Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

jgr said:

There's that "Jewish nation" again.

But still no explanation as to how to identify Jews.

How do you know it's a Jewish nation if you can't identify Jews?

Here are the possibilities again for identifying Jews:

1. By DNA
2. By religion
3. By culture
4. By domicile
5. By something else

Any genuine dispensationalist should know the answer.

Click to expand...

jgr,

1. Sorry, but I had been occupied with a couple of others and I don’t have quite as much time as they to post.

2. Jews have mixed with races before in their history more than once.
They have been oppressed by 6 nations in the past Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

3.

jgr said:

There's that "Jewish nation" again.

But still no explanation as to how to identify Jews.

How do you know it's a Jewish nation if you can't identify Jews?

Here are the possibilities again for identifying Jews:

1. By DNA
2. By religion
3. By culture
4. By domicile
5. By something else

Any genuine dispensationalist should know the answer.

Click to expand...

jgr,

Sorry, I didn’t know that posted cause I wasn’t done. My phone is doing crazy things or else I pushed a wrong button.
I apologize for not getting back with you sooner. I was occupied with a couple of others at the same time.
I would never knowingly or purposely give a partial answer without some understanding about answering your questions.

2. With that said, I will give a short answer cause I’m really busy.

3. God didn’t really approve of Abraham’s union with Hagar.
He didn’t want Israel the nation mixing with heathen nation’s.
He didn’t want clean and unclean to mix etc.

5. Israel had a history of the sin of mixing, but it was due to idolatry, influences of paganism that could come back to bite them on the backside such as in Samson’s case with Delilah.
It really wasn’t about multi racial ethnicity.
In Deuteronomy 21 I believe is where it gives exceptions for men of war who would choose Canaanite woman. They were not to treat them like a slave but there wife. They had laws concerning proselytizing so they would become a Jew.
The New Testament is all about not being unequally yoked. Believers should be yoked together with other believers not unbelievers.
If a believer is with an unbeliever on marriage they should be an example to try to win them to Christ. If they want to leave then you can let them go I believe.
Anyway, the point is God wants to win hearts but he doesn’t want the spiritual life and in this case the nation to be destroyed by idolatry and things that would take them down spiritually etc. It’s not really about the color of their skin,

6. Despite Israel l’s bad history throughout their history God has always preserved them and always will.

7. They have always had a believing remnant and they will in the last days Revelation 12:17.

8. There is no scriptural proof that the church age takes the place of Israel in their eternal gifts and callings 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; Romans 11:29 etc.

9. God gave the promise to his people who are the apple of his eye forever but they have to all be saved which will happen in the end Romans 11:25-29.
They are backslidden and will come to God at the end of the tribulation at second coming Zechariah 14.

10 Elijah will come back before the great and dreadful day Malachi 4:5.
Jews believe he will help the Jewish nation with their specific lineage.
That may be part of his job when Jesus Elijah shall surely come first and restore all things as Jesus said in Luke . Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

He didn’t want Israel the nation mixing with heathen nation’s.
He didn’t want clean and unclean to mix etc

Click to expand...

Hasn't JGR shared these passages with you that refute that? God was warning against the idolatry of other nations.....but not specifically the people. It's more about the law of influence. The Israelite assembly included foreigners from beginning.



Jesus repeated that here:

jerry kelso said:

Israel had a history of the sin of mixing, but it was due to idolatry, influences of paganism that could come back to bite them on the backside such as in Samson’s case with Delilah.

It really wasn’t about multi racial ethnicity

Click to expand...

Agreed - so how can you identify Israel today (in your belief)?

Can you choose one of these options JGR offered? I presume you're in agreement that #1 can be scratched off the list.....correct?

1. By DNA
2. By religion
3. By culture
4. By domicile
5. By something else

sovereigngrace said:

Ok then. Quote and exegete your strongest Scripture that proves Pretrib.

