Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

The Righterzpen · Aug 22, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you sure? Not how I heard it.
I thought there was a controversy about the lethal injection. That in some cases chemicals were being combined to cause a death with incredible pain rather than a quick death sleep. The recipient being unable to cry out due to the mix. (a paralysis drug included)

I think you're thinking of someone else. Timothy McVeigh maybe? He was executed by lethal injection. Wisconsin (where Dahmer was) didn't have the death penalty.

I'd thought Dahmer was executed too. I had to go look it up myself.

GenemZ · Aug 22, 2020

Rose2020 said:
Uhh,.. Jesus was physically dead for days before He physically rose again.

And? The real question is?

When does the Bible say that Jesus said "It is finished?"

Was it after he rose on the third day?

The Greek uses a tense that would render it closer to this meaning:

"Tetelstai!" "It was just finished, with the results that it continues to be finished forever!"

That was said and done before he breathed his last breath. His physical death took place because his work was finished. He had already paid the penalty for our sins.

That penalty was?

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?"). Mat 27:26

Between what is spoken in Psalm 22:1-2, and in Matthew 27:26? We learn that He kept on screaming that out. It was not simply said one time. For, while he was bearing our sins he was being forsaken by God!

Keep in mind, please. His perfect humanity did not make a peep while being beaten and scourged.. nor, when nailed to the Cross. It was only in the third hour on the Cross, when our sins began to be poured onto him, that he cried out in agony. His agony was not from all the physical abuse he endured. His agony was to become forsaken by God. Forsaken, so we would not have to be forsaken by God.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death. Our physical death is the result of being fallen. Being the outcome of being born spiritually dead, because we are born with a sin nature.

grace and peace.............!

April_Rose · Aug 22, 2020

genez said:
And? The real question is?

When does the Bible say that Jesus said "It is finished?"

Was it after he rose on the third day?

The Greek uses a tense that would render it closer to this meaning:

"Tetelstai!" "It was just finished, with the results that it continues to be finished forever!"

That was said and done before he breathed his last breath. His physical death took place because his work was finished. He had already paid the penalty for our sins.

That penalty was?

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?"). Mat 27:26

Between what is spoken in Psalm 22:1-2, and in Matthew 27:26? We learn that He kept on screaming that out. It was not simply said one time. For, while he was bearing our sins he was being forsaken by God!

Keep in mind, please. His perfect humanity did not make a peep while being beaten and scourged.. nor, when nailed to the Cross. It was only in the third hour on the Cross, when our sins began to be poured onto him, that he cried out in agony. His agony was not from all the physical abuse he endured. His agony was to become forsaken by God. Forsaken, so we would not have to be forsaken by God.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death. Our physical death is the result of being fallen. Being the outcome of being born spiritually dead, because we are born with a sin nature.

grace and peace.............!

Okay so maybe He suffered both on our behalf but He still suffered a physical death.

Running2win · Aug 22, 2020

genez said:
Directly? It does not say it that way. It only indicates it.

Just like Adam was told he would die in the same day if he ate the fruit.

He did die. Not physically.

Where does it say he died spiritually? In a black and white way? Requiring no insight? For, after eating he was physically alive and running to find some fig leaves.

But, he was told in the day he ate? He would die.

Hint... the Hebrew tells us something that most translations chose to ignore ...

In the Hebrew is states: "In dying you shall die." It does not say die, nor surely die. It says, "in dying you shall die." Two deaths. Not simply one.

So when Adam ate? He died instantly. Died spiritually. He now needed a redeemer.

The result of Adam's spiritual death? Hundreds of years later he finally died physically.

Yet? In the day he ate? He died.

So you can ask me? Where does it say directly, "spiritually?"

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound
more and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Phlpns 1:9

What told Columbus that the world was not flat? Was it something spelled out for him in black and white? No.. It was insight that came from what he could see. While many did not agree with him.

grace and peace........

IMO, his soul died because Scripture talks of the need to have our souls saved. He needed to be born again then, and have faith in the redeemer to come-just like we look backwards.

IMO, the body did start to die then-just as their eyes were opened, the life force of their bodies started to fade. That is what God meant, and what you just confirmed means-which I did not know. One slow death-in the process of dying you will die... So God was focusing on the physical aspect.

And we can conclude also that the 1000 years are as one day to God is literal too- and He has a 6000 year program (modeled after the creation week) before the 1000 year reign (rest) of the Messiah. All the people in the first world died before 1000 years, this is confirmation, IMO. And we are approaching this 6000 year mark very quickly!

Thanks for the meaning of the Hebrew there! :oldthumbsup:

I enjoy your insights.

5So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance

In the Hebrew is states: "In dying you shall die." It does not say die, nor surely die. It says, "in dying you shall die." Two deaths. Not simply one.

