Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin?

zoidar said:

Adam's fall lead to a corruption of the whole universe, creation itself got in some sense plagued with sin. Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin? Thoughts ...

Click to expand...

1. Only intelligent beings can sin. "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
2. As a result of sin - disease and death came to all life on this planet "creation" in the local context. Romans 8
3. All the fallen angels remain fallen and will be destroyed in the lake of fire in Rev 20.

So then ... it is just man.

But His death benefits even the sinless angels in that it demonstrates more information about the Love of God.

zoidar said:

Makes sense, yet Adam's fall affected the whole creation. Christ is the second Adam, isn't he undoing the effects of Adam?

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ of Nazareth restored the Holy Spirit once lost through Adam. He dwells permanently within His faithful followers. Be blessed.

zoidar said:

Makes sense, yet Adam's fall affected the whole creation. Christ is the second Adam, isn't he undoing the effects of Adam?

Click to expand...

Part II. Unless I am not understanding,God did not put a curse on the rest of nature (creation) only the three Adam, Eve and the serpent. They lived in a protected place, Eden, so they were not subjected to the natural world and all its challenges. It is very possible outside of Eden held God's creation unprotected which runs according to nature. Be blessed.

Maria Billingsley said:

Part II. Unless I am not understanding,God did not put a curse on the rest of nature (creation) only the three Adam, Eve and the serpent. .

Click to expand...

Gen 3
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;

Gen 9
And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.

Rom 8
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

BobRyan said:

Gen 3
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;

Gen 9
And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given.

Rom 8
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Click to expand...

Understood and all outside of Eden.

Maria Billingsley said:

Jesus Christ of Nazareth restored the Holy Spirit once lost through Adam. He dwells permanently within His faithful followers. Be blessed.

Click to expand...

That's funny, Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again before He went to the cross. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. The power of the Holy Spirit is all that came and left in the OT.

IMO, people were born again in the OT, just like the new. Few were saved before the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. If this is not true, how did they worship God in the OT. How did they understand Scripture? How did they love God and their neighbor? A lot of questions arise when we do not see God working the same way in the OT. And we have Peter that tells us Christ was indwelling the OT Prophets. Also Paul says people were born again in the OT. Most people don't understand this because that is what we are taught.

10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
Gal 4,

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

When Jesus was walking around on the earth in the flesh, He could not come and dwell in a believer by the Holy Spirit. But afterward He could, this was a unique time frame. IMO, that answers John 14. Jesus was abiding with the disciples, He will then come back through the Holy Spirit and indwells them., never leaving them.


16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19“After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20“In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you

Running2win said:

That's funny, Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again before He went to the cross. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. The power of the Holy Spirit is all that came and left in the OT.

IMO, people were born again in the OT, just like the new. Few were saved before the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. If this is not true, how did they worship God in the OT. How did they understand Scripture? How did they love God and their neighbor? A lot of questions arise when we do not see God working the same way in the OT. And we have Peter that tells us Christ was indwelling the OT Prophets. Also Paul says people were born again in the OT. Most people don't understand this because that is what we are taught.

10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
Gal 4,

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

When Jesus was walking around on the earth in the flesh, He could not come and dwell in a believer by the Holy Spirit. But afterward He could, this was a unique time frame. IMO, that answers John 14. Jesus was abiding with the disciples, He will then come back through the Holy Spirit and indwells them., never leaving them.


16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19“After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20“In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you

Click to expand...

Faith.

Maria Billingsley said:

Understood and all outside of Eden.

Click to expand...

Yep - the garden of Eden was not cursed

zoidar said:

Adam's fall lead to a corruption of the whole universe, creation itself got in some sense plagued with sin. Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin? Thoughts ...

Click to expand...

Jesus bore the punishment for what Matthew, John and Mark call the many and what Paul calls the elect. Jesus did not die for all men or some broader universe of creatures.

zoidar said:

Adam's fall lead to a corruption of the whole universe, creation itself got in some sense plagued with sin. Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin? Thoughts ...

Click to expand...

Jesus bears the sins of HIS people. The chosen ones before the foundation of the world. Not everyone in the world. It is the world as God defined it. Read carefully:

John 3:14-17 KJV
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Matthew 1:21 KJV
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 22:14 KJV
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many people misunderstood the famous John 3:16 verse. They thought the "world" means everyone in the world. That is false. God loves the world "through him." This a group of people that have given a Grace to.

Free Will doctrine is a false doctrine.

BobRyan said:

Yep - the garden of Eden was not cursed

Click to expand...

