Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

jgr said:

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

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Hmm - a whole Theology built on ONE word in Revelation.

Bob Carabbio said:

Hmm - a whole Theology built on ONE word in Revelation.

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One word buttressed by many words from the entirety of the Word.

Feel free to disprove it.

With an equal amount of Scripture.

jgr said:

Increase Mather
That part of the world [Europe] was to be principally the Seat of the CHURCH of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist (Ichabod, p. 64).

John Gill
And hence we learn, that antichrist is not one single individual, but many; antichrist in the former clause is explained by antichrists in this; see 1 John 2:22; and though the popes of Rome are, by way of eminence, the antichrist that should come, and which those deceivers were the forerunners of, and paved the way for; yet they are not the only antichrists, there were others before them, and there are many now besides them. (1 John 2 commentary)

Matthew Henry
Christ had a chosen remnant, redeemed by his blood, recorded in his book, sealed by his Spirit and though the devil and antichrist might overcome their bodily strength, and take away their natural life, they could never conquer their souls, nor prevail with them to forsake their Saviour and revolt to his enemies. 9. Here is a demand of attention to what is here discovered of the great sufferings and troubles of the church... (Revelation 13 commentary)

No pretrib to be seen. The Church does not escape antichrist.

Your turn. Actual source quotes of the Church escaping antichrist.

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jgr,

1. There are a couple that are credible on the pre-trib rapture position such as pseudo Ephraim the Syrian and Brother Delano the fransician.
I already knew John Gill believed in the post.
I knew the Shepherd of Hermas could be argued just like Iraneaus etc.
I also knew that even Charles Finley and George Whitefield believed in post trib.
I also knew that most of them were posttrib pre- millennial but believed Christ coming was imminent which is a feature of pre-trib.

2. The reason I posted it was to show that they are products of their time and teachers etc.
For the most part the Catholic Church was not to be trusted. They had some biblical teachings but they mixed their traditions in which were Babylonian cult.
They kept the people from having bibles so they just had to believe what they were told. After all in the dark ages they were corrupt and deceptive and even killed people like Servitus.
They thought and still believe they are the true church through apostolic succession which is false.
The point is there are reasons not to believe their line of thinking.
My POV is to understand the Hebraic view about the Jewish Kingdom and find the verses that tell about the rapture in the Old Testament which were hidden but revealed in the New Testament.
The best at this is Perry Stone. He has 7 parts maybe about 10 minutes a piece.
He goes from proving the kingdom promises of Israel that is separate from the church.
It’s called the 7 years you are in Heaven and Jesus think tank is who posted it on there. He is speaking live and they’re about ten minutes long I believe on them. Except for Luke the Bible is written completely by Jews. Good luck.

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. There are a couple that are credible on the pre-trib rapture position such as pseudo Ephraim the Syrian and Brother Delano the fransician.
I already knew John Gill believed in the post.
I knew the Shepherd of Hermas could be argued just like Iraneaus etc.
I also knew that even Charles Finley and George Whitefield believed in post trib.
I also knew that most of them were posttrib pre- millennial but believed Christ coming was imminent which is a feature of pre-trib.

2. The reason I posted it was to show that they are products of their time and teachers etc.
For the most part the Catholic Church was not to be trusted. They had some biblical teachings but they mixed their traditions in which were Babylonian cult.
They kept the people from having bibles so they just had to believe what they were told. After all in the dark ages they were corrupt and deceptive and even killed people like Servitus.
They thought and still believe they are the true church through apostolic succession which is false.
The point is there are reasons not to believe their line of thinking.
My POV is to understand the Hebraic view about the Jewish Kingdom and find the verses that tell about the rapture in the Old Testament which were hidden but revealed in the New Testament.
The best at this is Perry Stone. He has 7 parts maybe about 10 minutes a piece.
He goes from proving the kingdom promises of Israel that is separate from the church.
It’s called the 7 years you are in Heaven and Jesus think tank is who posted it on there. He is speaking live and they’re about ten minutes long I believe on them. Except for Luke the Bible is written completely by Jews. Good luck.

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jerry,

Still awaiting those quotes.

There is no Israel separate from the Church, because there are no saints identified by physical DNA, only by spiritual DNA, as you've agreed.

No luck needed. The Word says it all.

jgr said:

jerry,

Still awaiting those quotes.

