Is scripture alone sufficient?

Lost4words · Aug 20, 2020

pescador said:
Hand out leaflets in approx. 25 AD? Really?

dqhall · Aug 20, 2020

pescador said:
A couple of verses is NOT the Bible. It is totally sufficient in its entirety.

In case you're not aware, there was a man named Jesus Christ who took the punishment for sins committed under OT law, so it no longer applies to Christians.

Welcome to the 21st Century!

Jesus is sufficient. Jesus’ work resulted in the baptism of Holy Spirit.

A Biblical law demanding the sacrifice of animals for the remission of sins is totally insufficient even though it is in the Bible.

pescador · Aug 20, 2020

b4jesustoday said:
I thought it was the very word of God, each and every word, not scripture scholars, not context, not private judgment!

What do you mean by "it"? (not joking)

The English Bibles that we have today are the best that scholars and translators have been able to come up with because...

There is no perfect Bible because the "books" are translations from tablets and scrolls, most of which are incomplete, from ancient languages.

So there is no "each and every word".

Sorry, but that's the truth!

pescador · Aug 20, 2020

dqhall said:
Jesus is sufficient. Jesus’ work resulted in the baptism of Holy Spirit.

A Biblical law demanding the sacrifice of animals for the remission of sins is totally insufficient even though it is in the Bible.

First you write about stoning someone to death and now you're writing about the Biblical law demanding the sacrifice of animals for the remission of sins and Jesus' sacrifice.

The thread is about "is Scripture alone sufficient".

dqhall · Aug 20, 2020

pescador said:
First you write about stoning someone to death and now you're writing about the Biblical law demanding the sacrifice of animals for the remission of sins and Jesus' sacrifice.

The thread is about "is Scripture alone sufficient".

Have you never read the first five books of the Bible? Stoning is required. Animal sacrifice is required. What is scripture?

How can scripture alone be sufficient, if one reads it and does not find God. How can people write about the Bible being perfect, but not read what is on its pages? They read and then they forget.

If the Bible is not scripture, what is? Paul must have found some good writings somewhere. I fear some of them were lost.

pescador · Aug 21, 2020

dqhall said:
Have you never read the first five books of the Bible? Stoning is required. Animal sacrifice is required. What is scripture?

How can scripture alone be sufficient, if one reads it and does not find God. How can people write about the Bible being perfect, but not read what is on its pages? They read and then they forget.

If the Bible is not scripture, what is? Paul must have found some good writings somewhere. I fear some of them were lost.

Have you not read the remaining 61 books of the Bible, particularly the New Testament? Stoning, animal sacrifice, and other barbaric practices were required under the Old Covenant but they are no longer in effect.

The rest of your post makes no sense. The Bible is Scripture, but it's useless if you don't know how to read and interpret it. How can you write about the Bible being perfect, but not read what is on its pages and forget what it means?

dqhall · Aug 21, 2020

pescador said:
Have you not read the remaining 61 books of the Bible, particularly the New Testament? Stoning, animal sacrifice, and other barbaric practices were required under the Old Covenant but they are no longer in effect.

The rest of your post makes no sense. The Bible is Scripture, but it's useless if you don't know how to read and interpret it. How can you write about the Bible being perfect, but not read what is on its pages and forget what it means?

Is the law against murder no longer in effect? Jesus warned not only is adultery forbidden, but lust is also an offense. The Old Testament has laws against murder and adultery. Jesus does not declare these activities are legal. He recommended repentance and forgiveness instead of execution. In this way the death sentences required by laws of Moses are less likely to. happen.

Some people in CF have argued the Bible is inerrant. I merely set my arguments against that position. I would argue God alone is sufficient. People reading the wrong parts of the Bible might easily go astray.

pescador · Aug 21, 2020

dqhall said:
Is the law against murder no longer in effect? Jesus warned not only is adultery forbidden, but lust is also an offense. The Old Testament has laws against murder and adultery. Jesus does not declare these activities are legal. He recommended repentance and forgiveness instead of execution. In this way the death sentences required by laws of Moses are less likely to. happen.

Some people in CF have argued the Bible is inerrant. I merely set my arguments against that position. I would argue God alone is sufficient. People reading the wrong parts of the Bible might easily go astray.

That is correct: the law against murder is no longer in effect. In fact, the entire Old Covenant is no longer in effect, as the requirements of the law have all been done away with if one is under the New Covenant.

It saddens me that you have no understanding of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant system of laws and other requirements, along with its system of sacrifices as payments for sin, has been superseded. The New Covenant has replaced it entirely.

Jesus did not recommend repentance and forgiveness instead of execution. He paid the price for all sin -- he was executed.

Finally, the Bible, being the Word of God, is inerrant. If people misinterpret it that is their fault; it's not the fault of what's been written.

solid_core · Aug 21, 2020

Nobody actually asked "sufficient to what"?

To get all the needed knowledge of salvation? Of course, its all there.

To get the real faith? No, you need the Holy Spirit for that.

To know how to program in C++? No, you need some documentation for that.

