Covenant and New Covenant theology

keras

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Ezekiel 37 is a process, not the everything prophesied fulfilled at once.
Your unsupported opinion. Are the Jews as many as the sands of the sea?

There cannot be 'a slow process' of dry bones being given the breath of the Spirit.
"Dry bones', represents our Spiritual condition at present. After the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, we Christians will gather in the holy Land, where the prophecy of Joel 2:28-29 will be fulfilled.
Only then, will the two Houses be rejoined and the Lord will make then a single nation in the Land. Ezekiel 37:22
 
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Guojing

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I want to make sure I am understanding you.

Are you suggesting it was Peter’s gospel up against Paul's gospel at the Council of Jerusalem?

I will let scripture tell you the answer

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Gospel of Grace, Peter wanted Jews to be saved as the Gentiles)

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (James final decision to excuse only the Gentiles from the Law)
 
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Guojing

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The Gospel never changed. To identify what the Gospel is...I'd suggest reading Acts 2 - Peter’s sermon and Acts 13 - Paul's sermon. That may be the simplest way to sum up what the Gospel actually is.

If someone is preaching something different than what Peter and Paul said - recorded in that text - then it is they that are preaching a different Gospel. There was no disunity between Jesus, the disciples, and Paul.

I'd recommend reading both chapters....but here are some highlights from Paul's sermon:


Acts 13
16Paul stood up, motioned with his hand, and began to speak: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who fear God, listen to me!



22After removing Saul, He raised up David as their king and testified about him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart; he will carry out My will in its entirety.’a23From the descendants of this man, God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as He promised. 24Before the arrival of Jesus, John preached a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25As John was completing his course, he said, ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not that One. But He is coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’b26Brothers, children of Abraham, and you Gentiles who fear God, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Since you quoted Acts 13, let me use it to contrast between Acts 2 and Acts 13

Notice Peter's audience was only to the Jews Acts 2.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my word

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Contrast it to what you quoted Paul saying in Acts 13, and you will clearly see a difference.
 
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Douggg

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Your unsupported opinion. Are the Jews as many as the sands of the sea?

There cannot be 'a slow process' of dry bones being given the breath of the Spirit.
"Dry bones', represents our Spiritual condition at present. After the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, we Christians will gather in the holy Land, where the prophecy of Joel 2:28-29 will be fulfilled.
Only then, will the two Houses be rejoined and the Lord will make then a single nation in the Land. Ezekiel 37:22
You are arguing that the geographic union of what was north and south has not occurred, in spite of the maps? And that Israel became a nation again in the land in one day May 14, 1948?

The bones were dry due to 2000 years of not being in that land.
 
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keras

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You are arguing that the geographic union of what was north and south has not occurred, in spit of the maps? And that Israel became a nation again in the land in one day May 14, 1948? .
Yes; because the Jewish State of Israel does not control Samaria or Gilead, let alone the entire holy Land - from the Nile to the Euphrates.
The boundaries of today bear practically no relation to the ancient divisions.
Ezekiel 47:13-23 and 48, detail the tribal boundaries of the new nation of Beulah.
The bones were dry due to 2000 years of not being in that land.
It would be good if you typed your opinions in red, then all would be warned to discount them.

If you think Ezekiel 37:1-14 is fulfilled, then explain how verses 13-14 are evidenced?
 
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Guojing

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Guojing, you don't make any distinction between Israel and Judah.
In over 160 Bible verses, those 2 entities are mentioned separately. Why do you combine them?
It was God's will that they be separated; 1 Kings 12:24, and they still remain as two peoples. There has been some intermingling, but essentially they are different peoples.

That they have not yet rejoined, is obvious from Ezekiel 37, as the prophesied Blessings have not been received yet.
Jesus came to save the house Of Israel. Matthew 15:24 If you believe the Jewish people are the only Israel, then Jesus failed in His mission. But if the Northern ten tribes of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria, are still scattered among the nations, as stated in Deuteronomy 28:64-67, John 7:35, then Jesus was successful and we Christians are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16

If you examine the famous story of Elijah vs the prophets of Baal, even when it was split, he still laid down 12 stones, to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

Thus, in God's eyes, he always view Israel as one.

