You Know... Maybe The 'Church' is on to Som'n Here?

cvanwey

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I agree that emotion is not a sound measurement for truth, but then I also don't think that a lot of believers, believe because of emotion either. Emotions rise and fall, but believers believe in spite of those ups and downs.

Emotions serve the purpose, even in sermons, of bringing people to God to help in dealing with the problems that cause those emotions. Belief in a God does not arise because people are emotive, it arises because there is a God.

Emotions do not only reflect the ones we want or like. Emotions also involves the ones we don't. Ironically, as you have mentioned, sometimes belief elevates during perceived hardships. Take a look at the study "psychology of belief in god". There is a least 5 reasons, maybe more:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201202/five-causes-belief-in-god
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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I had a thought on evangelism which is maybe relevant to the idea that reason alone cannot persuade a person to believe in Christianity.

So the idea is this:
What did the early Christians believe before conversion and what did they believe after conversion?
Were they atheists before conversion? No.
Were they polytheists before conversion? No.
They were Jews and Gentiles who were fascinated by Judaism.

So these early Christians already believed in Judaism and they already expected a Messiah to come in their time to establish the Kingdom of Heaven. The Christians evangelists had only to persuade these people that Jesus of Nazareth was this expected Messiah even though he was crucified.

Not strictly true. The term 'gentile' refers to anyone who was not of the Jewish descent and it is clear from reading Acts that many of the gentiles were not brought up in the Jewish faith and not expecting a messiah.
 
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Kaon

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Except for when we finally wake up, and acknowledge the Christian God as the true source. Right?

Did you not year me say how denominations and faiths are MAN MADE? There is only One Truth, and there is only One real Prime entity.

The "Christian" god is a political and religious statement; there is only One Most High entity - much more than a mere god - that provides real life. This One doesn't provide a facsimile of life like the gods most people follow (even unbelievers or faithless).

If you follow world systems for spiritual growth and enlightenment, then you are deluding yourself. There is only One Truth, and He has already saved the world/showed us a way out. So, with the wealth of knowledge and resources we have today there is no excuse to stay agnostic or atheist. Agnosticism is a step in enlightenment: residing in skepticism and agnosticism means you haven't actually found the truth.

Also, remember how the Redeemer said MANY will say they did wonders and prophecy by His name, and He will say, "depart from me... I never knew you!" We choose our logic and reason that handicaps us so that we are always one step behind in truth.
 
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childeye 2

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I never claimed you personally had a direct hand in postulating any given written definition ;) See below...
Okay, but you did say, "your own definition would not differ from the many others". I wanted to make sure we're talking specifically about the scriptural use of the term and not some personal interpretation or mythological personification.

'God' looks to have many definitions.
No not really. There is one consistent definition pertaining to a creator. You may be conflating god with religion or conflating descriptions with definitions. There are many "images" of god which is the articulation found in scripture. We should stick to that articulation lest we misrepresent and misunderstand the use of the term "God" as proposed in scripture.

Please be consistent in your own assertions. If you are to trust the Bible, then you just contradicted it's assertions...

"And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face"

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. The Lord spoke with you
"And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, each at his tent door. Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire"
You're misunderstanding my post, as well as these scriptures in my opinion. The reason I said no one created has seen God is because no created being had been created yet. Hence Moses wasn't there to see God and witness a creator creating the creation.

I was talking in the context of the meaning of the term God as the Creator, but since you brought up the subject of Moses; What Moses described seeing was a burning bush that was never consumed. God is elsewhere in scripture described as a consuming fire. The phrase face to face more likely refers to a one on one encounter pertaining to intimacy, note: whom the Lord knew face to face".
face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire.

But I digress. So more to the point, what it means for the creator to know Moses face to face doesn't change the term God so that it is no longer an axiom meaning Creator.