Is the question in regard the reformation context - corrupted papal church without gospel vs reformers's struggle to get the real Christianity? Yes, the Bible was what made the whole revival to be possible.

redleghunter · Aug 21, 2020

b4jesustoday said:
Acts 8

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Good day. Please see excerpt below which may drive the conversation with a lot more context. Then please open the link for the full context. Sola Scriptura is a Reformation term of the 5 Solas.

Of course, like many core Christian convictions, the doctrine of sola Scriptura has often been misunderstood and misapplied. Unfortunately, some have used sola Scriptura as a justification for a “me, God, and the Bible” type of individualism, where the church bears no real authority and the history of the church is not considered when interpreting and applying Scripture. Thus, many churches today are almost ahistorical—cut off entirely from the rich traditions, creeds, and confessions of the church. They misunderstand sola Scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola Scriptura it is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual.

The Reformers would not have recognized such a distortion as their doctrine of sola Scriptura. On the contrary, they were quite keen to rely on the church fathers, church councils, and the creeds and confessions of the church. Such historical rootedness was viewed not only as a means for maintaining orthodoxy but also as a means for maintaining humility. Contrary to popular perceptions, the Reformers did not view themselves as coming up with something new. Rather, they understood themselves to be recovering something very old—something that the church had originally believed but later twisted and distorted. The Reformers were not innovators but were excavators.

Understanding Sola Scriptura

St_Worm2 · Aug 24, 2020

solid_core said:
Nobody actually asked "sufficient to what"?

To get all the needed knowledge of salvation? Of course, its all there.

To get the real faith? No, you need the Holy Spirit for that.

To know how to program in C++? No, you need some documentation for that.

Is the question in regard the reformation context - corrupted papal church without gospel vs reformers's struggle to get the real Christianity? Yes, the Bible was what made the whole revival to be possible.

Hello @solid_core, thanks for bringing these points up :oldthumbsup:

I tried making similar points earlier in this thread (that the OP author needed to define what "sola Scriptura" means to him, specifically, and what being "sufficient" means to him as well), but no definitions and/or statements from him have been made in that regard, so far.

Fortunately, @redleghunter has helped us by giving us a description of the Reformers' definition, but that is not how the OP author (be4jesustoday) appears to be defining sola Scriptura (yet the answer to his Title question turns on that knowledge).

God bless you!

--David

Lukaris · Aug 24, 2020

I think we need a Biblical framework of faith as an approach in reading the Bible. The Lord Himself puts the message of the books of the law & prophets in His 2 great commandments. For ex. see Matthew 22:36-40 and Matthew 7:12 ( & proceed to read Matthew 7:1-12 to get the full picture for the “golden rule.” The ultimate message of the Lord is given by Him in Luke 24:44-49 ( in this case specifically, the Lord added the Psalms to the framework).

This is actually a wonderful framework ( since it is of God for our salvation) but how do we reconcile harsh accounts ( like Joshua 6:16-27 for ex.). I do not know but the Gospel surely has voided such action for almost 2,000 years ( see Luke 9:51-56).

Surely the basic framework of keeping the Lord’s commandments by direct revelation ( Deuteronomy 5, Deuteronomy 6 etc.) or natural ( God’s law to the gentile ( for ex. Ezekiel 18:4-9, Psalms 15 etc.) is consistent. What the preacher said in Ecclesiastes 12:9-14, the Lord affirms ( Matthew 19:16-19) echoed by St. Paul ( Romans 13:8-10).

The basic old moral law ( for ex. Leviticus 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20 ) is affirmed by the Lord ( for ex. Matthew 15:15-20 etc.) echoed by St. Paul ( Romans 1 etc.). Despite often historical shortcomings, human authority on capital punishment seems largely prohibited when reading the sermon on the mount ( Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7 etc.) but the moral law remains.

The believer needs a basic, Biblical understanding of God as found in the creeds ( for ex. The “Apostles”
Apostles' Creed - Wikipedia

Most of the ancient Christians did not have an established Bible, could not read, but needed a Biblically based faith like that found in the Didache ( ca 100 AD)
Didache

Note the centrality of the commandments emphasized in
the ancient document as also in the New Testament ( John 14:15-18, 1 John 2 etc.).

Daisy Rivas · Sep 4, 2020

b4jesustoday said:
Acts 8

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Hello to add to the fact the the scripture alone is sufficient, it also goes with proper understanding and knowing the main contents how within the bible. If we take a look at the time of the first coming, we saw the pharisees and teachers of the law back then memorized scripture but yet still didn't come to the one whom God was with which was Jesus Christ. This was because they didn't have the understanding to what they only memorized. Yes, anyone can read the bible if they know how to read, but what's more difficult is that there is a lack of understanding, which is why we have tons of different commentary looking at the same verses. (Jn. 5:39, Mt. 23:15, Jn. 14:6, 2 Tim.3:16)

pescador · Sep 4, 2020

Daisy Rivas said:
Hello to add to the fact the the scripture alone is sufficient, it also goes with proper understanding and knowing the main contents how within the bible. If we take a look at the time of the first coming, we saw the pharisees and teachers of the law back then memorized scripture but yet still didn't come to the one whom God was with which was Jesus Christ. This was because they didn't have the understanding to what they only memorized. Yes, anyone can read the bible if they know how to read, but what's more difficult is that there is a lack of understanding, which is why we have tons of different commentary looking at the same verses. (Jn. 5:39, Mt. 23:15, Jn. 14:6, 2 Tim.3:16)

We have tons of different commentary [sic] looking at the same verses because the "original" manuscripts, the source of every translation, are in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. There is no direct one-to-one word translation from those languages into English (or any other language.)