That is the only place, probably because it was in the Heavenly city. Heavenly city (mountain of God), went up before the flood. That means God dwelt on Earth before sin into the picture. Notice the colors in Ezek 28.

1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

13“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Quite a bunch very interesting issues have been brought up by our fellow posters. I want to comment on them from a biblical perspective.

eleos1954 said:

Sin started in heaven with Lucifer and the 1/3 angels .... the Lord expelled them from there and they came to the earth ... Adam & Eve were deceived ... sinned

Click to expand...

Well, biblically speaking this is not quite right as such. The underlying problem here is a pagan understanding of what heaven is.

In paganism, heaven is a place "above" and hell is another place, presumably "under the earth" or in the earth even. Physically these places work like our universe, maybe a bit more "magically" but in their essence they are like this universe. Basically, you have three universes.

What Christians have done, is to continue in these pagan traditions. Which is logical, the first Christians everywhere came from their respective pagan cultures and religions. Subsequently many did not bother to "upgrade" their cosmology to biblical standards. Which is just one way of how many pagan concepts entered into Christianity.

If we then take a look at the Bible and see what it tells us about the heavens and the earth, we find a rather different picture from that what our pagan ancestors handed down to us.

In the Bible, heaven and earth are pretty much intertwined. Earth is the natural or physical realm and heaven is the spiritual realm. They both together form the whole of creation.

Likewise man, the crown of creation, is consisting of mainly (not only, but mainly) two parts: his physical body and his heavenly body – which we call "spirit."

When we die, what happens is that our physical body is destructed, ceases to function, but our spirit lives "exists" on.

All spirit is always in heaven, all physical matter always in earth.

That is what the Bible tells us.

Now, coming back to the quote above, I want to talk about these points, because they are good points. (In regards to question in the OP…)

• "Sin started in heaven with Lucifer and the 1/3 angels"
  • It is quite right that Lucifer instigated the fall. It is also important to understand that some heavenly beings also fell into sin. Sin is not only a human issue alone, that's the point here.
  • However, it is also of uttermost importance to understand, that the fall was not done until Adam sealed the deal! Satan alone could not have completed the fall into sin without Adam. The fall was a deal between Adam and Satan.
  • Sin started when Adam "bite in the Apple" not sooner. (Yes, it was Satans idea, but Adam agreed to do it.)
  • Of course all this took place "in heaven" since Satan, who is an angle, can only reside in heaven. He is a heavenly being. The "material" he is made out of is "heaven". (Not necessarily according to paganism, but according to the Bible.)
• "the Lord expelled them from there and they came to the earth"
  • This is of course written with Revelation 12 in mind. Notice how Rev. 12 does NOT describe a place above from which Satan and 1/3 of all stars fell down to another place, like you would imagine a box of toys would fall down from a cupboard onto the floor?
  • The fall in Revelation 12 is also not the same event as the fall in Genesis 3.
  • We do not find a single Bible passage where the Lord "expelled" Satan from heaven, like you would expel some drunkard from a pub.
• "Adam & Eve were deceived ... sinned"
  • The Bible clearly indicates that Adam was not deceived. He agreed with Satan to sin.

eleos1954 said:

It appears that satan does have some limited access to heaven (ie in the book of Job) but that heaven is not his permanent abode ... earth is.

Click to expand...

As should be clear from what I wrote above, Satan, in his capacity as a heavenly being is always in heaven.

These things become clear once you really think about the nature of heaven and earth and how the Bible described them, as opposed to traditions of man.

eleos1954 said:

Jesus died for mankind alone. In the very end He will make a new heaven and new earth with the old being destroyed by fire.

Click to expand...

• "Jesus died for mankind alone."
  • This is not what the Bible teaches. This is another interesting (sub)topic. I am always in favor of looking at what God tells us in the Bible and to believe him.
• "In the very end He will make a new heaven and new earth"
  • This is true and he has already began. When he re-created us with a new spirit. We are already in this new creation – to a specific extend.

Running2win said:

It seems to me that the whole creation groans, not just the earth.

Click to expand...

Indeed, it is the whole of creation, heaven and earth. As the other poster already said: sin is in heaven.

Running2win said:

Peter uses plural in heavens

Click to expand...

Running2win said:

Once God restores creation to it's pristine shape, they will never run down or wear out, IMO.

Click to expand...

Yep.

zoidar said:

Adam's fall affected the whole creation. Christ is the second Adam, isn't he undoing the effects of Adam?

