Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

sovereigngrace said:

Can you (1) remove your Pretrib glasses for a moment, (2) check the color coding below, and (3) piece the jigsaw puzzle together yourself. Check out the likeness, continuity and correlation between what all the Scripture. They all describe the same coming, on the same day, producing the same climactic result.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares (or) aifnídios (or suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.

Here, the reader is admonished to be ready for the Lord’s return lest that day catch him aifnídios (or) suddenly. In Christ’s warning of His Coming He explains that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” The snare is all-embracing. The destruction relates to all that miss the catching away; they are caught helplessly in a trap with no escape. Just like Noah and Lot’s days, there will be no survivors at the second coming of the Lord. The destruction shall come as a snare on all the inhabitants of the earth that are outside of Christ.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ [Gr. paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The second coming indeed takes place at the same time as the destruction of death. This is speaking of something that occurs “at the last trump.” Also, it is describing the arrangement that will be ushered in by God at that glorious event: a state of “incorruption.” Thirdly, it is chronicling the conditions for embracing that perfect state: namely a supernatural change in which man is suitably clothed in order to inherit the said state: “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Everything about this passage is climactic. Particularly interesting about this last trumpet is the fact that it confirms “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Firstly, we are entering into eternity, secondly, “the kingdoms of this world” have finally been submitted unto Christ. Never again will they rise up in rebellion against righteousness and truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

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Are you declaring that we have to wait until the end of Satan's 3.5 years? Or do these 3.5 years not exist in your quoted passages?

jgr said:

One word buttressed by many words from the entirety of the Word.

Feel free to disprove it.

With an equal amount of Scripture.

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Why would I bother - it's only "Eschatology".

jerry kelso said:

I don’t really care.

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Entirely unsurprising.

jerry kelso said:

You’re position is not right and you can’t prove it biblically across the board.

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We've done nothing but prove it biblically.

jerry kelso said:

You need to learn to rightly divide the word from the true Hebraic perspective.

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We divide (i.e. accurately handle) the Word from the true Christian perspective.

jerry kelso said:

They wrote the Bible.

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They wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write.

jerry kelso said:

When the rapture is isn’t necessarily going to mess with your salvation.

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A nonexistent rapture won't mess with anything.

jerry kelso said:

show me your post rapture in the book of Revelation alone since you are so certain.

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We've done nothing but show you.

jgr said:

Entirely unsurprising.
We've done nothing but prove it biblically.
We divide (i.e. accurately handle) the Word from the true Christian perspective.
They wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write.
A nonexistent rapture won't mess with anything.
We've done nothing but show you.

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There is no rapture after the tribulation. All are dead. The church stands before the GWT?

Bob Carabbio said:

Why would I bother - it's only "Eschatology".

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As you wish.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign nation

I don’t agree with you but I don’t say you have zero Biblical evidence or zero
historical evidence before whoever or zero legitimate evidence. You’re just being ridiculous and unfair.
You touting post trib rapture is your right but the pre-trib rapture is the most popular view today? I am not trying to use that fact.
You’re whole spirit of posting and tone and wording and what you are saying is just like the dark ages who believe they are the only true church, that carry the only truth, and that are legalistic, my way or no way, and try to snuff out every other position especially pre-trib.
I challenged you to show a post rapture in Revelation alone and I debunked it and you never answered back to my rebuttal. You just went to a completely different thing.
I gave you my position in Revelation alone, did you pass it by?
Jerry kelso

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I find it extremely ironic that on a Bible discussion forum you are lambasting me for simply requesting biblical evidence to support the theory you espouse. Does 1 Peter 3:15 not say: “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”? So far you have presented nothing.

You’ve proved by your avoidance and ad hominin that your doctrine cannot be found anywhere in the inspired pages. Therefore, we have the right to reject it. What is more, you list the early church fathers and claim that they believed what you do, yet you cannot present one verifiable quote to support this. The reason is: zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence before Lacunza = zero legitimate admissible evidence.

jerry kelso said:

jgr,
I don’t really care.
You’re position is not right and you can’t prove it biblically across the board.
You need to learn to rightly divide the word from the true Hebraic perspective.
They wrote the Bible.
You would rather follow man than Gods Word.
When the rapture is isn’t necessarily going to mess with your salvation.
show me your post rapture in the book of Revelation alone since you are so certain. Jerry kelso

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Private opinion does not cut it. Your silence is deafening.

