Archbishop Elpidophoros of GOA closing out the DNC with a prayer.

ArmyMatt

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Okay, I see, if you're reading it as, "We pray that You would shine the light of Your countenance ... for the highest office in the land", that would indeed make sense as a third thing in a list, but I don't think that would be his meaning. I think the reading in Archbishop Elpidophoros of GOA closing out the DNC with a prayer. is more sensible but either reading is more sensible than thinking the Archbishop was praying an endorsement of Biden rather than the exact sort of prayers offered at both conventions for at least the last couple decades by the Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese.

yeah, that was how it seemed to be at least to me. and, obviously, if we get a prayer at the RNC it would not be an endorsement of either party.
 
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rusmeister

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yeah, that was how it seemed to be at least to me. and, obviously, if we get a prayer at the RNC it would not be an endorsement of either party.
I really disagree, and it seems that you didn’t notice or ignored what I said about partisan events.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I really disagree, and it seems that you didn’t notice or ignored what I said about partisan events.

I read what you wrote, but if the Orthodox appear for both or multiple sides, we are definitionally not partisan.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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I read what you wrote, but if the Orthodox appear for both or multiple sides, we are definitionally not partisan.

Is there an pro-abortion Orthodox position to hold? If not, we are partisan in that regard. Is there a pro-gay marriage or pro-pedophilia Orthodox position to hold? If not, we are partisan there. Is there a pro-Marxist Orthodox position to hold? If not, we’re partisan there. Is there a pro-riot Orthodox position to hold? If not, we’re partisan in that.
Is there an Orthodox position for high taxes perhaps? If so, our tithes to the Church is weakened. Just some questions as to whether we go on playing this neutrality game or not.
 
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rusmeister

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I read what you wrote, but if the Orthodox appear for both or multiple sides, we are definitionally not partisan.
I strongly disagree. You give it away inadvertently when you say “appear FOR” (any side). The whole point of appearing for a side is that it gives an appearance of endorsement, a legitimacy that, in the extent to which the parties have fallen, where (among many other things) the Vice Presidential nominee also happens to have been the DA ordering the prosecution of reporting on the sale of baby body parts, we simply can’t afford to give.

Appearing FOR anybody means to give at least tacit support to them.
 
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rusmeister

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An inauguration is a public event. It is for all, including those who voted against. A convention is a private event, for members-only. And the objection is that it is speaking at a NON-public event. The event is NOT for the general public. In that sense, it is much like how we see church. We practice closed (religious) communion; a convention is a closed political communion. The DNC is not for non-Democrats, who may not participate at all. And so it is just like allowing a Muslim to speak at a Liturgy, or an Orthodox priest speaking at a synagogue or mosque. One could argue that the Metropolitan may speak as a private citizen, but lo, he is wearing his garbs of office, in which he doesn’t represent himself at all. The upshot is that he represents us as essentially endorsing the DNC, which I am sure at least half of us do not, and with it, their platform of baby-murder, which is probably the greatest evil one can imagine. To stand there and speak as if it can be legitimate is to pretend that they do not advocate what they do. The only legitimate prayer I can see making there would absolutely include calling upon them to repent of it.
Regardless of even that, it seems to me that what our hierarchs support must be scandal-free, which requires them to stay out partisan events.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Is there an pro-abortion Orthodox position to hold? If not, we are partisan in that regard. Is there a pro-gay marriage or pro-pedophilia Orthodox position to hold? If not, we are partisan there. Is there a pro-Marxist Orthodox position to hold? If not, we’re partisan there. Is there a pro-riot Orthodox position to hold? If not, we’re partisan in that.
Is there an Orthodox position for high taxes perhaps? If so, our tithes to the Church is weakened. Just some questions as to whether we go on playing this neutrality game or not.

I wasn't the one who said that we shouldn't attend partisan things.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I strongly disagree. You give it away inadvertently when you say “appear FOR” (any side). The whole point of appearing for a side is that it gives an appearance of endorsement, a legitimacy that, in the extent to which the parties have fallen, where (among many other things) the Vice Presidential nominee also happens to have been the DA ordering the prosecution of reporting on the sale of baby body parts, we simply can’t afford to give.

Appearing FOR anybody means to give at least tacit support to them.

again, unless you appear and pray for both sides, because then you are BY DEFINITION not being partisan.
 