There is no Israel separate from the Church, because there are no saints identified by physical DNA, only by spiritual DNA, as you've agreed.

No luck needed. The Word says it all.

Click to expand...

jgr,

1. You don’t understand?
You want me to believe your teachers but you don’t want to listen to those I believe to be biblical.
This shows how one sided and controlling you and others that believe your position are.
While I respect many things Gill has to say he doesn’t understand the Hebraic perspective.
Debating all you follow doesn’t prove anything on this subject.

2. Spiritual DNA just means salvation by birth of the Spirit.

3. Physical DNA of Israel is and always has been and always will be separate from Gentiles.

4. There is nowhere in scripture that says or implies the church will replace the nation of Israel in their gifts and callings.

5. You don’t even believe the scriptures that says we will rule and reign as the church when 2 Timothy 2:12 says if he suffer ye shall reign. That is talking about physical rule not spiritual.
You don’t believe that David will be King over Israel or that the twelve apostles won’t rule over Israel even though it is plain as a nose on your face.

3. All the blessings of the overcomers in Revelation 2-3 are in Heaven and you can’t receive them unless you go to Heaven proves a pre trib rapture.
We will go back with Christ at the 2nd advent to rule and reign on the earth.
Israel ( sun clothed woman)is on earth the whole time we’re in Heaven.
The remnant of her seed is scattered but will be reunited with the whole nation who has to repent and receive the gifts and callings separate from the church saints.
If the rapture happened at the second advent the remnant would go up. The remnant is not mentioned in conjunction with the church of being purified through the time of Jacob’s trouble which is Jewish.
If you don’t believe in rulership on earth, you don’t believe the Bible.
You understand that the physical dna doesn’t have nothing to with salvation.
But the physical kingdom promised to physical dna of Israel was God’s choice only when they believe and they will because it is eternal.
If you cannot understand this you do not comprehend very well or you are not being truthful.

4. Just because you don’t understand how the Jewish nation will be separate because of supposed DNA being mixed even though I told you, you have to believe God and his word.
If you can’t or won’t believe a simple truth about is ruling and reigning on earth why should I believe that you could digest a whole doctrine in the word of God.
You can have a different belief but it is not to right to be unfair and you are being being unfair in your posting.
Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. You don’t understand?
You want me to believe your teachers but you don’t want to listen to those I believe to be biblical.
This shows how one sided and controlling you and others that believe your position are.
While I respect many things Gill has to say he doesn’t understand the Hebraic perspective.
Debating all you follow doesn’t prove anything on this subject.

2. Spiritual DNA just means salvation by birth of the Spirit.

3. Physical DNA of Israel is and always has been and always will be separate from Gentiles.

4. There is nowhere in scripture that says or implies the church will replace the nation of Israel in their gifts and callings.

5. You don’t even believe the scriptures that says we will rule and reign as the church when 2 Timothy 2:12 says if he suffer ye shall reign. That is talking about physical rule not spiritual.
You don’t believe that David will be King over Israel or that the twelve apostles won’t rule over Israel even though it is plain as a nose on your face.

3. All the blessings of the overcomers in Revelation 2-3 are in Heaven and you can’t receive them unless you go to Heaven proves a pre trib rapture.
We will go back with Christ at the 2nd advent to rule and reign on the earth.
Israel ( sun clothed woman)is on earth the whole time we’re in Heaven.
The remnant of her seed is scattered but will be reunited with the whole nation who has to repent and receive the gifts and callings separate from the church saints.
If the rapture happened at the second advent the remnant would go up. The remnant is not mentioned in conjunction with the church of being purified through the time of Jacob’s trouble which is Jewish.
If you don’t believe in rulership on earth, you don’t believe the Bible.
You understand that the physical dna doesn’t have nothing to with salvation.
But the physical kingdom promised to physical dna of Israel was God’s choice only when they believe and they will because it is eternal.
If you cannot understand this you do not comprehend very well or you are not being truthful.

4. Just because you don’t understand how the Jewish nation will be separate because of supposed DNA being mixed even though I told you, you have to believe God and his word.
If you can’t or won’t believe a simple truth about is ruling and reigning on earth why should I believe that you could digest a whole doctrine in the word of God.
You can have a different belief but it is not to right to be unfair and you are being being unfair in your posting.
Jerrykelso

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jerry,

You said:

"All saints in every age are identified by salvation."