Where are your biblical and historic quotes that clearly teach (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

jerry kelso said:

sovereign nation

I don’t agree with you but I don’t say you have zero Biblical evidence or zero
historical evidence before whoever or zero legitimate evidence. You’re just being ridiculous and unfair.
You touting post trib rapture is your right but the pre-trib rapture is the most popular view today? I am not trying to use that fact.
You’re whole spirit of posting and tone and wording and what you are saying is just like the dark ages who believe they are the only true church, that carry the only truth, and that are legalistic, my way or no way, and try to snuff out every other position especially pre-trib.
I challenged you to show a post rapture in Revelation alone and I debunked it and you never answered back to my rebuttal. You just went to a completely different thing.
I gave you my position in Revelation alone, did you pass it by?
Jerry kelso

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When others furnish you with clear and repeated biblical evidence. you simply ignore/dismiss. Post #408 is a case-in-point. It proves Posttrib but it remains unaddressed. Your fly-by dismissals testify to the poverty of Pretrib.

sovereigngrace said:

Private opinion does not cut it. Your silence is deafening.

Where are your biblical and historic quotes that clearly teach (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

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You cannot answer my questions either. So why accuse others?

You cannot use any of Revelation 20, but have to cut it out of God's Word to prove your theology is correct. Cutting out chapters from the Bible and putting them in the trash can is not rightly dividing God’s Word. You can not even use Revelation 20 symbolically. There is nothing in your proof text that can use any of Revelation 20.

You cannot prove a literal 7 year tribulation. Why use that in your argument?

You do not include Satan's 3.5 years. Does it not exist?

Even BABerean2 claims all are dead in this climatic event you call, "The Second Coming". Are all dead? What verses in Revelation is the resurrection, and you cannot use Revelation 20, because it will not work, in your amil scenario of the church age.

Timtofly said:

You cannot answer my questions either. So why accuse others?

You cannot use any of Revelation 20, but have to cut it out of God's Word to prove your theology is correct. Cutting out chapters from the Bible and putting them in the trash can is not rightly dividing God’s Word. You can not even use Revelation 20 symbolically. There is nothing in your proof text that can use any of Revelation 20.

You cannot prove a literal 7 year tribulation. Why use that in your argument?

You do not include Satan's 3.5 years. Does it not exist?

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Not true. I have showed you what Revelation 20 teaches repeatedly. But you totally ignore it. You have to, as you have nothing in Scripture.

Where does it say Satan's little season is 3.5 years? Where does Scripture teach a literal 7 year tribulation?

Timtofly said:

Even BABerean2 claims all are dead in this climatic event you call, "The Second Coming". Are all dead? What verses in Revelation is the resurrection, and you cannot use Revelation 20, because it will not work, in your amil scenario of the church age.

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You totally avoid Baberean like you do every other Amil. He has furnished you with clear Scripture. But you have tried to sidestep the evidence. That is because you have no rebuttal.

The dead are resurrected to be judged when Jesus comes. One is inextricably connected to the other. You cannot divorce the two.

Revelation 11:15-18 says: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” This is the last trump, which is after the thousand years. It the time when the righteous expressly receive their “reward” and when Christ will “destroy” the wicked. For those that refuse to bow the knee to Christ it will be a time of “wrath.” We see here that there are two parties standing before the same throne receiving two diverse sentences.

This is the same judgment that is found in Revelation 20:11-15, which records of this all-consummating day, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

This seems to tell us that God is keeping the dead in Christ in a safe place until the wicked events of this scene of time have finally been brought to an end and perfect righteousness has been introduced to the new earth. This tells me that the current state of sin and corruption with plagues this earth will be eliminated upon Christ’s return. The new earth that God’s glorified saints will populate will be perfect and pristine. In this reading Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Job testified in Job 14:12-14, “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

Timtofly said:

You cannot answer my questions either. So why accuse others?

You cannot use any of Revelation 20, but have to cut it out of God's Word to prove your theology is correct. Cutting out chapters from the Bible and putting them in the trash can is not rightly dividing God’s Word. You can not even use Revelation 20 symbolically. There is nothing in your proof text that can use any of Revelation 20.

You cannot prove a literal 7 year tribulation. Why use that in your argument?

You do not include Satan's 3.5 years. Does it not exist?

