an unbelieving people as a whole (with a tiny remnant of believers always present). So, in one sense there never was a true people of God to ‘replace’, but there was an expectation of a true people of God that builds to a crescendo throughout the Old Testament and is finally satisfied in the New Testament. This true people of God actually love Him and are made up of Jews and Gentiles.”

Let us then have no doubt, the remnant of Israel continued. What is more, God remained faithful to His covenantal obligations to Israel during the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant through His preservation of an elect remnant within that overall nation. This was true believing Israel. This was God’s chosen people. God was as bound to them as He was any previous generation of believing Israel. When Jesus sent the 12 disciples out in Matthew 10:5-6, He declared: “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Here we are confronted in the New Testament with the Hebraic shepherd/sheep symbolism. The same familiar imagery carries over from the Old to the New. This reinforces the continuity of thought, faith, people and purpose. While the Messiah came to usher in a new economy, nothing changed in regard to the intimacy God shares with His true people. Our Lord’s earthly mission was initially and primarily, but not exclusively, concentrated upon the lost sheep of the house of Israel. His attention and principal mission was to firstly evangelize them before reaching out to the Gentiles. God in His infinite wisdom chose to work through one lone nation before the cross. That was His divine will. We see that in His earthly mission (which was still under the old covenant). Nevertheless, that focus was broadened out after His death to embrace all nations.

As in the Old Testament, there was the sporadic Gentile conversion before the cross. But they were the exception rather than the rule. When a Gentile “woman of Canaan” approached Him in Matthew 15:22-28, He explained: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (v24). Not taking no for an answer, she continued to implore Him for mercy. Finally, in verse 28, Jesus said to the woman, “O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

While Dispensationalists are fixated with all things biologically Jewish, they seem blind to the fact that the infant New Testament Church was indeed faithful Israel. Christ’s early followers consisted of the elect remnant of Israel. This was the enlightened congregation of Jewish believers from among wider national Israel. They were the Israeli community who believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

This company contained people like Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist and his parents Zechariah and Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna who were waiting faithfully in the temple for Jesus, and early disciples like Peter, James and John. Many Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah and embraced Him during His earthly ministry. In fact, they came to Him in great multitudes. Both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who were both believed to be members of the ruling body of the Jews – the Sanhedrin, trusted in Him. Faithful Israel also included that Hebrew of the Hebrews the apostle Paul. The fledgling early Church overwhelmingly consisted of true believing Israelites. This was the ongoing righteous remnant of Israel. Those Jews who rejected Jesus were apostate Israel. They preferred to remain in their sins and go to a lost eternity.

The 12 apostles were Jewish. The New Testament writers were Jewish. The 70 disciples that were sent out to evangelize Israel were likewise. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the new covenant congregation. That small faithful band of Israelis that existed after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ became the New Testament Church, and became later known as Christians (Acts 11:26). It was that faithful number who Jesus used to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19).

The 120, who met on the Jewish festival of Pentecost, were of solid Israeli stock. When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost after the Holy Spirit had fell, his audience was devout Jews “out of every nation under heaven” who had gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. That is why he addressed them as “Ye men of Israel” (Acts 2:5). Personally, three thousand of them experience salvation. Not long after that, God saved five thousand Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 4:4). Following that, there was “multitudes both of men and women” who “were the more added to the Lord” in Acts 5:14. There was a mighty ingathering of Jews in the early New Testament Church.

I showed you that "Jacob's troubles" occurred thousands of years ago but you suitably avoided the glaring evidence. You have to. To acknowledge the truth would force you to immediately abandon Pretrib and Premil error.

There is nothing else you are furnishing us with but personal opinion.

The Bible student will know that the answer is crystal clear in Scripture. Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost – irrespective of race, genetic DNA, color, gender, birthday or social status (Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). What is more, He came to unite not divide. He united the believing Jews with the believing Gentiles (John 10:14-16, Romans 11:17-24, 12:5 Ephesians 2:10-19, 3:4-6, 4:16, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27, Galatians 3:28-29 and Colossians 3:11&15).

The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

sovereign grace,

1. You don’t understand Hebraic perspective.
Do you really think hour long posts scare me or prove anything? No
Since you can’t comprehend too well maybe we should go with one point at a time.

2. I proved in the book of Revelation alone there are no living believers that go up in the air at all at the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6 who are martyrs before the last 7 vials Revelation 15:1-2;16-1-2.
That First Resurrection is stated in Revelation 20:4-6 but actually happens before the last vials.
It is called the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

3. Revelation 6:9-11 are the first martyrs of the tribulation listed as souls under the altar.
Revelation 7 has the 144,000 who are sealed and they are a special company that is protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4.
They are in the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne Revelation 14:1-5. Which is approximately in the middle of the tribulation.
Revelation 7:13-14.
Revelation 11 has the two witnesses and they are killed after 3.5 years or 1260 days. They are resurrected to Heaven alone.
You have saints being martyred during the Antichrist reign Revelation 13:7.
In Revelation 14:13 it says, Blessed are the dead henceforth.
The last believers company are in Revelation 15:1-2. They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. This shows specifically that they are Jews under the New Covenant.
They are the same believers mentioned in Revelation 20:4 who don’t take the mark of the beast and who will rule and reign for a 1000 years.
But this Resurrection is made up only of dead believers. It is the same as the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

Souls under the altar, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses, Martyrs at the hand of Antichrist and those that sing the song of Moses and the Lamb are all martyrs.
They all go to Heaven with no living believers.