An argument from ignorance fallacy, or begging the question, is some sort of 'axiom' ;)
Is this a statement or was it meant as a question? Either way, I would point out that God as an axiom is a proposition that there is a source of the energy that created all things. That is what we are dealing with in scripture when contemplating the term. Hence there is no argument to be had here, but only a forthright acknowledgment of a self evident fact, that the term God in scripture is an axiom meaning the source of the energy that created all things.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Please see above.
Please elaborate on what you are referring to. 'Above' is a bit vague.
 
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childeye 2

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I agree that emotion is not a sound measurement for truth, but then I also don't think that a lot of believers, believe because of emotion either. Emotions rise and fall, but believers believe in spite of those ups and downs.

Emotions serve the purpose, even in sermons, of bringing people to God to help in dealing with the problems that cause those emotions. Belief in a God does not arise because people are emotive, it arises because there is a God.
I like your post. Respectfully, I feel the thread has a problem with a changing definition for belief/believe/faith/trust which causes misunderstandings. There is a difference between believing in God as existing and believing in God as trustworthy. When Jesus says he who believes in me has eternal life, he is using the term believe to mean trust in. He is not inferring that those who are present and hearing him speak must believe he exists. Perhaps it would be helpful if we qualify the term 'believe' accordingly so that faith/trust is not confused with faith/believe God exists.
 
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cvanwey

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Did you not year me say how denominations and faiths are MAN MADE? There is only One Truth, and there is only One real Prime entity.

I say they are all likely 'man made'. I also heard you say "there is only One real Prime entity".

The "Christian" god is a political and religious statement; there is only One Most High entity - much more than a mere god - that provides real life. This One doesn't provide a facsimile of life like the gods most people follow (even unbelievers or faithless).

So the Bible is completely man made too?

If you follow world systems for spiritual growth and enlightenment, then you are deluding yourself.

"Concluding' a 'Prime entity' could very well be deluding one's self? Why not just start and stop at, we don't know yet, or maybe never will?


There is only One Truth, and He has already saved the world/showed us a way out.

And which flavor of God are you asserting here?
 
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Kaon

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I say they are all likely 'man made'. I also heard you say "there is only One real Prime entity".

You are saying they are all man-made because you have correctly entertained suspicion of what people and their systems say. However, you stop here - your own emotional/intellectual/"spiritual" experience with this retards your ability to see that while most everything on this plane of existence is some sort of a lie, there is actually Truth.

Right now, most things look like a deception to you, which is useful when you are in this type of world. However, as said before, agnosticism should be a step in the direction of uncovering the Truth. Residing here will leave you perpetually ignorant.

You will have to forget everything you think you know about these world systems in order to begin to entertain things beyond your understanding. Your reality as you know may be the very thing blocking you from realizing something more beyond this plane of existence.



So the Bible is completely man made too?

The bible was made by humans; even in the bible canon the Redeemer is the Living Word of the Most High.


In other words, the "Word of God" is a Living Entity; the bible is a canonical texts that was compiled by men and institutions.



"Concluding' a 'Prime entity' could very well be deluding one's self? Why not just start and stop at, we don't know yet, or maybe never will?

When you are on a plane of existence for which deception is a spiritual currency worth more than truth, it is easy to believe that everything is a delusion. However, there is Truth and it is accessible. Truth is an Entity (the Redeemer). The delusion would come from how I apply by (rudimentary) logic to understand this Truth (Entity) - not about a Prime Entity.


The "Prime Entity" is an consequence of the basic structure of our reality - mathematics.



And which flavor of God are you asserting here?

There is no "flavor of a god" because there is only One Prime Entity. Any gods people talk about, or believe in (including "gods" of disbelief) are merely gods by comparison to us, perhaps. In reality (truth), they are simply powers, rulers and principalities of this plane of existence.

There is only One Entity that is: all others are creations. There are plenty of lies and deception about which "flavor" is the right one - but the gag is that the Most High has no "flavor" except being the Most High.
 
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cvanwey

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3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I see the rest as nothing more than minutiae. I'll address this...