Even BABerean2 claims all are dead in this climatic event you call, "The Second Coming". Are all dead? What verses in Revelation is the resurrection, and you cannot use Revelation 20, because it will not work, in your amil scenario of the church age.

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By your (and every Pretribbers) avoidance, you confirm the obvious: there is nowhere in Holy Writ that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. It is clearly a Jesuit invention.

sovereigngrace said:

Not true. I have showed you what Revelation 20 teaches repeatedly. But you totally ignore it. You have to, as you have nothing in Scripture.

Where does it say Satan's little season is 3.5 years? Where does Scripture teach a literal 7 year tribulation?

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All you have claimed is it is happening currently. Nothing about chapter 20 is literal. So you can make it say anything you decide. If this is not the case, then explain what Revelation 20 does mean, instead of telling me what it does not mean. I already know it does not mean amil. There is not an "a" in front of the #1000 each time that number is in the text. So that is off the table. There is way more information in the chapter than just the #1000.

Timtofly said:

All you have claimed is it is happening currently. Nothing about chapter 20 is literal. So you can make it say anything you decide. If this is not the case, then explain what Revelation 20 does mean, instead of telling me what it does not mean. I already know it does not mean amil. There is not an "a" in front of the #1000 each time that number is in the text. So that is off the table. There is way more information in the chapter than just the #1000.

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There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

There is a literal reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Rev 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3).

There is a literal coming of Christ (Revelation 20:11). See also Matthew 24:27, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 21:26–27, Acts 1:10 and Revelation 1:7, etc, etc.).

There is a literal resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind in the future on the last day (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

There is a real conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Timtofly said:

All you have claimed is it is happening currently. Nothing about chapter 20 is literal. So you can make it say anything you decide. If this is not the case, then explain what Revelation 20 does mean, instead of telling me what it does not mean. I already know it does not mean amil. There is not an "a" in front of the #1000 each time that number is in the text. So that is off the table. There is way more information in the chapter than just the #1000.

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The thousand years cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture. Please remember there is no “one thousand years” (1,000 yrs) mentioned in this passage but rather the symbolic phrase "a thousand years." The term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17. The phrase "a thousand" is repeatedly presented in Scripture as a symbolic phrase to describe a large undefined number. Allowing for it's figurative setting, why couldn't the thousand years not be symbolic? For example, it says that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is. Is that sixty minutes? I do not think so. It means a short period of time. The genre of Revelation and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of rhetoric and figurative language. Why would/could "a thousand years" not represent a long period of time?

sovereigngrace said:

You totally avoid Baberean like you do every other Amil. He has furnished you with clear Scripture. But you have tried to sidestep the evidence. That is because you have no rebuttal.

The dead are resurrected to be judged when Jesus comes. One is inextricably connected to the other. You cannot divorce the two.

Revelation 11:15-18 says: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” This is the last trump, which is after the thousand years. It the time when the righteous expressly receive their “reward” and when Christ will “destroy” the wicked. For those that refuse to bow the knee to Christ it will be a time of “wrath.” We see here that there are two parties standing before the same throne receiving two diverse sentences.

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I agree, all die. Do you accept all die?

Stop saying after the 1000 years. Amil do not claim a literal 1000 years.

I agree the dead, those who reject Christ, for the last 6000 years, are resurrected after the next 1000 years.

When Christ comes those in Christ will be rewarded. Those not in Christ will be destroyed. That is literally what those verses say. Symbolically, the dead have to wait 1000 more years for their judgment. It is symbolic per Revelation 20. It is not literally stated in Revelation 11.

You add to the Scriptures the "dead are judged". Only the righteous are. Two things. The term dead is symbolic of those alive at Christ's coming. That is why the church is taken out first. The church is not dead. The judgment on the living is death. Where in those verses state a resurrection of dead humans to a judgment? The judgment of the Second Coming is death to all those ALIVE on the earth. The physically dead humans from the last 6000 years, are not killed nor destroyed. The living are killed; all destroyed. Death to those alive is the judgment.

sovereigngrace said:

This is the same judgment that is found in Revelation 20:11-15, which records of this all-consummating day, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

This seems to tell us that God is keeping the dead in Christ in a safe place until the wicked events of this scene of time have finally been brought to an end and perfect righteousness has been introduced to the new earth. This tells me that the current state of sin and corruption with plagues this earth will be eliminated upon Christ’s return. The new earth that God’s glorified saints will populate will be perfect and pristine. In this reading Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