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ArmyMatt

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An inauguration is a public event. It is for all, including those who voted against. A convention is a private event, for members-only. And the objection is that it is speaking at a NON-public event. The event is NOT for the general public. In that sense, it is much like how we see church. We practice closed (religious) communion; a convention is a closed political communion. The DNC is not for non-Democrats, who may not participate at all. And so it is just like allowing a Muslim to speak at a Liturgy, or an Orthodox priest speaking at a synagogue or mosque. One could argue that the Metropolitan may speak as a private citizen, but lo, he is wearing his garbs of office, in which he doesn’t represent himself at all. The upshot is that he represents us as essentially endorsing the DNC, which I am sure at least half of us do not, and with it, their platform of baby-murder, which is probably the greatest evil one can imagine. To stand there and speak as if it can be legitimate is to pretend that they do not advocate what they do. The only legitimate prayer I can see making there would absolutely include calling upon them to repent of it.
Regardless of even that, it seems to me that what our hierarchs support must be scandal-free, which requires them to stay out partisan events.

conventions are not for members only. Senator Sanders isn't a registered Democrat. Governor Zell Miller (who spoke at the RNC in 2004) wasn't a Republican.
 
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rusmeister

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again, unless you appear and pray for both sides, because then you are BY DEFINITION not being partisan.
I think that what you mean and that what you are right about, is that if you attend two opposing partisan events, then you are being fair. No argument. But at each point in time, when you speak at ANY event, you are saying that you think that event is legitimate and are supporting its conduct. You are effectively being partisan in that moment.

But a person who got up to say even a prayer at both the March for Life and the March for Women, while being “fair”, would also be somewhat mentally and morally defective. Unless the speech or prayer condemned definite obvious evils or whatever is really wrong or called for repentance of those things, and in some way attempted to speak vital truth in a spirit of love, whatever is said is taken as endorsement, whether you want it to or not. “Partisan” means that the event is meant to support and shore up the organization, in this case the Democratic Party. In that light, it is irrelevant if non-Democrats are allowed to speak. So you are technically right that non-Democrats are allowed to speak, but it is irrelevant. They are not allowed to condemn the Democratic Party. Ditto for the Republican convention.

At the moment, there are things wrong with both major political parties. I would condemn Republican evils as well, but at the moment, it is a case where, while the Republicans would put us on a path that would tear apart our nation in fifty years, the Democrats will do it in ten. They are insanely foolish to promote racial division in the name of fighting racism AND think they can hope to hold the nation together.
On that basis, I say that it is bad and unwise for our leaders to stand up at ANY partisan event, but I think it worse to stand up at a Democrat one. Either way, for the sake of avoiding division and scandal in the Church, our hierarchs should avoid all appearance of supporting evil positions and ideas, even in the desire to oppose other evil ideas.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think that what you mean and that what you are right about, is that if you attend two opposing partisan events, then you are being fair. No argument. But at each point in time, when you speak at ANY event, you are saying that you think that event is legitimate and are supporting its conduct. You are effectively being partisan in that moment.

But a person who got up to say even a prayer at both the March for Life and the March for Women, while being “fair”, would also be somewhat mentally and morally defective. Unless the speech or prayer condemned definite obvious evils or whatever is really wrong or called for repentance of those things, and in some way attempted to speak vital truth in a spirit of love, whatever is said is taken as endorsement, whether you want it to or not. “Partisan” means that the event is meant to support and shore up the organization, in this case the Democratic Party. In that light, it is irrelevant if non-Democrats are allowed to speak. So you are technically right that non-Democrats are allowed to speak, but it is irrelevant. They are not allowed to condemn the Democratic Party. Ditto for the Republican convention.

At the moment, there are things wrong with both major political parties. I would condemn Republican evils as well, but at the moment, it is a case where, while the Republicans would put us on a path that would tear apart our nation in fifty years, the Democrats will do it in ten. They are insanely foolish to promote racial division in the name of fighting racism AND think they can hope to hold the nation together.
On that basis, I say that it is bad and unwise for our leaders to stand up at ANY partisan event, but I think it worse to stand up at a Democrat one. Either way, for the sake of avoiding division and scandal in the Church, our hierarchs should avoid all appearance of supporting evil positions and ideas, even in the desire to oppose other evil ideas.

Senator Sanders isn't irrelevant, since you said that a convention is for members only. I was just saying that's false.

as far as the convention goes, while it is a partisan event, for His Eminence to be partisan or for Orthodoxy to be partisan, he would have to support Democrats or Republicans only.

a bishop isn't partisan just simply because one side's convention met first, and he prayed at that one first, because it was first.
 
