God's people (ekklesia) are one from the beginning

keras

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I think you are in a pickle more than i.
But your pickle is in a 'square shaped box'!
I asked how are billions of people going to fit in a temple, Jerusalem, or even the area of Palestine with out stepping on toes? What if it is 20 billion? You have never provided an answer.
I have answered this question many times. It shows gross ignorance of the Promises of God to His people. Genesis 15:18 gives the size of the holy Land.
The other thing is you do not see a bodily resurrection until the GWT. Are you going to change that to more of a pre-trib scenario? Are just the 24 elders the only ones in Jerusalem, sitting in the Temple?
There is a bodily resurrection of only the GT martyrs, at Jesus Return. Rev 20:4

The 24 elders are spiritual beings and reside in heaven. Revelation 4:10
Paradise is not space.
Paradise; is the description for how it will be after the GWT Judgment, when the new heavens and the new earth are made and Eternity is ushered in. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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Timtofly

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But your pickle is in a 'square shaped box'!

I have answered this question many times. It shows gross ignorance of the Promises of God to His people. Genesis 15:18 gives the size of the holy Land.

There is a bodily resurrection of only the GT martyrs, at Jesus Return. Rev 20:4

The 24 elders are spiritual beings and reside in heaven. Revelation 4:10

Paradise; is the description for how it will be after the GWT Judgment, when the new heavens and the new earth are made and Eternity is ushered in. Revelation 21:1-7
Paradise was promised that day, to the thief on the cross.

Many came out of the graves that day, as Jesus proclaimed, "It is finished."

After Jesus ascended on Sunday, He returned several times to the upper room.

Yet none of what Jesus did was passed on to the living. They still had to die in their sinful, physical bodies. Nor did the church ever reign on earth. That was the apostate rebellious harlot. Even those who came out after a few generations, the church kept slipping back, time and again into apostasy.

So why should a living half dead church, have preference over those who actually died for their faith and were resurrected?
 
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sovereigngrace

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When it comes to Salvation, there was only one covenant between God and Adam. God Himself would be the Atonement to redeem all of Adam's descendants back to God. Then even the sons of God rebelled and followed after Adam's fallen nature. The covenant was always there. Not many on earth acknowledged it until Abraham was introduced to it. Yes there were OT believers under the same covenant since Adam. It was considered new in relationship with the economy of the Law. The Law was the new covenant. It was an economy centered around the tabernacle for a select family inheritance of Abraham through Jacob. It was not Salvation nor Atonement. Did that Law and covenant fade out or was it replaced by a more republic or democratic economy? Daniel's image of earthly government seemed to indicate that the Law would not last, even if the Temple was rebuilt. God never returned to the Second temple. The fulness of time was in the midst of the 4th and final major kingdom. The covenant with Adam and the redemption of mankind was never an earthly attempt at a kingdom. Neither was the covenant of the Law. The Nations once again took away any earthly enforcement of a political or economic covenant. The church was a spiritual body, not an earthly body. Except someone decided to take Satan's offer of reigning over the earth’s kingdoms and changed "church" history forever.

The church had a covenant, and maybe even a following since Adam. Enoch was a righteous man, type of church, pre-Flood. Noah belonged to that group. Job was a righteous man, post Flood church. We are just never told who by God. Then came Abraham and Jacob. Called out assembly, of ethnical identity. A physical economy and Law. Still, some in this family were spiritually part of the church, that would be part of Adam's covenant of Atonement and redemption. David with the Psalms was the most vocal preacher of the Gospel in the OT. David did not have a congregation. God still used the inspired Word of God though.

The problem is rightly dividing the spiritual covenant since Adam, and the earthly economic covenant that Moses recorded as the physical covenant. Technically the new covenant that was short lived. Jesus embodied the spiritual covenant in physical ministry, and was God Himself, Adam's Atonement. The Cross being the act of redeeming Adam's descendants back to God. To God it did not matter when Jesus came, as much as we think it matters as a connection between an old and new covenant.