1 Kings 18:30-31
30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
 
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Douggg

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If you think Ezekiel 37:1-14 is fulfilled, then explain how verses 13-14 are evidenced?
There are still Jews in the nations and will all not be brought back to Israel until Jesus returns.

Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to the earth.


Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Obviously, it is not talking about the church, is it?
 
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mkgal1

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I will let scripture tell you the answer
I was asking for your interpretation. Scripture isn't going to answer that.This is another simple yes or no answer. I'd asked:

mkgal1 said:
Are you suggesting it was Peter’s gospel up against Paul's gospel at the Council of Jerusalem?
 
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Guojing

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I was asking for your interpretation. Scripture isn't going to answer that.This is another simple yes or no answer. I'd asked:


In the first place, Acts 15 was not about Paul's gospel vs Peter gospel, so you are asking the wrong question.

It was about the gospel of the Kingdom which was only for Israel and required faith in Jesus as their promised Messiah plus obedience to the Law of Moses, vs the gospel of grace, which was for all men and only required faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.
 
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keras

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Thus, in God's eyes, he always view Israel as one.
You obviously didn't read 1 Kings 12:24 To Judah...do not fight your kinsmen, Israel; as this is My doing. [the separation of all Israel into two parts, the House of Judah and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes]
All the Prophets carefully maintain this separation. You should too.
But it is.
Proved by how the New Testament confirms that Christian peoples are the Israelites of God. By descent and/or by faith. Galatians 3:26-29

What you fail to see is the many prophesies that detail the virtual demise of the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jewish people. Over 20 Prophesies tell about the Judgment/punishment of Judah. There is none that say there will be a general redemption of Judah, as you want to happen.
 
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Guojing

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You obviously didn't read 1 Kings 12:24 To Judah...do not fight your kinsmen, Israel; as this is My doing. [the separation of all Israel into two parts, the House of Judah and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes]
All the Prophets carefully maintain this separation. You should too.

But it is.
Proved by how the New Testament confirms that Christian peoples are the Israelites of God. By descent and/or by faith. Galatians 3:26-29

What you fail to see is the many prophesies that detail the virtual demise of the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jewish people. Over 20 Prophesies tell about the Judgment/punishment of Judah. There is none that say there will be a general redemption of Judah, as you want to happen.

1 Kings 18 took place after I Kings 12. Did Elijah follow your advice?
 
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Douggg

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Proved by how the New Testament confirms that Christian peoples are the Israelites of God. By descent and/or by faith. Galatians 3:26-29

What you fail to see is the many prophesies that detail the virtual demise of the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jewish people. Over 20 Prophesies tell about the Judgment/punishment of Judah. There is none that say there will be a general redemption of Judah, as you want to happen.
It is amazing how you argue with basic geography.
 
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keras

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1 Kings 18 took place after I Kings 12. Did Elijah follow your advice?
Red herring!
Ezekiel 4:4-6 shows that the exile of Judah and Israel are for separate times.
Judah is back; but Israel?
It is amazing how you argue with basic geography.
It is your inability to see how the present boundaries are quite unlike what they were and are prophesied to be, that is your problem.
I am sure that you have said before that the Land of Israel will be greatly expanded in the future. Micah 7:11, Isaiah 26:15 But it is your mistake to think the citizens who are there now will do it.
All the prophesies say it will be the Lord who will destroy all His enemies in all of the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
 
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Guojing

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Red herring!
Ezekiel 4:4-6 shows that the exile of Judah and Israel are for separate times.
Judah is back; but Israel?

It is your inability to see how the present boundaries are quite unlike what they were and are prophesied to be, that is your problem.
I am sure that you have said before that the Land of Israel will be greatly expanded in the future. Micah 7:11, Isaiah 26:15 But it is your mistake to think the citizens who are there now will do it.
All the prophesies say it will be the Lord who will destroy all His enemies in all of the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

You are funny, your premise "All the Prophets carefully maintain this separation" is obviously false by 1 Kings 18:31.

Elijah paid no attention to your doctrine. Should I follow his example or yours?
 