1watchman · Sep 5, 2020

b4jesustoday said:
I thought it was the very word of God, each and every word, not scripture scholars, not context, not private judgment!

The Old Testament was about creation, God's history for man, His covenant with Israel and how to worship Him as Creator-God; then His promise of a Messiah by the Prophets. The OT is as shown as a foretelling of the grace of God to mankind, and was the telling of hope for the world to come by His "...beloved Son" --the Lord Jesus. Israel rejected him when He came in preference for their religious ways, (as the New Testament shows) and the judgment of God has and is falling on them presently. That nation will be restored in the future times (note Revelation) as promised, but today the door is open to Gentiles too through Jesus Christ, and "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" (John 3:16). Both Israelites and Gentiles as all mankind (including man's various other religions) must come on the same ground. Christianity is about Christ not religious ideas of man (note John 14).

Daniel Marsh · Sep 10, 2020

Sabertooth said:
The Pharisees of Jesus' time already had "Scripture alone."

Oral Tradition

Matthew 15:3
He answered them, “Why do you break the commandment of God because of your traditions?

Mark 7:3
(The Pharisees, like all other Jewish people, don’t eat unless they have properly washed their hands. They follow the traditions of their ancestors.

John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, “The man who did this is not from God because he doesn’t follow the traditions for the day of rest—a holy day.” Other Pharisees asked, “How can a man who is a sinner perform miracles like these?” So the Pharisees were divided in their opinions.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 10, 2020

Lost4words said:
Scripture alone has given birth to 1,000s of denominations. Each with their own unique take on the Word of God.

Jesus sent out His Apostles to preach and teach the word of God.

He did not hand out leaflets of scripture for people to 'go it alone!'

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 10, 2020

Danthemailman said:
The Bible (which is God’s Word) is good enough. You just need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. You are quoting Scripture from the Old Testament under the old covenant that applied to Israel under the law. The Church/the body of Christ is not under the old covenant.

2 Timothy 2:15
Easy-to-Read Version

15 Do your best to be the kind of person God will accept, and give yourself to him. Be a worker who has no reason to be ashamed of his work, one who applies the true teaching in the right way.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 10, 2020

eleos1954 said:
YES!

Jesus taught from the OT which existed before HE established HIS church through the apostles.

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Nehemiah 9:20

“You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them,
Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth,
And You gave them water for their thirst.

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Matthew 4:4

But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

2 Timothy

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

John 17:17

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Deuteronomy 4:2

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Psalm 119:160

The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Psalm 119:105

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

2 Timothy 2:15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Luke 11:28

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

We (believers) are all to be disciples of Christ. All believers are His church.

John 8:31-32

So Jesus said to the Jews (not just the apostles) who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Jesus died around 30 CE. It would be 14 to 19 years before the first book of the NT was written. Thus Apostles Teaching before that was Oral. The first Gospel was written about 20 to 30 years after Jesus died and rose. The Bible was not dug up out of a hill complete.

It was around 1450 the printing press was useable. https://www.history.com/topics/inve...tenberg,use commercially: The Gutenberg press.

New Testament ( when were each book written? )

James: AD 44-49
Galatians: AD 49-50
Mark: AD 50-60
Matthew: AD 50-60
1 Thessalonians: AD 51
2 Thessalonians: AD 51-52
1 Corinthians: AD 55
2 Corinthians: AD 55-56
Romans: AD 56
Luke: AD 60-61
Ephesians: AD 60-62
Philippians: AD 60-62
Philemon: AD 60-62
Colossians: AD 60-62
Acts: AD 62
1 Timothy: AD 62-64
Titus: AD 62-64
1 Peter: AD 64-65
2 Timothy: AD 66-67
2 Peter: AD 67-68
Hebrews: AD 67-69
Jude: AD 68-70
John: AD 80-90
1 John: AD 90-95
2 John: AD 90-95
3 John: AD 90-95
Revelation: AD 94-96
When Was Each Book of the Bible Written? - Bible Gateway Blog
Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament - Bible Study Tools

Daniel Marsh · Sep 10, 2020

dqhall said:
Jesus is sufficient. Jesus’ work resulted in the baptism of Holy Spirit.

A Biblical law demanding the sacrifice of animals for the remission of sins is totally insufficient even though it is in the Bible.

You are correct, you can not separate the five Solas.

Is scripture alone sufficient?

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