Salvation is by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

Faith is spiritual DNA exclusively.

Are you changing your mind?

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. You don’t understand?
You want me to believe your teachers but you don’t want to listen to those I believe to be biblical.
This shows how one sided and controlling you and others that believe your position are.
While I respect many things Gill has to say he doesn’t understand the Hebraic perspective.
Debating all you follow doesn’t prove anything on this subject.

2. Spiritual DNA just means salvation by birth of the Spirit.

3. Physical DNA of Israel is and always has been and always will be separate from Gentiles.

4. There is nowhere in scripture that says or implies the church will replace the nation of Israel in their gifts and callings.

5. You don’t even believe the scriptures that says we will rule and reign as the church when 2 Timothy 2:12 says if he suffer ye shall reign. That is talking about physical rule not spiritual.
You don’t believe that David will be King over Israel or that the twelve apostles won’t rule over Israel even though it is plain as a nose on your face.

3. All the blessings of the overcomers in Revelation 2-3 are in Heaven and you can’t receive them unless you go to Heaven proves a pre trib rapture.
We will go back with Christ at the 2nd advent to rule and reign on the earth.
Israel ( sun clothed woman)is on earth the whole time we’re in Heaven.
The remnant of her seed is scattered but will be reunited with the whole nation who has to repent and receive the gifts and callings separate from the church saints.
If the rapture happened at the second advent the remnant would go up. The remnant is not mentioned in conjunction with the church of being purified through the time of Jacob’s trouble which is Jewish.
If you don’t believe in rulership on earth, you don’t believe the Bible.
You understand that the physical dna doesn’t have nothing to with salvation.
But the physical kingdom promised to physical dna of Israel was God’s choice only when they believe and they will because it is eternal.
If you cannot understand this you do not comprehend very well or you are not being truthful.

4. Just because you don’t understand how the Jewish nation will be separate because of supposed DNA being mixed even though I told you, you have to believe God and his word.
If you can’t or won’t believe a simple truth about is ruling and reigning on earth why should I believe that you could digest a whole doctrine in the word of God.
You can have a different belief but it is not to right to be unfair and you are being being unfair in your posting.
Jerrykelso

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Your rapture is a modernist dispensational deception, delusion, fantasy, and fallacy.

You cannot produce a single quote by the historical true Church showing the Church escaping antichrist.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. I disagree.
People are not literally seeing the Lamb on the throne. Because of the judgements they will know that they are the object of God’s Wrath.
The seal, trumpets and vials are consecutive. The Wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgements.
The silence in Heaven is a Yom Kippur service.

2. The 7th trumpet is blown by the 7th trumpet angel in the middle of the tribulation with voices in Heaven announcing what will happen in the end when the kingdoms of this world falls.
This is different than the trump of God in 1Thessalonians 4:17 for it heralds in a company of dead and living believers in a moment.
The 7th angel sounding heralds many events which are days in duration Revelation 10:7; 11:15-13:18.
One is a trumpet of blessing 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and the other a trumpet of woe to men Revelation 8:13; 11:10; 12:12.
All the saints fro Adam to the church and the tribulation saints are already in Heaven and come out of Heaven to do war on earth Revelation 19:11-15. It is a mission to save Israel and settle the KoH reign on earth so Christ will be the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:1-9.
So your cycles just cycled out to a dreamland that doesn’t exist. Jerry Kelso

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Can you (1) remove your Pretrib glasses for a moment, (2) check the color coding below, and (3) piece the jigsaw puzzle together yourself. Check out the likeness, continuity and correlation between what all the Scripture. They all describe the same coming, on the same day, producing the same climactic result.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares (or) aifnídios (or suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.

Here, the reader is admonished to be ready for the Lord’s return lest that day catch him aifnídios (or) suddenly. In Christ’s warning of His Coming He explains that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” The snare is all-embracing. The destruction relates to all that miss the catching away; they are caught helplessly in a trap with no escape. Just like Noah and Lot’s days, there will be no survivors at the second coming of the Lord. The destruction shall come as a snare on all the inhabitants of the earth that are outside of Christ.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ [Gr. paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The second coming indeed takes place at the same time as the destruction of death. This is speaking of something that occurs “at the last trump.” Also, it is describing the arrangement that will be ushered in by God at that glorious event: a state of “incorruption.” Thirdly, it is chronicling the conditions for embracing that perfect state: namely a supernatural change in which man is suitably clothed in order to inherit the said state: “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Everything about this passage is climactic. Particularly interesting about this last trumpet is the fact that it confirms “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Firstly, we are entering into eternity, secondly, “the kingdoms of this world” have finally been submitted unto Christ. Never again will they rise up in rebellion against righteousness and truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

jgr said:

You said:

"All saints in every age are identified by salvation."