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BABerean2

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It was about the gospel of the Kingdom which was only for Israel and required faith in Jesus as their promised Messiah plus obedience to the Law of Moses, vs the gospel of grace, which was for all men and only required faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.


Pastor John Otis reveals the truth about the two kingdoms doctrine below.

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis


.
 
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mkgal1

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36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Contrast it to what you quoted Paul saying in Acts 13, and you will clearly see a difference.
That's true that Peter’s audience in Jerusalem was from the 12 tribes. That's because Peter spoke in the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel - which was a time set aside for Daniel's people and the city.

My point was - it's the same Gospel....the same Good News that Paul delivered once the Gospel spread to the Gentiles (after 34 AD). There's only one Gospel.....and it's Good News for everyone (if it isn't.....then it's a different gospel than the True Gospel). Paul's audience included Jews & Gentiles (and Paul, himself, was from the tribe of Benjamin).
 
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mkgal1

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Called out assembly is not equivalent to the body of Christ.

The latter is a secret that was first revealed to Paul
The mystery was revealed to be that the True Israel (people of God) were not just circumcised in the flesh.....they were circumcised in their hearts....Jews and Gentiles grafted together as one (Romans 11)....with a greater mediator than Moses (Jesus) of a greater covenant (the New Covenant)....with a greater dwelling place than a temple made with human hands.

Hebrews 3:3 ~ For Jesus has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.
 
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mkgal1

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In the first place, Acts 15 was not about Paul's gospel vs Peter gospel, so you are asking the wrong question.
I framed my question that way because you stated that, at the Jerusalem Council, it was decided that "Paul’s gospel" was decided to be the legitimate gospel for the Gentiles.

ETA: from post #753:
Guojing said:
Paul wrote Galatians after the Jerusalem Council event in Acts 15, where it was decided that Paul's gospel was legitimate and the only gospel for gentile believers to follow.

So for gentile believers who are going to be saved thru the fall of Israel, the gospel of grace revealed to Paul is the only valid gospel for them.
It was about the gospel covenant of the Kingdom which was only for Israel and required faith in Jesus as their promised Messiah plus [their previous] obedience to the Law of Moses, vs the gospel covenant of grace, which was for all men and only required faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.
There's a couple of corrections I'd make to this statement and then I can actually agree with you. It's a subtle change that can shift your view of the Story of God tremendously....I think.

I made the corrections to your quote to align with my understanding. This shift occurred at a specific point in time with several events after Jesus's death on the cross, His resurrection, and ascension (then a shift began when Peter and Saul/Paul each had their conversions....in 34 AD.... until Jerusalem was destroyed - the old covenant disappeared (as was written in Hebrews 8:13) or to use your phrase "the fall of Israel" occurred (apostate Israel) and ancient biblical Judaism ended).....but New Jerusalem was formed (in the hearts of believers - forming a new Temple with Christ Jesus as our cornerstone).

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 
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keras

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You are funny, your premise "All the Prophets carefully maintain this separation" is obviously false by 1 Kings 18:31.

Elijah paid no attention to your doctrine. Should I follow his example or yours?
There were two separate Kingdoms in Elijah's time; Judah and Israel. But the tribal affiliations remained.
Your point is not just useless, but shows your desperation to make the present Jewish State of Israel, the only Israel.
We know why you must do this; it is a basic tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Not going to happen, Guojing, we must all endure until the end.
 
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Guojing

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That's true that Peter’s audience in Jerusalem was from the 12 tribes. That's because Peter spoke in the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel - which was a time set aside for Daniel's people and the city.

My point was - it's the same Gospel....the same Good News that Paul delivered once the Gospel spread to the Gentiles (after 34 AD). There's only one Gospel.....and it's Good News for everyone (if it isn't.....then it's a different gospel than the True Gospel). Paul's audience included Jews & Gentiles (and Paul, himself, was from the tribe of Benjamin).

one gospel required strict obedience to the law of Moses including circumcision. Acts 21:20-25

The other gospel had no requirement for circumcision and the law of Moses (acts 15:10-19 acts 21:25)

if you can still believe both are the same good news, I rest my case
 
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