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The dead in Christ do not stand before the GWT. Who teaches that? Besides if all of Revelation 20 is symbolic, then the GWT is not a literal event. Who gets to pick and choose which part of Revelation 20 is symbolic and which is literal? NO ONE!!!

sovereigngrace said:

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

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There is no literal resurrection. It is symbolic and only happens in Revelation 11, according to amil. Even though resurrection is not found in Revelation 11. Other than 2 literal humans. Who are not resurrected. Their bodies were never destroyed nor decayed. God just breathed life back into the same body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-40

sovereigngrace said:

Job testified in Job 14:12-14, “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

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Job lived in the Old Testament, even before the Law. Job was not a prophet. Job just understood the body dies. Job was asking if a body would ever raise again. He did not know.

Either Revelation 20 is all literal, or all symbolic. If it is symbolic then resurrection is just symbolic and not literal. At the end of the earth, all enter the lake of fire. No one is alive on earth. Only those in the New Jerusalem are alive. Amil have no teaching of when any human ever entered the New Jerusalem. It is all symbolic. BTW, Revelation 20 is not about the New Jerusalem. It is only about the judgment of the dead at the GWT into the lake of fire. If you use Revelation 11, saints are rewarded before the Great Tribulation, Satan’s 3.5 years in chapters 12 and 13.

If the Pharisees taught a resurrection, does that not make it a heresy any way? If we spiritualize the Bible, any one can claim anything, no?

Timtofly said:

I agree, all die. Do you accept all die?

Stop saying after the 1000 years. Amil do not claim a literal 1000 years.

I agree the dead, those who reject Christ, for the last 6000 years, are resurrected after the next 1000 years.

When Christ comes those in Christ will be rewarded. Those not in Christ will be destroyed. That is literally what those verses say. Symbolically, the dead have to wait 1000 more years for their judgment. It is symbolic per Revelation 20. It is not literally stated in Revelation 11.

You add to the Scriptures the "dead are judged". Only the righteous are. Two things. The term dead is symbolic of those alive at Christ's coming. That is why the church is taken out first. The church is not dead. The judgment on the living is death. Where in those verses state a resurrection of dead humans to a judgment? The judgment of the Second Coming is death to all those ALIVE on the earth. The physically dead humans from the last 6000 years, are not killed nor destroyed. The living are killed; all destroyed. Death to those alive is the judgment.



The dead in Christ do not stand before the GWT. Who teaches that? Besides if all of Revelation 20 is symbolic, then the GWT is not a literal event. Who gets to pick and choose which part of Revelation 20 is symbolic and which is literal? NO ONE!!!




There is no literal resurrection. It is symbolic and only happens in Revelation 11, according to amil. Even though resurrection is not found in Revelation 11. Other than 2 literal humans. Who are not resurrected. Their bodies were never destroyed nor decayed. God just breathed life back into the same body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-40




Job lived in the Old Testament, even before the Law. Job was not a prophet. Job just understood the body dies. Job was asking if a body would ever raise again. He did not know.

Either Revelation 20 is all literal, or all symbolic. If it is symbolic then resurrection is just symbolic and not literal. At the end of the earth, all enter the lake of fire. No one is alive on earth. Only those in the New Jerusalem are alive. Amil have no teaching of when any human ever entered the New Jerusalem. It is all symbolic. BTW, Revelation 20 is not about the New Jerusalem. It is only about the judgment of the dead at the GWT into the lake of fire. If you use Revelation 11, saints are rewarded before the Great Tribulation, Satan’s 3.5 years in chapters 12 and 13.

If the Pharisees taught a resurrection, does that not make it a heresy any way? If we spiritualize the Bible, any one can claim anything, no?

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I have never discussed with anyone on this board that knows so little about what Amil believes, or you are just trying to deliberately misrepresented that position.

sovereigngrace said:

I have never discussed with anyone on this board that knows so little about what Amil believes, or you are just trying to deliberately misrepresented that position.

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I am trying to figure out why they do not take Revelation 20 literally. Why such an aversion to a literal 1000 years?

sovereigngrace said:

I find it extremely ironic that on a Bible discussion forum you are lambasting me for simply requesting biblical evidence to support the theory you espouse. Does 1 Peter 3:15 not say: “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”? So far you have presented nothing.