4. It’s your turn to address only the dead company of believers
that are raptured to Heaven and show where the living believers are at that are supposed to be resurrected with the dead believers.
To be fair you cannot rebut anything I said and you cannot spiritualize or try to divulge any statements on scriptures like
Revelation 14:14-20.
Nothing but scriptural facts showing an actual post rapture in Revelation alone. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

jgr said:
The truth and reality that you persist in ignoring is that Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham from its beginning.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Those of Israel were known as Israelites, the term Paul uses in Romans 11:1.

Thus the remnant was comprised of believing Israelites i.e. descendants and non-descendants of Abraham.

But of course, dispensationalism must racialize God and His Word, for dispensationalism's very survival is dependent upon the perpetuation of its racialized fantasy and fallacy.

The gifts and calling are for the Church, the redeemed from every nation, exclusively. Your attempted racialization detonates again.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God is not a racist.

jgr,

1. You are right God is not a racist.
Now we get to the heart of what your posts are about.

2. Ezekiel 18 God showed he wasn’t racist. The Jews thought they should be exempt from their sin because they were physical Jews with the covenants. God said it didn’t matter, unless they repent he would remember their righteousness no more.
To add fuel on the fire God said if the sinner in the world repents he would save them. Jews thought that was unfair and God said no.

3. God made an eternal promise to Israel about the land and the kingdom if they repent and become saved.
You don’t like it because the church was never promised this and so you are the one who thinks it is unfair.
That thinking is racist and Anti- Semitic.
This is why you have to believe science over the Bible and deny eternal covenants to Israel apart from the church age saints, and thus making the doctrine of replacement theology which is unscriptural. Jerry kelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

1. You don’t understand Hebraic perspective.
Do you really think hour long posts scare me or prove anything? No
Since you can’t comprehend too well maybe we should go with one point at a time.

2. I proved in the book of Revelation alone there are no living believers that go up in the air at all at the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6 who are martyrs before the last 7 vials Revelation 15:1-2;16-1-2.
That First Resurrection is stated in Revelation 20:4-6 but actually happens before the last vials.
It is called the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

3. Revelation 6:9-11 are the first martyrs of the tribulation listed as souls under the altar.
Revelation 7 has the 144,000 who are sealed and they are a special company that is protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4.
They are in the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne Revelation 14:1-5. Which is approximately in the middle of the tribulation.
Revelation 7:13-14.
Revelation 11 has the two witnesses and they are killed after 3.5 years or 1260 days. They are resurrected to Heaven alone.
You have saints being martyred during the Antichrist reign Revelation 13:7.
In Revelation 14:13 it says, Blessed are the dead henceforth.
The last believers company are in Revelation 15:1-2. They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. This shows specifically that they are Jews under the New Covenant.
They are the same believers mentioned in Revelation 20:4 who don’t take the mark of the beast and who will rule and reign for a 1000 years.
But this Resurrection is made up only of dead believers. It is the same as the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

Souls under the altar, the 144,000, the Two Witnesses, Martyrs at the hand of Antichrist and those that sing the song of Moses and the Lamb are all martyrs.
They all go to Heaven with no living believers.

4. It’s your turn to address only the dead company of believers
that are raptured to Heaven and show where the living believers are at that are supposed to be resurrected with the dead believers.
To be fair you cannot rebut anything I said and you cannot spiritualize or try to divulge any statements on scriptures like
Revelation 14:14-20.
Nothing but scriptural facts showing an actual post rapture in Revelation alone. Jerry kelso

This is all avoiding the keys points of Pretrib. I think YOU think that failing to provide hard evidence to support the Pretrib theory is smart, or that it may convince someone of the validity of Pretrib, but this shows how bereft your doctrine is of scriptural support. Until you actually show us your supposed Pretrib rapture, your 7 years trib and 3rd coming in Revelation, we have the right to dismiss it as a man-made invention.

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
This is all avoiding the keys points of Pretrib. I think YOU think that failing to provide hard evidence to support the Pretrib theory is smart, or that it may convince someone of the validity of Pretrib, but this shows how bereft your doctrine is of scriptural support. Until you actually shows us your supposed Pretrib rapture, your 7 years trib and 3rd coming in Revelation, we have the right to dismiss it as a man-made invention.

sovereign grace,
Just what I thought you can’t do it and you cannot help but criticize and post a high and mighty attitude. Spare me your nonsense and try again. Jerry kelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
jgr,

1. You are right God is not a racist.
Now we get to the heart of what your posts are about.

2. Ezekiel 18 God showed he wasn’t racist. The Jews thought they should be exempt from their sin because they were physical Jews with the covenants. God said it didn’t matter, unless they repent he would remember their righteousness no more.
To add fuel on the fire God said if the sinner in the world repents he would save them. Jews thought that was unfair and God said no.

