KJV only?

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tulc

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Now don't get all excited but I have a serious question about KJV only beliefs: what if you don't speak English? I know that sounds stupid but most people in the world don't speak or read English, does that mean every language has their own KJV as it were?
tulc(not looking for a fight, just curious?)

(my first thread! today I am a grownup!)
 

Ezra

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30th March 2003 at 10:13 PM tulc said this in Post #1[/i]  I know that sounds stupid but most people in the world don't speak or read English, does that mean every language has their own KJV as it were? 

It's a fair question and has a straightforward answer. Bible societies publishing the KJV also publish in almost every other known written language, based upon the same Hebrew and Greek texts and/or the KJV. So in effect, every language had, and has it's own KJV. For example, Luther's German translation is a replica of the KJV, and during the Reformation all Reformation Bibles matched the KJV in various languages.
 
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The translators of the King James Bible were basically revising an earlier version (the Bishop's Bible, 1602), and a number of earlier versions. Their concern for accuracy and lucid English made it a remarkable translation. I wouldn't recommend it, actually, mainly because I don't speak the same language King James spoke. Languages are more fluid than many realize, so there will always be a need for new translations and revisions. On the market there is a veritable banquet of translations, all of them helpful. However, if anyone is inclined to be contentious about it, it's not a hot-button issue for me. God bless, Al
 
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filosofer

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Luther's German translation is a replica of the KJV, and during the Reformation all Reformation Bibles matched the KJV in various languages

Let's see, a quick timeline will help us:

Martin Luther translated the NT in 1522 and the OT in 1534. Martin Luther used the 1516 edition of Ersamus' Greek NT;

The KJV was translated and published in 1611.... the Greek NT text used as the basis for translation by the KJV translators wasn't printed until 1555.

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Yep, makes sense, the Reformers used the KJV! ;) Probably the Apostle Paul used it too! :D

Don't you just hate it when facts get in the way of a theory? :D
 
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Jesusong

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Why would God inspire the originals and then not preserve them as promised?

But God has preserved them, the problem is that your definition of preservation is not valid, especially when you take scripture passages out of the context they were given and tie them to definitions that they don't apply to. By doing this you wrestle the word of God to fit your theological presuppositions. The word of God does not conform to our theology, but rather, our theology must conform to the word of God. 
 
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Jesusong

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How do you think God has preserved the "originals"?


When the churches received the letters from Paul, Peter, John, etc. they made copies of them to share with other churches and so forth. The New Testament literally exploded across the Roman Empire as copies of the letters of Paul, Peter, Luke, etc. found their way in far remote areas bringing forth the light of the gospel in a very short amount time. In this way God protected the NT text from the one thing no one would be abe to detect: the wholesale change of doctrine, or theology from what was originally given. By the time any ecclesiatical organization acheived any world wide influence or power, important manuscripts such as p66, or p75, were long buried in the sands of Egypt, or others were so far removed to the most remote places on Earth that no one but the people who had them knew anything about it. In this way God preserved his word in its theology & doctrine.

The flip side of this is the amount of variation that can creep into the text. Variations can come in the form of word order ( such as Christ Jesus, to Jesus Christ) , added titles ( such as from  Jesus Christ to the Lord Jesus Christ ) , importation of passages from other parts of the NT into a particular text, for the sake of "harmonization." etc. Once a variation gets into a text, it doesn't go away, it gets copied, & recopied, ad infinitum. This is one of the reasons that God has raise up some to be teachers, so that we can be better equiped to understand the word of God. And I thank God for such teachers, like "filo" who come in here often, or others like James White, Kenneth Wuest, Tim Lahaye. The church today has been abundantly blessed with such an anointing of teachers that we should take advantage of what we have while we have them.  
 
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Jephunneh

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Psalm 12
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


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Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?



Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17

God has used the KJV because it is His Word, which He has providentially watched over. Even though the KJV only goes back to 1611, nevertheless it is based upon the text and versions which preceded it. These texts and manuscripts are the ones that Bible believers have used down through the ages. It is a known fact that 85% to 95% of all ancient manuscripts are in basic agreement with the KJV, but not with the modern versions.
 
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Jesusong

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Using Psalm 12:6-7 as a definition for preservation of the scriptures is exactly what I was talking about in the previous post. The context of the entire psalm are the people not the scripture. When you look at the history of the copies of the text through the centuries, it is remarkable how nothing was removed. Alot had been added to it, and even with that the text was still preserved.