GenemZ · Aug 22, 2020

Rose2020 said:
Okay so maybe He suffered both on our behalf but He still suffered a physical death.

One death saved us from our sins. That was completed on the Cross before his physical death. For a dead man can not shout out... "It is finished!'

His other death (physical ) led the way to paving the way to remove our present bodies and giving us new ones. When you are resurrected you will not have the same body you have now, minus your sin nature. It will be an entirely new awesome experience to find ourselves in such a fantastic masterpiece of the Lord.

April_Rose · Aug 22, 2020

genez said:
One death saved us from our sins. That was completed on the Cross before his physical death. For a dead man can not shout out... "It is finished!'

The other physical death led the way to paving the way to remove our present bodies and giving us new ones. When you are resurrected you will not have the same body you have now, minus your sin nature. It will be an entirely new awesome experience to find ourselves in such a fantastic masterpiece of the Lord.

You didn't say that before though. You claimed that He never had a physical death. Or at least that's what it sounded like.

GenemZ · Aug 22, 2020

Running2win said:
IMO, his soul died because Scripture talks of the need to have our souls saved. He needed to be born again then, and have faith in the redeemer to come-just like we look backwards.

Remember Jesus telling the young man who wanted to go home and bury his father first before he would follow Jesus?

Jesus told him.. "Let the dead bury their own dead...

Why dead? Unbeliever's soul has no human spirit. He is only body and soul. When born again he will become body, soul, and human spirit. Those in the church are body, soul, human spirit.. and given as a "gift" the indwelling Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was bearing our sins his soul was cut off from being in union with the Father and Holy Spirit. His own Deity remained in him, but became grieved like we can grieve the Holy Spirit when we sin. Jesus' soul was forsaken and cut off from being spiritual.

Jesus did not need to be born again. For Jesus had no sin nature. All the sin he bore the penalty for were our sins, not his own.

After the last sin of mankind was imputed to the Cross? No more sins left? Jesus having remained sinless through the ordeal, simply returned to being spiritual. For there no more sins to impute to cut him off from God! He always remained sinless. He refused to react arrogantly while he was being abused having poured on his body our sins. Sins that he saw as the most repulsive thing possible. It would be like you being told to jump into an open septic tank and thrown straws and commanded to drink! Yet, it was even much worse to his perfect righteousness. We can not fathom how repulsive it was to be baptized into our septic tank of sins for our perfect Lord

GenemZ · Aug 22, 2020

Rose2020 said:
You didn't say that before though. You claimed that He never had a physical death. Or at least that's what it sounded like.

No .. I said on the Cross he experienced a spiritual death. He was forsaken by God.

After that death was over? "It is finished!" Then he died physically. But not before the penalty for our sins (separation from God) were bore on the same body that was to die physically shortly after.

If it was not paid for while he was yet physically alive? His last words would have read differently. He would have said just before dying physically... "Its about to be finished!"

Then, after rising from physical death three days later... declaring: "Now it has been finished!"

But, that's not how it happened. He declared.. "it was just finished and remains finished forever," before he physically died.

It takes a while for this to sink in. It did with me.

RDKirk · Aug 22, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you sure? Not how I heard it.
I thought there was a controversy about the lethal injection. That in some cases chemicals were being combined to cause a death with incredible pain rather than a quick death sleep. The recipient being unable to cry out due to the mix. (a paralysis drug included)

He was never sentenced to death. Wisconsin does not have the death sentence. He was beaten to death by another prisoner, Christopher Scarver.

Dkh587 · Aug 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:

And "... the King, the Lord Almighty." ??? (vs. 5)

Click to expand...

Saint Steven said:
The passage says nothing about an angel.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

It’s not the Father - John 1:18, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16

they understood in the OT that the Angel of Yahweh was God. anybody seeing God in the OT was seeing the Angel of the Presence.

Jacob said he saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet Hosea said he wrestled with the Angel (Hosea 12:4)

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 24, 2020

Running2win said:
IMO, his soul died because Scripture talks of the need to have our souls saved. He needed to be born again then, and have faith in the redeemer to come-just like we look backwards.

So are you claiming Jesus soul died ?

And Jesus needed the new birth like every sinner needs ?

Running2win · Aug 24, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
So are you claiming Jesus soul died ?

And Jesus needed the new birth like every sinner needs ?

No, Adam.

Sorry I did not make that clear. Jesus' soul was in agony on the cross. His soul and body took our sins, IMO.

GenemZ · Aug 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
It’s not the Father - John 1:18, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16

they understood in the OT that the Angel of Yahweh was God. anybody seeing God in the OT was seeing the Angel of the Presence.

Jacob said he saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet Hosea said he wrestled with the Angel (Hosea 12:4)

Jesus Christ is Humanity and God in union. He is having Soul and Deity in union.