Salvation is by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

Faith is spiritual DNA exclusively.

Are you changing your mind?

Click to expand...

jgr,

Nobody is arguing that point.
That is Israel’s requirement to be able to rule and reign on earth with Christ.
Man has to have a holy heart to rule and reign with Christ whether it is the church or the nation of Israel.
They will rule in Israel with Christ at the head of the nations for Christ will rule from Israel as King of all the earth.
The church saints will rule in other places on the earth as king priests and kings. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. There are a couple that are credible on the pre-trib rapture position such as pseudo Ephraim the Syrian and Brother Delano the fransician.
I already knew John Gill believed in the post.
I knew the Shepherd of Hermas could be argued just like Iraneaus etc.
I also knew that even Charles Finley and George Whitefield believed in post trib.
I also knew that most of them were posttrib pre- millennial but believed Christ coming was imminent which is a feature of pre-trib.

2. The reason I posted it was to show that they are products of their time and teachers etc.
For the most part the Catholic Church was not to be trusted. They had some biblical teachings but they mixed their traditions in which were Babylonian cult.
They kept the people from having bibles so they just had to believe what they were told. After all in the dark ages they were corrupt and deceptive and even killed people like Servitus.
They thought and still believe they are the true church through apostolic succession which is false.
The point is there are reasons not to believe their line of thinking.
My POV is to understand the Hebraic view about the Jewish Kingdom and find the verses that tell about the rapture in the Old Testament which were hidden but revealed in the New Testament.
The best at this is Perry Stone. He has 7 parts maybe about 10 minutes a piece.
He goes from proving the kingdom promises of Israel that is separate from the church.
It’s called the 7 years you are in Heaven and Jesus think tank is who posted it on there. He is speaking live and they’re about ten minutes long I believe on them. Except for Luke the Bible is written completely by Jews. Good luck.

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Can you furnish us with any historic quote from pseudo Ephraim the Syrian, the Shepherd of Hermas or Iraneaus that clearly teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ? Or are you doing with the early writers what you do with Scripture - misrepresenting it to fit your error?

sovereigngrace said:

Can you (1) remove your Pretrib glasses for a moment, (2) check the color coding below, and (3) piece the jigsaw puzzle together yourself. Check out the likeness, continuity and correlation between what 1 Thessalonians is telling us and the following texts. They all describe the same coming, on the same day, producing the same climactic result.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares (or) aifnídios (or suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.

Here, the reader is admonished to be ready for the Lord’s return lest that day catch him aifnídios (or) suddenly. In Christ’s warning of His Coming He explains that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” The snare is all-embracing. The destruction relates to all that miss the catching away; they are caught helplessly in a trap with no escape. Just like Noah and Lot’s days, there will be no survivors at the second coming of the Lord. The destruction shall come as a snare on all the inhabitants of the earth that are outside of Christ.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ [Gr. paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The second coming indeed takes place at the same time as the destruction of death. This is speaking of something that occurs “at the last trump.” Also, it is describing the arrangement that will be ushered in by God at that glorious event: a state of “incorruption.” Thirdly, it is chronicling the conditions for embracing that perfect state: namely a supernatural change in which man is suitably clothed in order to inherit the said state: “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Everything about this passage is climactic. Particularly interesting about this last trumpet is the fact that it confirms “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Firstly, we are entering into eternity, secondly, “the kingdoms of this world” have finally been submitted unto Christ. Never again will they rise up in rebellion against righteousness and truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

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sovereign grace,

I have to go to sleep but suffice to say you don’t believe in the Hebraic perspective. And you couldn’t prove the post rapture just in the book of Revelation. So you’re gonna have to do better than that.
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

Nobody is arguing that point.
That is Israel’s requirement to be able to rule and reign on earth with Christ.
Man has to have a holy heart to rule and reign with Christ whether it is the church or the nation of Israel.
They will rule in Israel with Christ at the head of the nations for Christ will rule from Israel as King of all the earth.
The church saints will rule in other places on the earth as king priests and kings. Jerry Kelso

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Those of Israel who become saints by faith are added to the saints by faith of the true Church.