It is a known fact that 85% to 95% of all ancient manuscripts are in basic agreement with the KJV

Your statement is backwards. It should be that the KJV is in basic agreement with 85-95% of the ancient manuscripts. The KJV is not the standard by which all manuscripts are judged by, nor is it the standard by which all bible translations are judged by.
 
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Jephunneh

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Psalm 12:6-7 says, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Also in Psalm 100:5 that ". . . . his truth endureth to all generations," and Jesus said in John 17:17 that God's WORD is truth.

These words state very clearly that God's preserved word MUST be available to us today, because God PROMISED to preserve it for us. There MUST be an infallible Book somewhere

So , if the Authorized Version isn't the infallible word of God, then WHAT IS? There has to be a Book somewhere in "all generations" which is God's word; so what book is it?
 
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Jesusong

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There you go again quoting psalm 12 like it was some kind of mantra. Psalm100:5 says that his truth endures forever, and yes even though his word is true & truth, as stated in John 17:17, this doesn't mean that every word written down must survive. God is not petty. The truth of his word is what is surviving. It is surviving within the hearts of his church which his Son bought with his own blood. It is to the church that Jesus promised that we have been place upon a solid rock, it is to the church that Jesus promised that even the gates of hell will not be able to stand up against it. It is this church that recognizes what his word is through the moving of the Holy Spirit, which he gave to the church as a gift. And oh! what a valuable gift He is. :bow:

There MUST be an infallible Book somewhere

So , if the Authorized Version isn't the infallible word of God, then WHAT IS? There has to be a Book somewhere in "all generations" which is God's word; so what book is it?

You are too focused on this "infallible Book" that has to exist somewhere.

All of our translations are not infallible, nor will they ever be. There are mistakes in the NIV that I use, there are mistakes in the KJV that we both use, there are mistakes in the NASB, NKJV, NEB, etc. There are mistakes only because they are translations. The mistakes may come in misapplying grammatical rules, poor word selection, out dated words, etc. This is why we always go back to the Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic manuscripts, and re-read the passage to get the correct understanding. As I've said before, this is why God has placed in the church "teachers" who, through the help of the Holy Spirit, will guide the church into the truth of God. The sad part of this is that you probably won't even see this because you are too focused on finding The infallibile book somewhere.
 
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Jephunneh

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I HAVE Gods infallibile words, they are perfect, preserved without proven error or contridiction, I'm not looking for them.

Read the Book God uses and Satan Hates The Holy Bible Authorized King James Version.


Always correct the original Greek with the English!
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You might say, "But ALL translations are God's word, not just one." That's impossible, because the various translations contain different readings, and God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33).

The words "translate" and "translated" occur three times in the Bible, and GOD is the Translator each time.
The (so called) scholars insist that the KJV cannot be infallible, because it is "only a translation."
Do you suppose that such scholars have checked II Samuel 3:10, Colossians 1:13, and Hebrews 11:5 to see what GOD has to say about translating?
 
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Let's just grant the assumption that God's exact wordings are important. If you know anything about language, you know that translating into another language loses some meaning. So this would mean that only the original language would have the full meaning that God intended. KJV is english, therefore would not be completely all that God intended.

By assuming that God is worried about the exact wording of the bible, you are assuming that God somehow had the bible as part of His plan. You are assuming that He wrote the books inside to us. I think that we can learn much from the letters and books in the bible. We can gather what the gospel is all about, realize practical applications of the gospel in our life, and learn more about Christ through the bible. On the other hand, we have to realize that these "books" of the bible were letters or historical accounts that were not addressed to the New York City church, or the church at Houston. Instead they were addressed to Theopholis, the Corinthian church, the Ephesian church, etc. The letters included personal salutations and practical advice for the church in that city in that time. By realizing what the bible is made up of, we can realize that it is not all about the wording that is used in it, but instead the truths that we learn about our Father and Christ.

Further, you should research the KJV and figure out how it came to be. It was not translated by inspired men, but people who were attempting to translate Koine Greek into 17th century English. As English has changed, the translation has needed to be changed to convey the same meaning that was intended. You should research how translations have been produced and you should then decide which you think would be more accurate. All translations have weaknesses, definetly including the KJV.
 
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Jephunneh

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Inspiration is when God takes a blank piece of paper (papyrus, vellum, etc.) and uses men to write His words.

Preservation is when God takes those words already written and uses men to preserve them to today.

Both of these actions are DIVINE and are assured by God as recorded in Psalm 12:6, 7.
6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, 0 LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
 
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