Jesus was the second Adam. Thus the oldest and only covenant that mattered was the Atonement on the Cross. What the physical covenant could not do as an earthly kingdom, the church was supposed to change all kingdoms from the bottom up. That did not even last as long as the physical covenant did. The spiritual covenant was hijacked into a physical covenant with Satan himself. So just like before the Flood, and before Abraham, and before the congregation in the wilderness, the spiritual church, was small and lost to history. The covenant was presented as a physical one from the leaders of the government, herself, dictating a false god to the governed.

Yes there is a large ground up spiritual body, but how to distinguish it from the false body is only in God's sight. To say a covenant or redemption is at the mercy of some religion or denomination would be dead wrong. Theology has as much to do with Salvation and Atonement as a restaurant menu would work as a national constitution.

There is only one covenant God is dealing with right now, and that is the spiritual one with Adam.

I think that to completely rule out the physical covenant is wrong. Those who try to say the physical covenant given to Moses was one of Salvation and Redemption are just plain wrong. Both covenants are in effect, but the physical has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles ( the descendants of Adam ) comes to an end. The church really has no say or authority over the physical covenant. The church barely handles the spiritual covenant well. Especially a church that is so wrapped up in the physical. That is why amil are wrong. The soon coming, Day of the Lord, is a physical covenant not a spiritual covenant. The church will not be on earth, but in the temple of God, Paradise. The thing about election is you cannot pick and choose which covenant you are under. But no one is forced into nor denied either. All humans have a choice to choose or reject God.

And what has this to do with the topic?
 
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Sammy-San

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The Hebrew words that are used in the Old Testament to describe the overall company of the children of Israel are qâhâl and ‛êdâh. These words are usually translated, and mean, “congregation” or “assembly.” But, the Old Testament was not just written in Hebrew; it was also written in Greek. Interestingly, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) normally uses the word ekklesia (from ek- + kaleo, meaning “to call”) in place of these two Hebrew words to describe the gathering of the congregation of old covenant Israel. The word ekklesia literally means ‘the called-out assembly’. Notwithstanding: there are some instances where the Greek Old Testament translators use the word sunagoge to represent the same Hebrew words.

When you examine the usage of qâhâl and ‛êdâh in the Old Testament, you discover that they are interchangeably used throughout the ancient text and are considered by most Hebrew scholars to be synonymous, even though they are different Hebrew words. There are even times when these same or similar Hebrew words are linked together in the same text in order to describe ‘the congregating [verb] of the congregation [noun]’ or ‘the assembling [verb] of the assembly [noun]’. Number 20:1-13 is a case-in-point.

This should help us understand the true meaning and origin of the Greek word ekklesia. When used in a religious sense, we are basically looking at the congregation or assembly of God’s people. The word ekklesia can apply to a secular gathering, so the translator’s insistence upon the word “Church” is misplaced and not an appropriate rendering of the word.

Anders Runesson, a professor of New Testament at the University of Oslo, Norway, explains: “the ancient Mediterranean world, the word ekklesia was used in various ways and for various types of both political and unofficial, or semi-public institutions … The way the word ‘ekklesia’ functions in these ancient discourses thus differs from how the term ‘church’ functions in common usage today; if we agree that a translation should communicate approximate meaning across time and culture then clearly this particular translation is inaccurate. A historically more attuned translation of ekklēsia would be ‘assembly’, since this word leaves open for a variety of applications in religio-political or semi-public settings and does not lock the meaning of ekklesia into an anachronistic frame of reference” (Ekklesia).

The exact same Greek word used in the Greek Old Testament (ekklesia) is also used in the Greek New Testament to describe God’s people. This is no mere coincidence. It shows us the practical and spiritual connection and link between both. It is therefore right and reasonable for us to understand and translate the word in a similar vein in the New Testament. We should remember that it was the believing remnant of the Old Testament ekklesia of Israel (true Israel) that in fact became the infant New Testament Church (ekklesia or congregation or assembly). The Gospel was actually received and embraced first by those among natural Israel who had eyes to see and ears to hear.