3. God made an eternal promise to Israel about the land and the kingdom if they repent and become saved.
You don’t like it because the church was never promised this and so you are the one who thinks it is unfair.
That thinking is racist and Anti- Semitic.
This is why you have to believe science over the Bible and deny eternal covenants to Israel apart from the church age saints, and thus making the doctrine of replacement theology which is unscriptural. Jerry kelso

The English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.

Have Israel possessed Canaan in an unbroken endless manner since they entered the Promised Land?

Also, where under the new covenant is there the slightest allusion to land promises that need to be fulfilled?

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,
Just what I thought you can’t do it and you cannot help but criticize and post a high and mighty attitude. Spare me your nonsense and try again. Jerry kelso

I know it is frustrating having no biblical support, but tone your language down.

For the millionth time: can you show us one Scripture (in Revelation or elsewhere) that clearly describes your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Can you show us one single early church writer that taught your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I know it is frustrating having no biblical support, but tone your language down.

For the millionth time: can you show us one Scripture (in Revelation or elsewhere) that clearly describes your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Can you show us one single early church writer that taught your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

sovereign grace,

Once again you want to control everything.
You can’t do a simple thing when I asked nicely. You still want me to answer all your questions but you don’t want to reciprocate and you don’t want a serious and honest dialogue. Try again. Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

Once again you want to control everything.
You can’t do a simple thing when I asked nicely. You still want me to answer all your questions but you don’t want to reciprocate and you don’t want a serious and honest dialogue. Try again. Jerry Kelso

How about actually showing us where your doctrine is in the Bible? That is 101 Christianity. Why do you even come on a forum like this and force your beliefs upon us if you are unable to show us it is in the Bible?

This is a fair enquiry, but one you repeatedly take offense at (for some reason).

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
How about actually showing us where your doctrine is in the Bible? That is 101 Christianity. Why do you even come on a forum like this and force your beliefs upon us if you are unable to show us it is in the Bible?

This is a fair enquiry, but one you repeatedly take offense at (for some reason).

sovereign grace,

1.I already gave you scriptural fact in post 446#.
You are breaking the rules and you are supposed to give scriptural facts. Yo are not being nice and fair. Try again. Jerry Kelso.

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

1.I already gave you scriptural fact in post 446#.
You are breaking the rules and you are supposed to give scriptural facts. Yo are not being nice and fair. Try again. Jerry Kelso.

No you did not! You know it, and everyone else does! Where exactly is the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ, in Revelation? Your post is as clear as mud.

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No you did not! You know it, and everyone else does! Where exactly is the rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ, in Revelation? Your post is as clear as mud.

sovereign grace,

How can you be so blatantly untruthful? You may not agree with my position and the scriptures I gave but you are supposed to give your proof in the book of Revelation only and not spiritualize the passages like Revelation 14:14-21.
Do you really think I am lying about the companies that I showed that were martyred and rose again with no living believers? Jerrykelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

How can you be so blatantly untruthful? You may not agree with my position and the scriptures I gave but you are supposed to give your proof in the book of Revelation only and not spiritualize the passages like Revelation 14:14-21.
Do you really think I am lying about the companies that I showed that were martyred and rose again with no living believers? Jerrykelso

Let us make this simple:

Where is the Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

1.I already gave you scriptural fact in post 446#.
You are breaking the rules and you are supposed to give scriptural facts. Yo are not being nice and fair. Try again. Jerry Kelso.

Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of end-time events, but is a series of recapitulations or retelling of events that culminate in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 6-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

John’s attention is then brought to wrath aspect of the day of the Lord. Firstly, we see the heavenly army of God described. Verses 11- say, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:8-10 declares, “And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

jerry kelso · Aug 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of end-time events, but is a series of recapitulations or retelling of events that culminate in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 6-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

John’s attention is then brought to wrath aspect of the day of the Lord. Firstly, we see the heavenly army of God described. Verses 11- say, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:8-10 declares, “And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

sovereign grace,

1. You were only supposed to give facts that show plainly living and dead believers being raptured together and you didn’t.
You didn’t really mention the Martyrs directly and what believers are being caught up with them.
You have to try and match up and move around passages to the nth degree excessively.
You have not shown a post rapture of living believers and dead believers.
You assume a General Resurrection but assuming is not a fact.
Your posts are disingenuous, dishonest, disgraceful and outright not factual to the challenge and truth of scripture. Jerry Kelso

sovereigngrace · Aug 25, 2020

jerry kelso said:
sovereign grace,

1. You were only supposed to give facts that show plainly living and dead believers being raptured together and you didn’t.
You didn’t really mention the Martyrs directly and what believers are being caught up with them.
You have to try and match up and move around passages to the nth degree excessively.
You have not shown a post rapture of living believers and dead believers.
You assume a General Resurrection but assuming is not a fact.
Your posts are disingenuous, dishonest, disgraceful and outright not factual to the challenge and truth of scripture. Jerry Kelso

Stop denying the extra-biblical nature of the Pretrib theory. Your paradigm has been laid bare and you have no answer. You could not even answer my simple question:

Where is the Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

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