You’ve proved by your avoidance and ad hominin that your doctrine cannot be found anywhere in the inspired pages. Therefore, we have the right to reject it. What is more, you list the early church fathers and claim that they believed what you do, yet you cannot present one verifiable quote to support this. The reason is: zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence before Lacunza = zero legitimate admissible evidence.

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sovereign grace,

Listen, you can be untruthful, misleading, one sided, unfair, and mean spirited, or try to cutoff those who don’t believe you or your position all you want but that will not make you right.
Your accusation about escapism leading people to fall of it doesn’t happen is erroneous and not based on scripture.
God kept Noah from the destruction of the world for he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Yes he had to reserve the human race but in Lots day he said he couldn’t bring judgement on the city until the Righteous were out of there safely.
Even at 70 A. D. There are Jewish stories of those fleeing into Judea and Pelegrín and Petra and not being destroyed by the Romans. Isaiah says that in the end time some will escape to Jordan.
I respect Corrie Ten Boom and could understand her feelings about American Christians who believed in Pre trib that talked about missing the tribulation because they were persecuted so heavily by the Nazis and she also knew how unserious and weak many were as Christians in America
However. If that was here reason for believing in Post trib would be improper, and stereotypical to the excess.
American Christians are not immuned to being martyred today and it could get worse before Christ comes back whether pre,mid, or post.
Our country was birthed on God and country, but to make such a comparison of the degree of tribulation is like asking why does one Christian get persecuted more than another.
The Bible says we are to occupy til he comes.
We have to carry our cross and if that means we have to be martyred. Paul said, I die daily. Killed in the hearts spiritually and standing in jeopardy where they could be killed physically.

2. Pre- trib preachers preach to be saved, sanctified, and holy and ready for Christ return at any moment. Even early church fathers who basically believed in post rapture believed in Christ imminent return to go into the millennial. And yet you believe in millennial before the second coming of Christ.

3. You believe that Satan is bound for a 1000 years now from what tempting people? The Bible calls him the tempter, not to mention he deceives all the time including the nations. In the millennial he will not be able to deceive the nations.

4. The rapture description is the blessed hope but you want to make the description the blessed hope at the day of Wrath and that is not what 1Thessalonians4:15-17 describes.

5. The blessings of the over comers in the whole church are in Heaven and can be attained only in Heaven before the second advent not the Holy that comes down to earth after theNew Heaven and New Earth are created.

6. The time of the dead happens at the end of the tribulation Why? Because there are only dead martyrs to resurrect and they were the martyrs who didn’t take the mark of the beast or the number of his name etc. They sing the song of Moses and all the Lamb which is a good indicator they were believing Jews. This happens before the vials on the Beast kingdom worshippers.

7. The remnant is always referred to the Jews not to Gentiles. Even in Romans 11 were the Jewish remnant. Why? To keep the believing Jew alive to eventually fulfill their gifts and callings on rulership on earth. This is not the only reason but it is the main one conducive to the KoH Reign on earth.

8. Tribulation of Jacob’s trouble is talking about a specific event not everyday life now.
2Timothy 2:12 is suffering now to rule and reign in the future kingdom.

9. One more thing, to say we have no shred of evidence completely is a ball face lie. I don’t believe that about you you shouldn’t of me. That’s like saying we don’t agree on anything in scripture at all.

10. Jesus plainly promised the Jewish nation to rule and reign forever (David as their King and the 22 apostles judging the 12 tribes of Israel) at the Head of the nations with Christ ruling the whole earth. We are promised as the church to be raptured to Heaven during the tribulation and be in his army at Armageddon to the Mt. of Olives. We will rule and reign over all the earth in different place depending on our stewardship now.
And after all Israel’s history and her being a target and hated now that she has no significance and Christ ruling from there and they with Christ.
That borders on the high and mighty of Anti-Semitism.
The Jews were high and mighty through ignorance of what the church really was.
But with this stinking thing that everything has to be under the name of the church solely with Gentiles is Ludicrous. That is not what the scripture says.
You want to say everything is spiritual dna and that is why the physical Jew can’t rule at the head of the nations. So who is? The church? Well the church believers that are truly saved wouldn’t qualify either because they are going to rule and reign too physically.
Unless you’re like some who think we are going straight to Heaven and do whatever, of which they don’t have a clue.
Jerry Kelso