Granted, whether one interprets ekklesia as “congregation,” “assembly,” “gathering” or “Church” does not change the overall New Testament reality. The fact remains, the word still describes the same overall religious company. But what is sure is that the forceful, undeniable and consistent evidence before us proves that the ekklesia refers to the gathering of God’s people throughout all ages.

Theologian John J Parsons who majors in Hebrew research, explains: “It appears to be a major fault of various English translations of the Christian Bible that the word ‘Church’ was translated for the Greek word ekklesia in the New Testament, since this suggests an anti-Jewish bias in their work by implying that there is a radical discontinuity between ‘Israel’ and the the ekklesia of Jesus (i.e., the ‘Church’). In other words, if the same Greek word (ekklesia) is used in both the LXX and the NT, then why was a new word coined for its usage in the English translation of the New Testament? Why not translate the word as it was used in the LXX, or better still, as it was used in the OT Scriptures?”

He continues: “In the New Testament sense, the word ekklesia refers to the group of ‘called out’ people (from every tribe and tongue) in covenant with God by means of their trust in Jesus Christ. In particular, this is composed of only those people who confess their faith that Jesus (Yeshua) is none other than Adonai come in the flesh.”

The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalist conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.

The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

The Old Testament prophets lamented for centuries over the blindness and deafness of many among visible outward Israel (Isaiah 6:9–10, Jeremiah 5:21, and Ezekiel 12:2). This prepared the way for Christ and His liberating spiritual message to the nation. Jesus directed strong rebukes to those within natural Israel that professed but didn’t possess. He warned in Matthew 13:15-16: “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”

Many had eyes to see in the natural but they did not have eyes to see in the spiritual. They had ears to hear in the natural but they did not have ears to hear in the spiritual.

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day. Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering. Elect Israel and the elect Church were/are the same entity. The word ekklesia conveys the idea of a common assembly in both eras. The New Testament ekklesia is simply an extension of the Old Testament ekklesia (qâhâl or ‛êdâh), albeit it has taken on a different form under the new covenant.

Mirroring the process that a caterpillar undergoes developing into the maturity and beauty of a colorful butterfly, the Old Testament Church underwent a significant metamorphic change in the New Testament, progressing into the current Spirit-filled international New Testament Church. The ekklesia essentially took on wings! That is not to say that we can separate the elect of God in either dispensation or view them as two different entities. Rather, we must view both as the same organic entity. Just because Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church carry different names and possess a different outward appearance and scope of movement does not negate the fact they are the same overall entity.

Ray Porter highlights a notable difference with the New Testament ekklesia compared to its old covenant counterpart. He shows that it is found in the fact that it is “united not on the basis of a shared culture, language, or previous religious loyalties, but … [is] united around the Messiah” (The Church Local, Wider, and Universal).

Dispensational theologians do their best to put a wedge between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. They try to divide them into two unrelated entities. They advocate an apartheid between both and teach a separation theology. They suggest that there is a total disconnect and a radical discontinuity between the Old Testament ekklesia and the New Testament ekklesia. They argue that they are two completely distinct and separate entities. However, repeated New Testament Scripture demonstrates that the believing element (or righteous remnant) of the Old Testament congregation and that of the New Testament congregation are spiritually joined through Christ, and His atoning work on the cross.

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament ekklesia as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no origin prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is a “mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say, because the New Testament Church is expressly called “the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God” that it is a brand-new construction started in the upper room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss, or deliberately distort, is that Paul was actually teaching the complete opposite to what they assert. Ephesians 3:1-9 tells us: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The debate is not over whether the ekklesia was some new innovation or whether it has replaced Israel or not (because it hasn’t) but rather, (1) is the new covenant congregation of God’s people spiritually connected to the old covenant congregation of God’s people and (2) do believing Gentiles after the cross enjoy an equal status with believing Jews?

The mystery regarding the congregation is not that it was unknown to the Old Testament prophets, but rather that believing Gentiles were integrated into the believing congregation on an equal footing (as fellow heirs) as existing Jewish believers. Dispensationalists fail to see that the ekklesia is not a New Testament novelty introduced at Pentecost but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning.