The saints of the true Church are the only saints there are.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

I have to go to sleep but suffice to say you don’t believe in the Hebraic perspective. And you couldn’t prove the post rapture just in the book of Revelation. So you’re gonna have to do better than that.
Jerry Kelso

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You have furnished us with nothing. I have presented many water tight passages that expose Pretrib and prove the second coming is climactic. You sidestep these because you have no answers. The observer can read back and note who is quoting hard evidence and who is ducking and diving. You have nothing in Scripture and nothing in history up until Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

sovereigngrace said:

Can you furnish us with any historic quote from pseudo Ephraim the Syrian, the Shepherd of Hermas or Iraneaus that clearly teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ? Or are your doing wit the early writers what you do with Scripture misrepresenting bit to fit your error?

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sovereign grace,

Thomas Ice of Liberty University wrote about but Dave McPherson didn’t believe it.
I told jgr that wasn’t the point to argue about what teachers say.
The fact is he wouldn’t listen to Perry Stone at all . It just shows how some of those postribbers are one sided and full of control about their position. It’s lopsided, ridiculous and shameful. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

Thomas Ice of Liberty University wrote about but Dave McPherson didn’t believe it.
I told jgr that wasn’t the point to argue about what teachers say.
The fact is he wouldn’t listen to Perry Stone at all . It just shows how some of those postribbers are one sided and full of control about their position. It’s lopsided, ridiculous and shameful. Jerry Kelso

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Like you, Thomas Ice has been unable to provide any support for Pretrib error. I spoke to him in Northern Ireland in front of another Pastor and he admitted there is no clear Scripture that supports the Pretrib paradigm. There is a reason why many of us have abandoned it. It is a Jesuit lie that enjoys no biblical support and is an infiltration of Protestantism.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

Thomas Ice of Liberty University wrote about but Dave McPherson didn’t believe it.
I told jgr that wasn’t the point to argue about what teachers say.
The fact is he wouldn’t listen to Perry Stone at all . It just shows how some of those postribbers are one sided and full of control about their position. It’s lopsided, ridiculous and shameful. Jerry Kelso

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No value in listening to modernist fantasy and fallacy.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

Thomas Ice of Liberty University wrote about but Dave McPherson didn’t believe it.
I told jgr that wasn’t the point to argue about what teachers say.
The fact is he wouldn’t listen to Perry Stone at all . It just shows how some of those postribbers are one sided and full of control about their position. It’s lopsided, ridiculous and shameful. Jerry Kelso

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Zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence before Lacunza = zero legitimate admissible evidence.

jerry kelso said:

Thomas Ice of Liberty University wrote about but Dave McPherson didn’t believe it.

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sovereigngrace said:

Thomas Ice is discredited. Like you, he has been unable to provide any support for Pretrib error.

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Yeah. And for those dispens who trot out Irenaeus as pretrib, Ice conceded that fallacy:

Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"

jgr said:

Yeah. And for those dispens who trot out Irenaeus as pretrib, Ice conceded that fallacy:

Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"

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jgr,
I don’t really care.
You’re position is not right and you can’t prove it biblically across the board.
You need to learn to rightly divide the word from the true Hebraic perspective.
They wrote the Bible.
You would rather follow man than Gods Word.
When the rapture is isn’t necessarily going to mess with your salvation.
show me your post rapture in the book of Revelation alone since you are so certain. Jerry kelso

sovereigngrace said:

Zero biblical evidence + zero historic evidence before Lacunza = zero legitimate admissible evidence.

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sovereign nation

I don’t agree with you but I don’t say you have zero Biblical evidence or zero
historical evidence before whoever or zero legitimate evidence. You’re just being ridiculous and unfair.
You touting post trib rapture is your right but the pre-trib rapture is the most popular view today? I am not trying to use that fact.
You’re whole spirit of posting and tone and wording and what you are saying is just like the dark ages who believe they are the only true church, that carry the only truth, and that are legalistic, my way or no way, and try to snuff out every other position especially pre-trib.
I challenged you to show a post rapture in Revelation alone and I debunked it and you never answered back to my rebuttal. You just went to a completely different thing.
I gave you my position in Revelation alone, did you pass it by?
Jerry kelso