You are excluding other options, outright. What about an eternal 'universe'? What about infinite regress? You just bing-slam-bang assert "known existence had a true beginning", and has not instead merely changed form, from a prior state/other.

But what is interesting, is that the transverse seems to demonstrate the contrary. If the universe is eternal, then to even suggest your (3) premises, would be preposterous. Right?
 
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childeye 2

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Why not just start and stop at, we don't know yet, or maybe never will?
Wouldn't it be prudent to start by all of us admitting we first have to know what the term God means before we can elaborate on God?
 
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cvanwey

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You are saying they are all man-made because you have correctly entertained suspicion of what people and their systems say. However, you stop here - your own emotional/intellectual/"spiritual" experience with this retards your ability to see that while most everything on this plane of existence is some sort of a lie, there is actually Truth.

Right now, most things look like a deception to you, which is useful when you are in this type of world. However, as said before, agnosticism should be a step in the direction of uncovering the Truth. Residing here will leave you perpetually ignorant.

You will have to forget everything you think you know about these world systems in order to begin to entertain things beyond your understanding. Your reality as you know may be the very thing blocking you from realizing something more beyond this plane of existence.





The bible was made by humans; even in the bible canon the Redeemer is the Living Word of the Most High.


In other words, the "Word of God" is a Living Entity; the bible is a canonical texts that was compiled by men and institutions.





When you are on a plane of existence for which deception is a spiritual currency worth more than truth, it is easy to believe that everything is a delusion. However, there is Truth and it is accessible. Truth is an Entity (the Redeemer). The delusion would come from how I apply by (rudimentary) logic to understand this Truth (Entity) - not about a Prime Entity.


The "Prime Entity" is an consequence of the basic structure of our reality - mathematics.





There is no "flavor of a god" because there is only One Prime Entity. Any gods people talk about, or believe in (including "gods" of disbelief) are merely gods by comparison to us, perhaps. In reality (truth), they are simply powers, rulers and principalities of this plane of existence.

There is only One Entity that is: all others are creations. There are plenty of lies and deception about which "flavor" is the right one - but the gag is that the Most High has no "flavor" except being the Most High.

"A deepity is a proposition that seems to be profound because it is actually logically ill-formed. It has (at least) two readings and balances precariously between them. On one reading it is true but trivial. And on another reading it is false, but would be earth-shattering if true."
 
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cvanwey

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Wouldn't it be prudent to start by all of us admitting we first have to know what the term God means before we can elaborate on God?

Like I said, theism, in general is not well or strictly defined. Let alone 'God'.
 
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childeye 2

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I see the rest as nothing more than minutiae. I'll address this...

You are excluding other options, outright. What about an eternal 'universe'? What about infinite regress? You just bing-slam-bang assert "known existence had a true beginning", and has not instead merely changed form, from a prior state/other.

But what is interesting, is that the transverse seems to demonstrate the contrary. If the universe is eternal, then to even suggest your (3) premises, would be preposterous. Right?
Not at all. If the universe were eternal then the universe would be God as the source of energy that created all things. As a matter of fact, Albert Einstein initially set out to prove that the universe was eternal hypothesizing that the universe had no beginning. Instead he ended up disproving his own theory discovering that the universe is actually time unfolding as matter in space is expanding from some point of a beginning. Whereupon he stated that the God of the universe is a strict determinist. I grant you that temporal terms are not well suited to discuss eternal subject matter.
 
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childeye 2

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Like I said, theism, in general is not well or strictly defined. Let alone 'God'.
I think it's defined well in the source of the energy that created all things. Clarity is good, obfuscation is not.
 
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Kaon

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"A deepity is a proposition that seems to be profound because it is actually logically ill-formed. It has (at least) two readings and balances precariously between them. On one reading it is true but trivial. And on another reading it is false, but would be earth-shattering if true."

But, the Truth isn't actually "deep"; it is simple.