Click to expand...

sovereign grace,

1. I already have,

2. You believe in the post trib rapture but you cannot show the rapture of
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 in Revelation alone without spiritualizing passages or going to another book of the Bible.
I can do both.
You are welcome to try. Please it doesn’t have to be a whole dissertation. Thank you. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. I already have,

2. You believe in the post trib rapture but you cannot show the rapture of
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 in Revelation alone without spiritualizing passages or going to another book of the Bible.
I can do both.
You are welcome to try. Please it doesn’t have to be a whole dissertation. Thank you. Jerry kelso

Click to expand...

Quote and exegete your strongest Scripture that proves Pretrib.

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. Sorry, but I had been occupied with a couple of others and I don’t have quite as much time as they to post.

2. Jews have mixed with races before in their history more than once.
They have been oppressed by 6 nations in the past Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

3.


jgr,

Sorry, I didn’t know that posted cause I wasn’t done. My phone is doing crazy things or else I pushed a wrong button.
I apologize for not getting back with you sooner. I was occupied with a couple of others at the same time.
I would never knowingly or purposely give a partial answer without some understanding about answering your questions.

2. With that said, I will give a short answer cause I’m really busy.

3. God didn’t really approve of Abraham’s union with Hagar.
He didn’t want Israel the nation mixing with heathen nation’s.
He didn’t want clean and unclean to mix etc.

5. Israel had a history of the sin of mixing, but it was due to idolatry, influences of paganism that could come back to bite them on the backside such as in Samson’s case with Delilah.
It really wasn’t about multi racial ethnicity.
In Deuteronomy 21 I believe is where it gives exceptions for men of war who would choose Canaanite woman. They were not to treat them like a slave but there wife. They had laws concerning proselytizing so they would become a Jew.
The New Testament is all about not being unequally yoked. Believers should be yoked together with other believers not unbelievers.
If a believer is with an unbeliever on marriage they should be an example to try to win them to Christ. If they want to leave then you can let them go I believe.
Anyway, the point is God wants to win hearts but he doesn’t want the spiritual life and in this case the nation to be destroyed by idolatry and things that would take them down spiritually etc. It’s not really about the color of their skin,

6. Despite Israel l’s bad history throughout their history God has always preserved them and always will.

7. They have always had a believing remnant and they will in the last days Revelation 12:17.

8. There is no scriptural proof that the church age takes the place of Israel in their eternal gifts and callings 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16; Romans 11:29 etc.

9. God gave the promise to his people who are the apple of his eye forever but they have to all be saved which will happen in the end Romans 11:25-29.
They are backslidden and will come to God at the end of the tribulation at second coming Zechariah 14.

10 Elijah will come back before the great and dreadful day Malachi 4:5.
Jews believe he will help the Jewish nation with their specific lineage.
That may be part of his job when Jesus Elijah shall surely come first and restore all things as Jesus said in Luke . Jerry kelso

Click to expand...

jerry,

No problem with the delay.

So you believe that a Jew is identified by DNA, and that anyone with Jewish DNA is recognized by God as the "apple of His eye".

That is what I distilled from your reply.

Did you read post 221 in which Jews acknowledge and applaud the fact that every person on earth possesses Jewish DNA?

It has nothing to do with a "spiritual Jew theory", to which no Jew subscribes.

Rather, it is pure science -- mathematics and genetics.

But of course, if everyone possesses Jewish DNA, then how does God distinguish a Jew who is the apple of His eye, from one who is not?

So then you would exclude DNA as the identifier?

sovereigngrace said:

Quote and exegete your strongest Scripture that proves Pretrib.

Click to expand...

sovereign grace,

I am busy working right now.
Can you go ahead and try to prove your position just in the book of Revelation? Yes or No? Jerrykelso

jgr said:

There's that "Jewish nation" again.

But still no explanation as to how to identify Jews.

How do you know it's a Jewish nation if you can't identify Jews?

Here are the possibilities again for identifying Jews:

1. By DNA
2. By religion
3. By culture
4. By domicile
5. By something else

Any genuine dispensationalist should know the answer.

Click to expand...

You left out God. Relying on humans to figure out the Truth of God's Word, is like having a kindergartner as President of a nation. Viewing God's Word as something limited to the past is the mistake of theology. Theology interjects too many human opinions. They avoid God actually coming to earth on the throne, by viewing the event as a suggestion of 1st century "dreamers". Theology does not take God seriously. Some do not take any of God's future plans seriously.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

I am busy working right now.
Can you go ahead and try to prove your position just in the book of Revelation? Yes or No? Jerrykelso

Click to expand...