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. Adam, as the head of the old creation, commanded what was given to him unto sin. The result of sin is death, thus the whole of creation is dying.

But in Christ all things are new. New and living.

renniks said:

This is related to the fact that heaven isn't our eternal home, like many believe. Our forever home is the new heavens and new earth. This remaking goes far beyond just remaking humans by giving us new bodies.

Click to expand...

Very true.

Running2win said:

Satan behind the King of Tyre,

Click to expand...

Some doubt that God is talking about Satan here. But I am with Running2win, God is clearly telling us some things about Satan, in those passages on the King of Tyre.

Running2win said:

So, Satan was lifted up with pride in dwelt the serpent, and was cast out of the garden, but still has access to the throne room (Job). 1/3 of the angels in heaven followed him in the rebellion, some were put in Hades others were allowed to remain free-in order to fulfill Scripture.

Click to expand...

• "Satan was lifted up with pride"
  • Yes, the "King of Tyre"-passages indicate as much, also his actions in Gen 3 corespond with that.
• "in dwelt the serpent"
  • No, Satan is called the serpent. It is not an indwelling of an animal, Satan is the serpent. Doesn't talk so much about a snake, that's just a cultural image.
• "and was cast out of the garden"
  • If you read scripture carefully, you will see that Satan wasn't cast out of the garden.
  • The garden, yeah, a very, very interesting subject on it's own.

Very interesting stuff folks. It just can get better when we start to bring more of the Bible's treasures into this.

TribulationSigns said:

Jesus bears the sins of HIS people.

Click to expand...

That doesn't mean that his sacrifice isn't good to quench all other sin as well.

Lets forget about the universe for a moment. From your using the term "man's sin" it makes it look like you think that all people are saved by Jesus.

Maria Billingsley said:

Faith.

Click to expand...

Yes, Faith! And what happens after we have saving faith? What I'm trying to point out is the Bible does support being born again in the OT, and receiving the Spirit of Promise (Holy Spirit), who regenerates our souls, reconnects our spirits with the Father and the Son-now we can have fellowship and understand the things of God, seals our souls and bodies until the day of redemption, and baptizes us into one body of believers for all ages.

Issac was born again, Ishmael was not and he hated Issac. This was the start of the hatred of the Jews by Arabs, then the Muslim religion which Satan established to used in the end times- but God will use it to fulfill prophecy.

Eph 1,

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Titus 3,
3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Gal 3,
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4,

23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Springbok said:

Quite a bunch very interesting issues have been brought up by our fellow posters. I want to comment on them from a biblical perspective.


Well, biblically speaking this is not quite right as such. The underlying problem here is a pagan understanding of what heaven is.

In paganism, heaven is a place "above" and hell is another place, presumably "under the earth" or in the earth even. Physically these places work like our universe, maybe a bit more "magically" but in their essence they are like this universe. Basically, you have three universes.

What Christians have done, is to continue in these pagan traditions. Which is logical, the first Christians everywhere came from their respective pagan cultures and religions. Subsequently many did not bother to "upgrade" their cosmology to biblical standards. Which is just one way of how many pagan concepts entered into Christianity.

If we then take a look at the Bible and see what it tells us about the heavens and the earth, we find a rather different picture from that what our pagan ancestors handed down to us.

In the Bible, heaven and earth are pretty much intertwined. Earth is the natural or physical realm and heaven is the spiritual realm. They both together form the whole of creation.

Likewise man, the crown of creation, is consisting of mainly (not only, but mainly) two parts: his physical body and his heavenly body – which we call "spirit."

When we die, what happens is that our physical body is destructed, ceases to function, but our spirit lives "exists" on.

All spirit is always in heaven, all physical matter always in earth.

That is what the Bible tells us.

Now, coming back to the quote above, I want to talk about these points, because they are good points. (In regards to question in the OP…)

• "Sin started in heaven with Lucifer and the 1/3 angels"
  • It is quite right that Lucifer instigated the fall. It is also important to understand that some heavenly beings also fell into sin. Sin is not only a human issue alone, that's the point here.
  • However, it is also of uttermost importance to understand, that the fall was not done until Adam sealed the deal! Satan alone could not have completed the fall into sin without Adam. The fall was a deal between Adam and Satan.
  • Sin started when Adam "bite in the Apple" not sooner. (Yes, it was Satans idea, but Adam agreed to do it.)
  • Of course all this took place "in heaven" since Satan, who is an angle, can only reside in heaven. He is a heavenly being. The "material" he is made out of is "heaven". (Not necessarily according to paganism, but according to the Bible.)
• "the Lord expelled them from there and they came to the earth"
  • This is of course written with Revelation 12 in mind. Notice how Rev. 12 does NOT describe a place above from which Satan and 1/3 of all stars fell down to another place, like you would imagine a box of toys would fall down from a cupboard onto the floor?
  • The fall in Revelation 12 is also not the same event as the fall in Genesis 3.
  • We do not find a single Bible passage where the Lord "expelled" Satan from heaven, like you would expel some drunkard from a pub.
• "Adam & Eve were deceived ... sinned"
  • The Bible clearly indicates that Adam was not deceived. He agreed with Satan to sin.