The new covenant congregation is not something entirely unique and new in God’s plan and purposes, totally separated from His old covenant people, but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. The New Testament assembly is the ongoing continuation of faithful old covenant Israel. Whilst the New Testament gathering has taken on a different form under the new covenant, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul identifies “the mystery” here in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Here is the crux of his argument: he demonstrates that the notable metamorphosis that occurred as the old covenant ekklesia changed into the new covenant ekklesia resulted in the Gentiles assuming an equal footing to the Jews. There is no longer any favoritism. The mystery is the parity that occurred from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

Paul never said that the ekklesia wasn’t about before Pentecost, as Dispensationalists wrongly argue. In fact, he teaches the opposite. The Dispensational interpretation is the exact reverse to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body.

It was always God’s heart to expand His old covenant congregation (the ekklesia) out beyond the borders of national Israel, to reach the Gentile people. The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God’s great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Dispensationalists make the existence of the ekklesia the “mystery” in order to support their theology, even though it has been around as long as there have been believers.

Thomas Croskery explains in his in-depth classic research from 1879: “Though the prophets foretold that the Gentiles were to be blessed in Abraham, it was not made known to them in what manner the blessing was to be realized. This was the special revelation to which the apostle alludes when he speaks of the dispensation committed to himself as the apostle to the Gentiles.”

He adds: “we, of this dispensation, were to be incorporated into the ‘one commonwealth’, from which we were alienated, into the ‘one body’, the ‘one household’, the ‘one building fitly framed together’. The mystery was the admission of Gentiles to share on equal terms with the Jews all the blessings purchased by Christ” (Plymouth-Brethrenism: A Refutation of Its Principles and Doctrines).

Ephesians 3:1-9 is just another example of the gradual spiritual unfolding of the progressive revelation of God. In this instance, it shows how New Testament Gentiles would possess an equal status to that of New Testament Jews under the new covenant arrangement. This was something that was largely veiled in the Old Testament.

John Gay explains: “The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be ‘in Christ’ (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).”

He sums up: “The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel. Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. These called-out ones are saved by faith in the pattern of their spiritual father, Abraham (Romans 4:11). Thus, while only some in the Church are physically Jewish, all in the Church are spiritually Jewish. They are circumcised of the heart (Romans 2:29), the offspring of Abraham (Romans 4:16) and citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19)” (Remnant Theology, A Different Perspective on the Church and Israel).

Do you think Israelites can be saved just by believing in the Messiah? Or because Jesus came the rules changed?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Do you think Israelites can be saved just by believing in the Messiah? Or because Jesus came the rules changed?

Man is not ignorant to who He is. The Messiah has a name. He has been revealed. His name is Jesus. We do not need to guess. The NT makes it clear if we deny Christ is reject salvation. Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Jesus was our signpost to heaven. He was our direction. He was the way! What is more, when men saw Christ they saw truth, when they heard Christ they heard truth, when they embraced Christ they embraced truth. He also was the embodiment of eternal life. Without Him is spiritual death.

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” He then goes on to explain, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (John 10:9).

Favor with God can come only through Jesus Christ. He is heaven’s only means of access to God. Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

This is God’s only way to heaven. Christ is the center-point of salvation. We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven. There is no alternative arrangement pertaining to race or any other distinction. 1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Of course, Christ is the Rock that the believer stands on. He is the only spiritual foundation for man. Men either build their house upon that Rock or build it upon sand. Sand is self! A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of the storm but the house built upon the sand falls apart. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

This couldn’t be any clearer! There is no Plan B. There is no back-doors into heaven. There is no alternative salvation. There is no other means of man gaining favor with God! There is no other way to become a child of God. There is no other path to be God’s one of God’s elect.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Ok, what does this mean? Simple: those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ, don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are therefore under condemnation and are of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?

A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.

1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

The teaching of Scripture couldn’t be plainer: Jews who do recognize Christ as Messiah are saved. Jews who do not recognize Christ as Messiah are lost. The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

If a sinner refuses Christ, he refuses the Father. This couldn’t be clearer in Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

So, those that reject Jesus, reject salvation. Those that reject Jesus, reject the Father. Those that reject Jesus, are children of the devil. This is seen throughout the inspired New Testament account.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:6: “blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.”