Understand!

Revelation 1 – An introduction or foreword to the whole book outlining John receiving a supernatural revelation from God whilst on the Isle of Patmos about seven actual churches in Asia

Revelation 2-3 – What that supernatural revelation about these Churches was in the form of seven specific letters. They were seven literal letters to seven literal churches. Nowhere in their description does it remotely suggest that they are seven church ages. They are to be understood in the same way that Corinthians or Galatians are. They were written initially to the early church in question, although, the Holy Spirit intended the truths contained within the Epistles to carry a wider relevance to the Church – period. Most likely, you will find these seven type of churches in every age, and probably, in every nation in that age.

Revelation 4-5 – John is caught up in the Spirit into heaven and receives a remarkable supernatural insight into the spiritual realm.

Revelation 6-22:5 – What that supernatural heavenly revelation was. This is clearly the prophetic aspect to the book. In viewing such, John sees God’s providential dealing with mankind. The revelation that John receives relates not only to God’s intimate preserving dealings with His people but also to His fierce dealings with the wicked. The revelation evidently relates to the period between Christ’s two Advents.

Revelation 22:6-20 – An epilogue or a conclusion relating to the content of the whole book.

CYCLE 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

CYCLE 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

CYCLE 4 (Ch 12-14)

The conflict between kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

CYCLE 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

CYCLE 6

Babylon (Ch 17-19)

CYCLE 7

The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).

Timtofly said:

You left out God. Relying on humans to figure out the Truth of God's Word, is like having a kindergartner as President of a nation. Viewing God's Word as something limited to the past is the mistake of theology. Theology interjects too many human opinions. They avoid God actually coming to earth on the throne, by viewing the event as a suggestion of 1st century "dreamers". Theology does not take God seriously. Some do not take any of God's future plans seriously.

Click to expand...

Does God believe Jews are His Chosen People?

If so, which of the possibilities I listed does God use to identify Jews?

jgr said:

jerry,

No problem with the delay.

So you believe that a Jew is identified by DNA, and that anyone with Jewish DNA is recognized by God as the "apple of His eye".

That is what I distilled from your reply.

Did you read post 221 in which Jews acknowledge and applaud the fact that every person on earth possesses Jewish DNA?

It has nothing to do with a "spiritual Jew theory", to which no Jew subscribes.

Rather, it is pure science -- mathematics and genetics.

But of course, if everyone possesses Jewish DNA, then how does God distinguish a Jew who is the apple of His eye, from one who is not?

So then you would exclude DNA as the identifier?

Click to expand...

jgr,
I get off at 3:30 P.M. I’ll listen to it after work on the way home.
What is your purpose for not being DNA if not the spiritual Jew theory? Biblical speaking. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Click to expand...

Yes, on the Cross, when Christ claimed it was finished, Abraham was allowed to come forth in a bodily resurrection. 3 days later Abraham entered that heavenly kingdom, Paradise. All those with incorruptible bodies in Paradise are symbolized as souls under the alter. Jesus presented the Atonement on the alter, in the temple of God. The alter and temple of God is Paradise where the tree of life is. Revelation 2:7

7 Let him that hath an ear hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches: To him that overcometh, will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.

All of the OT and NT dead in Christ are looking for that spiritual city Paradise of God where the tree of life is. That is the spiritual covenant God had with all of Adam's descendants. That is the spiritual kingdom. The Atonement on the Cross opened wide the doors of that spiritual kingdom. All in Christ, even those who died yesterday are in that heavenly city, Paradise. They are awaiting their glorified bodies when the church is presented as a complete body.

But you reject any Scripture that claims that truth. You fail to realize that Hebrews 11 is a reality. You claim it is still a future event. It is BOTH!! The spiritual kingdom is growing. It is under the alter. It is not lying in the ground sleeping. Show me one verse or as many as you can that shows the church is dead and in the ground. How does a quickening Spirit create a dead church just lying in the dust for 5990 years? How is a dead church just lying in dust for 1990 years?