As should be clear from what I wrote above, Satan, in his capacity as a heavenly being is always in heaven.

These things become clear once you really think about the nature of heaven and earth and how the Bible described them, as opposed to traditions of man.

• "Jesus died for mankind alone."
  • This is not what the Bible teaches. This is another interesting (sub)topic. I am always in favor of looking at what God tells us in the Bible and to believe him.
• "In the very end He will make a new heaven and new earth"
  • This is true and he has already began. When he re-created us with a new spirit. We are already in this new creation – to a specific extend.

Indeed, it is the whole of creation, heaven and earth. As the other poster already said: sin is in heaven.




Yep.


Yes, indeed. Adam, as the head of the old creation, commanded what was given to him unto sin. The result of sin is death, thus the whole of creation is dying.

But in Christ all things are new. New and living.


Very true.


Some doubt that God is talking about Satan here. But I am with Running2win, God is clearly telling us some things about Satan, in those passages on the King of Tyre.

• "Satan was lifted up with pride"
  • Yes, the "King of Tyre"-passages indicate as much, also his actions in Gen 3 corespond with that.
• "in dwelt the serpent"
  • No, Satan is called the serpent. It is not an indwelling of an animal, Satan is the serpent. Doesn't talk so much about a snake, that's just a cultural image.
• "and was cast out of the garden"
  • If you read scripture carefully, you will see that Satan wasn't cast out of the garden.
  • The garden, yeah, a very, very interesting subject on it's own.

Very interesting stuff folks. It just can get better when we start to bring more of the Bible's treasures into this.

Click to expand...

Springbok said:

Well, biblically speaking this is not quite right as such. The underlying problem here is a pagan understanding of what heaven is.

In paganism, heaven is a place "above" and hell is another place, presumably "under the earth" or in the earth even. Physically these places work like our universe, maybe a bit more "magically" but in their essence they are like this universe. Basically, you have three universes.

Click to expand...

Disagree .... heaven is a physical place ....

THE BIBLE DESCRIBES HEAVEN AS A LITERAL PLACE, AND IT’S GOD’S HOME BASE.

Jesus also made it clear to the disciples how much heaven mattered:

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:1-3 NKJV).

Heaven is a physical location where humans can go, and where Jesus went after his work on Earth was finished (Luke 24, Acts 1). In fact, He is still there right now, sitting “at the right hand of God” (1 Peter 3:21-22, ESV) and working with each one of us through His Holy Spirit (Hebrews 7:23-26, Romans 8:9-10).

Also, heaven is the place where God reigns and watches over the universe (Psalm 33:13-14). With Him are angels, praising Him and doing His work.

Springbok said:

In the Bible, heaven and earth are pretty much intertwined. Earth is the natural or physical realm and heaven is the spiritual realm. They both together form the whole of creation.

Click to expand...

Heaven is both spiritual and physical. While in our earthly bodies we experience the heavenly spiritually .... after God completes His entire plan of salvation we will be both spiritual and have physical bodies ... (will be like Christ)

Luke 24:39 (Jesus speaking - He wanted us to know we would have physical bodies)
Berean Study Bible
Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.

Springbok said:

When we die, what happens is that our physical body is destructed, ceases to function, but our spirit lives "exists" on.

Click to expand...

Now this is indeed from paganism if meaning we have an immortal "soul". Nothing about us is immortal. We were made from dust .... God gave us the breath of life and we became a living being " a soul" .... when we die earthly death we have the reverse of that .... our living breath returns to God. There is nothing of us that continues on ... (that is claiming we are immortal) and we do not receive immortality until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens and His Word is VERY clear on that point.

Springbok said:

Of course all this took place "in heaven" since Satan, who is an angle, can only reside in heaven. He is a heavenly being. The "material" he is made out of is "heaven". (Not necessarily according to paganism, but according to the Bible.)

Click to expand...