We don’t need to speculate about what natural Israel currently thinks of Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

There is no neutrality with this Jesus. There is no room for fence-sitting when it comes to Him. You are either for Him or against Him.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. In fact, there is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid and runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!
 
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sovereigngrace

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When it comes to Salvation, there was only one covenant between God and Adam. God Himself would be the Atonement to redeem all of Adam's descendants back to God. Then even the sons of God rebelled and followed after Adam's fallen nature. The covenant was always there. Not many on earth acknowledged it until Abraham was introduced to it. Yes there were OT believers under the same covenant since Adam. It was considered new in relationship with the economy of the Law. The Law was the new covenant. It was an economy centered around the tabernacle for a select family inheritance of Abraham through Jacob. It was not Salvation nor Atonement. Did that Law and covenant fade out or was it replaced by a more republic or democratic economy? Daniel's image of earthly government seemed to indicate that the Law would not last, even if the Temple was rebuilt. God never returned to the Second temple. The fulness of time was in the midst of the 4th and final major kingdom. The covenant with Adam and the redemption of mankind was never an earthly attempt at a kingdom. Neither was the covenant of the Law. The Nations once again took away any earthly enforcement of a political or economic covenant. The church was a spiritual body, not an earthly body. Except someone decided to take Satan's offer of reigning over the earth’s kingdoms and changed "church" history forever.

The church had a covenant, and maybe even a following since Adam. Enoch was a righteous man, type of church, pre-Flood. Noah belonged to that group. Job was a righteous man, post Flood church. We are just never told who by God. Then came Abraham and Jacob. Called out assembly, of ethnical identity. A physical economy and Law. Still, some in this family were spiritually part of the church, that would be part of Adam's covenant of Atonement and redemption. David with the Psalms was the most vocal preacher of the Gospel in the OT. David did not have a congregation. God still used the inspired Word of God though.

The problem is rightly dividing the spiritual covenant since Adam, and the earthly economic covenant that Moses recorded as the physical covenant. Technically the new covenant that was short lived. Jesus embodied the spiritual covenant in physical ministry, and was God Himself, Adam's Atonement. The Cross being the act of redeeming Adam's descendants back to God. To God it did not matter when Jesus came, as much as we think it matters as a connection between an old and new covenant.

Jesus was the second Adam. Thus the oldest and only covenant that mattered was the Atonement on the Cross. What the physical covenant could not do as an earthly kingdom, the church was supposed to change all kingdoms from the bottom up. That did not even last as long as the physical covenant did. The spiritual covenant was hijacked into a physical covenant with Satan himself. So just like before the Flood, and before Abraham, and before the congregation in the wilderness, the spiritual church, was small and lost to history. The covenant was presented as a physical one from the leaders of the government, herself, dictating a false god to the governed.

Yes there is a large ground up spiritual body, but how to distinguish it from the false body is only in God's sight. To say a covenant or redemption is at the mercy of some religion or denomination would be dead wrong. Theology has as much to do with Salvation and Atonement as a restaurant menu would work as a national constitution.

There is only one covenant God is dealing with right now, and that is the spiritual one with Adam.

I think that to completely rule out the physical covenant is wrong. Those who try to say the physical covenant given to Moses was one of Salvation and Redemption are just plain wrong. Both covenants are in effect, but the physical has been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles ( the descendants of Adam ) comes to an end. The church really has no say or authority over the physical covenant. The church barely handles the spiritual covenant well. Especially a church that is so wrapped up in the physical. That is why amil are wrong. The soon coming, Day of the Lord, is a physical covenant not a spiritual covenant. The church will not be on earth, but in the temple of God, Paradise. The thing about election is you cannot pick and choose which covenant you are under. But no one is forced into nor denied either. All humans have a choice to choose or reject God.

As in Adam all die, but in Christ all live. Anyone from the beginning that by faith does not have part in Christ's death, burial and resurrection will not experience eternal life.
 
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