That is not the physical covenant God gave to Moses and a physical inheritance among the Nations.

Nations are not part of the spiritual kingdom. God also has a physical covenant and a physical kingdom. The one amil and post mill refuse to acknowledge. They claim God has no such kingdom, and yet God sent Moses to do just that. Moses disobeyed God, and lost that privilege. But the covenant remains with future house of Jacob, humans, regardless of all the denial of current theological opinions of carnal sinful humans. Yes carnal sinful humans can be redeemed into the spiritual kingdom known as the church. That is a totally separate covenant. Saying a physical covenant does not exist is remaining in physical Egypt and worldly sinful babylon. Trying to foist Babylon into God’s physical kingdom is denying God’s sovereignty, or just being plain ignorant of God's Word. Do you deny that God has a physical covenant? Keras denies the spiritual covenant and kingdom. Yet he follows God's Word closer than those who deny a living spiritual kingdom and a physical kingdom. Why is current physical existence more important to amil than the promises God has given to all? The spiritual kingdom is currently alive in Paradise, not dead. There will be a future physical kingdom that will be free of the punishment of sin and evil. Amil quote the verses yet deny the power of God's Word. Amil's private interpretation is the great apostasy of this generation. It denies a living spiritual kingdom in heaven right now. It denies God a future physical kingdom he promised to Moses and the 12 tribes of Jacob. It denies a restoration of the Nations. Show me one verse that claims Nations in sin keep evolving out of a sinful nature. It is Satan who comes into God’s church and evolves it away from righteousness into the corrupt sin nature of the flesh.

jerry kelso said:

jgr,
I get off at 3:30 P.M. I’ll listen to it after work on the way home.
What is your purpose for not being DNA if not the spiritual Jew theory? Biblical speaking. Jerry kelso

Click to expand...

jerry,

I don't really understand your question.

Do you think DNA is the identifier?

jgr said:

Does God believe Jews are His Chosen People?

If so, which of the possibilities I listed does God use to identify Jews?

Click to expand...

None of the one's you listed. Revelation 7 says angels know. Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice." The sheep of Israel during the Trumpets (calling the nation of Israel to battle) will know. We right now at this moment can never know. It was not given to us to know. It will be revealed after the 6th seal, to those who need to know.

Timtofly said:

None of the one's you listed. Revelation 7 says angels know. Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice." The sheep of Israel during the Trumpets (calling the nation of Israel to battle) will know. We right now at this moment can never know. It was not given to us to know. It will be revealed after the 6th seal, to those who need to know.

Click to expand...

If "it was not given to us to know", then how can dispensationalists claim to know anything about the nation of Israel?

Timtofly said:

None of the one's you listed. Revelation 7 says angels know. Jesus says, "my sheep hear my voice." The sheep of Israel during the Trumpets (calling the nation of Israel to battle) will know. We right now at this moment can never know. It was not given to us to know. It will be revealed after the 6th seal, to those who need to know.

Click to expand...

Don't dispensationalists claim to know that Jews are God's chosen people?

Don't dispensationalists claim to know that Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy?

If "it was not given to us to know", how can dispensationalists know what they claim to know?

jgr said:

If "it was not given to us to know", then how can dispensationalists claim to know anything about the nation of Israel?

Click to expand...

How can any theology make claims? You will have to ask a dispensationalist. Is it mere coincidence that a modern nation is currently being chiseled out of an area hostile to a Hebrew presence?

jgr said:

jerry,

I don't really understand your question.

Do you think DNA is the identifier?

Click to expand...

DNA is only to the physical Jewish nation because God promised them the eternal physical KoH reign on earth forever.
They will not receive the KoH until they are all saved as a nation.
There will be Jewish DNA in the end. There are a few possibilities but let me read the articles you have.
What does it mean to you if DNA is an identifier? Jerrykelso

Timtofly said:

How can any theology make claims? You will have to ask a dispensationalist. Is it mere coincidence that a modern nation is currently being chiseled out of an area hostile to a Hebrew presence?

Click to expand...

"It was not given to us to know".

Therefore, what would you ask a dispensationalist who doesn't know?