Because we have been jaded by our experiences, what we do to each other and how much we ignore to get through a day. Human logic and reason is the handicap, not the Truth. There is no such thing as "his truth, my truth" or "your truth": the Truth is an absolute, and independent of our logic and reason (no matter how refined we think our logic and reasoning is).

Most everyone will never actually come to the Most High or the Truth because they are looking for complexity in something that is very simple; this is why children are considered more spiritually aligned than adults: children aren't (yet) denatured by the world systems and institutions, so they can actually see the simplicity in the Truth.
 
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cvanwey

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Not at all. If the universe were eternal then the universe would be God as the source of energy that created us. As a matter of fact, Albert Einstein initially set out to prove that the universe was eternal hypothesizing that the universe had no beginning. Instead he ended up disproving his own theory discovering that the universe is actually time unfolding as matter in space is expanding from some point of a beginning. Whereupon he stated that the God of the universe is a strict determinist. I grant you that temporal terms are not well suited to discuss eternal subject matter.

Um, that would basically be 'pantheism'.... Which hardly points to YHWH and the Biblical God:)

Food for thought, with NO assertions attached. Often times, 'science' does not jump to conclusions, unlike theism. See below...


The Big Bounce: Why our universe might be eternal

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-myth-of-the-beginning-of-time-2006-02/
 
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cvanwey

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But, the Truth isn't actually "deep"; it is simple.

Because we have been jaded by our experiences, what we do to each other and how much we ignore to get through a day. Human logic and reason is the handicap, not the Truth. There is no such thing as "his truth, my truth" or "your truth": the Truth is an absolute, and independent of our logic and reason (no matter how refined we think our logic and reasoning is).

Most everyone will never actually come to the Most High or the Truth because they are looking for complexity in something that is very simple; this is why children are considered more spiritually aligned than adults: children aren't (yet) denatured by the world systems and institutions, so they can actually see the simplicity in the Truth.

See post #50
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Emotions do not only reflect the ones we want or like. Emotions also involves the ones we don't. Ironically, as you have mentioned, sometimes belief elevates during perceived hardships. Take a look at the study "psychology of belief in god". There is a least 5 reasons, maybe more:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201202/five-causes-belief-in-god
Actually belief elevates with emotions... but emotions are not the reason that people believe, at least not in my experience. My belief in God goes up and down but not because I emote about it... Indifference is the typical cause of a drop in belief. When I'm unhappy, my belief in God goes up, but when I am really happy my belief in God goes up too. 'Average' is therefore the worst thing for belief in God.
 
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cvanwey

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Actually belief elevates with emotions... but emotions are not the reason that people believe, at least not in my experience. My belief in God goes up and down but not because I emote about it... Indifference is the typical cause of a drop in belief. When I'm unhappy, my belief in God goes up, but when I am really happy my belief in God goes up too. 'Average' is therefore the worst thing for belief in God.

You could not be a more fitting poster-child for the 'Church mantra.' Keep it's congregation 'high in spirit.' It's great for business.
 
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childeye 2

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Um, that would basically be 'pantheism'.... Which hardly points to YHWH and the Biblical God:)
Yes pantheism has been a term coined for those who hold such an imagery of god.

Food for thought, with NO assertions attached. Often times, 'science' does not jump to conclusions, unlike theism. See below...
I wouldn't say that theism jumps to conclusions. That may appear to be true in one subjective view. From my experience the theist logically concludes that the source of the energy that created all things, preceded the creature that was created, wherefore there are higher powers which we in a certain level of intelligence interact with as a matter of the circumstance of being created.

For example the "biblical God" is not presented as a theory since scripture is articulating as a witness to interactions between mankind and the Creator instigated by the Creator and testifying to a spiritual Character as a moral component in mankind. For example empathy is proclaimed as the moral Spirit that we were given but did not realize it's value without some tangible experience.

I won't pretend to understand string theory. To me temporal terms are insufficient to articulate eternal matters. Some will say time and a time before time or a time after time is not in discord with eternity. While others would postulate that time loses all meaning in eternity.
 
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