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gzt

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And, to be clear, the Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese has been appearing at both parties' conventions for years to offer a benediction. If he were not to appear at the RNC this year, it would only be from a lack of an invitation and I would be very surprised and want to know what was going on. I can see the prudential argument that he shouldn't go to either but I think it would be a matter of prudential judgment which the Greek Archdiocese disagrees with.
 
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rusmeister

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Senator Sanders isn't irrelevant, since you said that a convention is for members only. I was just saying that's false.

as far as the convention goes, while it is a partisan event, for His Eminence to be partisan or for Orthodoxy to be partisan, he would have to support Democrats or Republicans only.

a bishop isn't partisan just simply because one side's convention met first, and he prayed at that one first, because it was first.
I say he gives the APPEARANCE of being partisan, whatever he might believe. He APPEARS to endorse, whatever his actual views are. That is NOT false. It matters, AND cause division. I am personally repelled by the Archbishop for these reasons. I can hold my personal reactions in abeyance, but thousands won't. The bad choice will have done its evil work.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I say he gives the APPEARANCE of being partisan, whatever he might believe. He APPEARS to endorse, whatever his actual views are. That is NOT false. It matters, AND cause division. I am personally repelled by the Archbishop for these reasons. I can hold my personal reactions in abeyance, but thousands won't. The bad choice will have done its evil work.

and, if he does what the Greek bishops have traditionally done and been at both conventions, the idea/appearance that they are being partisan ends.
 
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rusmeister

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and, if he does what the Greek bishops have traditionally done and been at both conventions, the idea/appearance that they are being partisan ends.
I respectfully disagree, and have outlined why I think that so. It may have been true in the past that the differences in partisanship did not matter so much so that a hierarch could do that and people could shrug their shoulders, because it wasn’t perceived as important and being Democrat or Republican was about relatively minor disagreements about policy, the key word being “relatively”, and otherwise citizens were able to get along and confine their disagreements to the voting booth, but I think the divisions now have escalated to the point where that is no longer the case.

It’s not about Trump or Biden. It’s about the war of fashion vs tradition, which spreads into every corner of the earth. It’s about those who have been led to believe that “everything changes” (and should change) vs those who believe that some things, such as moral standards, ought not to change. Globalist multiculturalists vs nationalists who believe their own nation and historical culture ought to be their main concern. It’s the coastal elites and modern educations who know better than the saints of the past and their ancestors vs humble people who think that their ancestors and the saints knew better than we on things that truly matter.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I respectfully disagree, and have outlined why I think that so. It may have been true in the past that the differences in partisanship did not matter so much so that a hierarch could do that and people could shrug their shoulders, because it wasn’t perceived as important and being Democrat or Republican was about relatively minor disagreements about policy, the key word being “relatively”, and otherwise citizens were able to get along and confine their disagreements to the voting booth, but I think the divisions now have escalated to the point where that is no longer the case.

It’s not about Trump or Biden. It’s about the war of fashion vs tradition, which spreads into every corner of the earth. It’s about those who have been led to believe that “everything changes” (and should change) vs those who believe that some things, such as moral standards, ought not to change. Globalist multiculturalists vs nationalists who believe their own nation and historical culture ought to be their main concern. It’s the coastal elites and modern educations who know better than the saints of the past and their ancestors vs humble people who think that their ancestors and the saints knew better than we on things that truly matter.

I agree with your issues completely, but that has nothing to do with whether or not His Eminence is being partisan if he appears at the RNC as well. by definition, that isn't being partisan.
 
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tapi

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It is simply mind boggling how so many people here seem to honestly consider Trump and the Repuplican party=good, Christian; and the Democrats=Bad, Evil.

Having even lived in the states for a bit... it seems... Insane :D ...but.. a bit too normal. Truly, I do not think anywhere else in the world the division within a country is as problematic and as huge a rift as in the USA right now.

Nevertheless, I would hope for a little bit better in an Orthodox context :| But it is what is....
 
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rusmeister

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I agree with your issues completely, but that has nothing to do with whether or not His Eminence is being partisan if he appears at the RNC as well. by definition, that isn't being partisan.
Perhaps the only point of clarification, if any still needs to be made, is that, as I think I already said, you are right that His Eminence is not being partisan in his own intention, but is effectively partisan by putting an effective stamp of approval on a partisan event.The word "partisan" is related to the word "party"; they come from the same root and source. It is the event, not a hierarch's intention, that matters here.
 
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