Angels are different kinds of created beings. Angels can go back and forth from heaven to earth. Satan usurped (took the place of) the kingship from Adam when Adam sinned.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Job 1:6-12
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

Springbok said:

• The fall in Revelation 12 is also not the same event as the fall in Genesis 3.

• We do not find a single Bible passage where the Lord "expelled" Satan from heaven, like you would expel some drunkard from a pub.

Luke 10:18
And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Revelation 12:7

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Click to expand...

Springbok said:

"Adam & Eve were deceived ... sinned"

• The Bible clearly indicates that Adam was not deceived. He agreed with Satan to sin.

No .... He listened to His wife ... instead of listening to what God had told them ... chose Eve over God.

Click to expand...

Springbok said:

"In the very end He will make a new heaven and new earth"

• This is true and he has already began. When he re-created us with a new spirit. We are already in this new creation – to a specific extend.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

We are being sanctified by His spirit .... this is an on-going process throughout our earthly life time and continues until either our earthly death or until Jesus returns ... whichever comes first.

Click to expand...

Springbok said:

Indeed, it is the whole of creation, heaven and earth. As the other poster already said: sin is in heaven.

Click to expand...

No it is not .... Lucifer & his minions were cast out of heaven.

Springbok said:

Some doubt that God is talking about Satan here. But I am with Running2win, God is clearly telling us some things about Satan, in those passages on the King of Tyre.

Click to expand...

The prophecy about the king of Tyre also represents the history of the real king of Tyre, who was Satan himself. The prince of Tyre had so remarkably imitated the example of his leader, the devil, that lie was controlled by the same principles as Satan.

Springbok said:

and was cast out of the garden"

• If you read scripture carefully, you will see that Satan wasn't cast out of the garden.

Click to expand...

After sin entered into the world paradise the entire earth became satans abode. Satan sowed weeds in the garden and ruined it. ie
The Parable of the Weeds

zoidar said:

Adam's fall lead to a corruption of the whole universe, creation itself got in some sense plagued with sin. Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin? Thoughts ...

Click to expand...

The reason that the universe suffered was not because of the "corruption of the whole universe"..

It was only man who was born into sin.. As a result.. man has done terrible things to the universe, animals and plants... in his corrupted sinful heart.

Angels are part of the universes.. so are demons.. yet once they turned from God.. they had no recourse...

Christ's salvation was for humans.. Not animals, not plants, not rocks not angels not demons.

Running2win said:

IMO, we can piece together what happened and what will happen to Satan.

So, Satan was lifted up with pride in dwelt the serpent, and was cast out of the garden, but still has access to the throne room (Job). 1/3 of the angels in heaven followed him in the rebellion, some were put in Hades others were allowed to remain free-in order to fulfill Scripture. He was judged at the cross and he knows his fate is sealed- because Jesus is the new Adam, and will one day take back dominion from him (Rev 10).

He will be further limited during the last half of the 70th week of Daniel (3.5 years) when he is cast out of heaven for good and has great wrath against anything God. He will then be put in the bottomless pit (Hades) for 1000 years when Christ returns to take possession of the earth from him and his followers, and reigns on the earth in the MK. He will set free for a short season to draw out all unbelievers born in the the 1000 year reign. He is then thrown in the lake of fire just before the great white throne judgment-that was prepared for him and his angels that sinned, and all his children (unbelievers).

So his judgement is drawn out over a long period of time-just like someone on death row. If we see the big picture, it all makes sense.

Yes, Christians do have power over the demons and our soul cannot be touched, nor can we be indwelt by them (but oppressed and deceived), but the non born again are still under his dominion-the children of disobedience, along with the world system-governments, airwaves and such. This is what I believe the Bible teaches.

3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.


4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, a putting them in chains of darkness b to be held for judgment;

Satan behind the King of Tyre,

11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,

topaz, onyx and jasper,

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. b

Your settings and mountings c were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

Click to expand...

Wrong!

Running2win said:

What I'm trying to point out is the Bible does support being born again in the OT,

Click to expand...

You don't appear to understand what being Born Again actually means.

It takes Jesus being Crucified, and our identification with His death through our Baptism that we become Born Again, how did it take place in the Old Testament?

zoidar said:

Adam's fall lead to a corruption of the whole universe, creation itself got in some sense plagued with sin. Did Jesus bear the whole sinful condition of the universe on the cross, or only man's sin? Thoughts ...

Click to expand...

He bore humans' sins, the result of which caused disruption in God's universe, though his handiwork still reflects his greatness.