The Holy Spirit never appears after the Incarnation of Christ. He is only an OT manifestation.

Who is the Holy Spirit then?

As the Son is having Soul and Deity in Union?

The Holy Spirit is not soul. Soul is humanity. He is Spirit.

Angels are spirit. Man is soul.

The Holy Spirit is having the same essence as angels in union with Deity! Just as the Son has the same essence of man (soul) in union with Deity!

The Holy Spirit is having two natures in union, just like the Son is two natures in union. Its what makes all three personalities of the Trinity unique from one another. Yet, all three are tied together in unison of mind by being one with God's essence. God the Father has imposed no limits upon the Son and the Holy Spirit as to knowing all there can be known by them concerning God. To see the Holy Spirit is to see God. To see the Son is to see God.

The Son is knowing (and being) all there is to ever know about God. All that can be known from our soul's perspective. In other words? Jesus is all the God we can, and will ever, know about God! Likewise, the Holy Spirit as the Angel of Jehovah, was all the God that angels could ever know about God. Knowing God in a manner angels could relate to completely.

Now at this point in history we all have the Son to worship. Not the Holy Spirit. Its why angels were given a new command to now worship the Son. Before man was created? They used to worship God in the Angel of Jehovah. Even Moses worshiped at the burning bush the Angel of Jehovah. No harm done! For the Holy Spirit is God!

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” Hebrews 1:6

As the Son of God came into the world in the flesh, to reveal God to men? Before man existed? The Angel of Jehovah came in the body type of angels to reveal God to all the angels. The Angel of Jehovah could have turned to Gabriel to tell him... "To see me is to see the Father." The Holy Spirit is God!

I admit...I found it a bit perplexing at first. But, after keeping it stored in my heart quietly, it began to make sense of a lot of things found in the Bible like never before. For? The Holy Spirit is God. To see the Angel of Jehovah (to the angels) was to see God being manifested as an angel.

To see the Lord Jesus Christ now. If we could? Is to see God being manifested in a body like the kind of body we shall know and have in the Resurrection! Angels who are seeing the Lord in Heaven now? They know what we are in for. Its going to be beyond amazing.

grace and peace!

Der Alte · Aug 24, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
I think you're thinking of someone else. Timothy McVeigh maybe? He was executed by lethal injection. Wisconsin (where Dahmer was) didn't have the death penalty.
I'd thought Dahmer was executed too. I had to go look it up myself.

IIRC Jeff Daumer was executed by a fellow prisoner.

GenemZ · Aug 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
IIRC Jeff Daumer was executed by a fellow prisoner.

Criminals like him and child molesters usually are killed in prison. Jeff Daumer was "a criminbal."

Even criminals have a code of ethics.

Saint Steven · Aug 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
It’s not the Father - John 1:18, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16

they understood in the OT that the Angel of Yahweh was God. anybody seeing God in the OT was seeing the Angel of the Presence.

Jacob said he saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet Hosea said he wrestled with the Angel (Hosea 12:4)

You make a good argument, thanks.

Jesus is YHWH · Aug 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
It’s not the Father - John 1:18, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16

they understood in the OT that the Angel of Yahweh was God. anybody seeing God in the OT was seeing the Angel of the Presence.

Jacob said he saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), yet Hosea said he wrestled with the Angel (Hosea 12:4)

Indeed it was the Pre- Incarnate Son.

GenemZ · Aug 24, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Indeed it was the Pre- Incarnate Son.

The Son is full humanity and full Deity IN UNION.

Angels are not soul. Angels are spirit with their own kind of body.

The Angel of Jehovah was a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit being as God. Why? Angels are spirit. Humans are soul. Jesus could not become a true angel with his soul.

An angel must have a spirit like an angel to be an angel.

In contrast to the Angel of Jehovah Jesus has a soul for his humanity. The Angel of Jehovah was the Holy Spirit manifested in the form of an angel. We soon forget? The Holy Spirit is equally God to the Son. For Moses to worship the Angel of Jehovah was expected and not blasphemy. To worship an angel is blasphemy. Just like worshiping a man would be blasphemy. But, to worship the Son is accepted and expected. And, before the Incarnation took place? For Moses to worship the Angel of Jehovah was to be worshiping God manifested as a union between "spirit" and Deity. That is why this spirit is called the Holy Spirit.

Jesus = fully man and fully God in union.

Holy Spirit = fully angel and fully God in union.

God does not want our theology to become stagnant and mere tradition. Growth must take place with a spiritual life that is ever growing and maturing.

Saint Steven · Aug 24, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Indeed it was the Pre- Incarnate Son.

Yes. I think that is more the way I have heard it explained.

Saint Steven · Aug 24, 2020

Wow. I got an alert that I just went over 10,000 posts.

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