Covenant and New Covenant theology

claninja · Aug 20, 2020

Studyman said:
You were speaking of the New Covenant VS. the Old Covenant. If we are not aligned with the Christ of the Bible where HIS New Covenant is concerned, how can we know what the "Root" is or why it's Holy?

As I see it, the Root was Holy in the very beginning and it was still Holy in Jesus' time, it was still Holy in Paul's time even years after Jesus ascended, and it is still Holy today as well.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

If Jesus, (Firstfruit) by walking in the "Way of the Lord" as HE described before becoming a man, was considered Holy, then the "way of the Lord" (Root) HE walked in is also Holy. So then the Branches which "walk even as He walked" (Caleb, Daniel, Elisha, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, etc.) are also Holy. But if some of the Branches didn't believe in the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in, and were broken off because of their unbelief, and the Gentile replaced them by following the "Way of the Lord" (grafted in among them) and walked "even as HE walked" (partakest of the Root)

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

The Root is what is Holy. Anyone "grafted" into it, is considered Holy as well.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Same Root)

24 For if thou (Gentile) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So according to Paul there is only ONE Holy Root for both Jews and Gentiles. Rehab shows this was true in the Law and Prophets, and Acts 15 shows this was true in the New Testament when Peter turned the Gentiles away from religious men, and directly to the Law of Moses, as Jesus also instructed him in Matt. 23: 1,2.

no disagreement here

Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

claninja said:
Considering these verses don't record the exact words that the disciples preached when they went out proclaiming the gospel and that the kingdom was at hand, this is not proof that the disciples did not preach what is also found in 1 corinthians 15:1-4, during these events.

I disagree. Even demons believe Jesus is the son of God.

Matthew 8:28-29 He was met by two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Therefore, I would argue believing that Jesus is the son of God encompasses more than just believing His identity as the son of God.

That simply not true. Peter no where mentions that Israel does not have to believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins in these verses. No where does peter mention their sin will only be forgiven in the future at the 2nd advent in these verses.

Acts 3:19-23 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you. Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.f Everyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from among his people.g’

If your willing to understand that believing Jesus is the son of God entails believing in Jesus' deeds, his ministry, his good news, his death, his resurrection, his ascension to the right hand, his sending of the spirit, and his fulfillment of scripture, which all resulted in the forgiveness of sin and our reconciliation back to God, whether you are jew or gree, you'll be one step closer to seeing their is only one gospel.

I agree Israel needed to believe Jesus is the son of God, just as we all do. But what does it mean for us to believe Jesus is the son of God?

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Furthermore, Peter rebuked Jesus elsewhere for telling them he had to die.

Do you seriously want to insist that the gospel they were preaching in Luke 9:6 will include 1 Cor 15:1-4? You mean you can preach something you neither accept nor understand?

For your 2nd question, I don't know which bible translation you are using there but like what I said to another, stick to KJV, it will make it clearer

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

To be saved, your sins must be blotted out agree? In vs 19, Peter told Israel that their sins "may be" blotted out WHEN the times of refreshing SHALL COME. The words in caps tell you that their salvation is a future event, when Jesus returns for them, in vs 20.

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
To be saved, your sins must be blotted out agree? In vs 19, Peter told Israel that their sins "may be" blotted out WHEN the times of refreshing SHALL COME. The words in caps tell you that their salvation is a future event, when Jesus returns for them, in vs 20.

Are you trying to say the 3,000 who repented on the Day of Pentecost died without having their sins forgiven?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

........................................................................

Acts 3:19

(CJB) "Therefore, repent and turn to God, so that your sins may be erased;

(ESV) Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

(Geneva) Amend your liues therefore, and turne, that your sinnes may be put away, whe the time of refreshing shal come from the presence of the Lord.

(Greek NT TR) μετανοησατε ουν και επιστρεψατε εις το εξαλειφθηναι υμων τας αμαρτιας οπως αν ελθωσιν καιροι αναψυξεως απο προσωπου του κυριου

(GW) So change the way you think and act, and turn to God to have your sins removed.

(KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

(KJV+) RepentG3340 ye therefore,G3767 andG2532 be converted,G1994 that yourG5216 sinsG266 may be blotted out,G1813 whenG3704 the timesG2540 of refreshingG403 shall comeG2064 G302 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord;G2962

(NKJV) Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

(NLT) Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

(YLT) reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

.

claninja · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
Peter rebuked Jesus when Jesus told him about the death and resurrection. Do you seriously want to insist that the gospel they were preaching in Luke 9:6 will include that?

Yes, the kingdom involves the death of the son (matthew 21: parable of wicked tenants)

Guojing said:
you mean they can preach something they neither accept nor understand?

Yes. I would argue that they did not fully understand what the gospel of the Kingdom was, but they were to preach that its at hand as instructed.

Guojing said:
In vs 19, Peter told Israel that their sins "may be" blotted out WHEN the times of refreshing SHALL COME.

Incorrect.

Acts 3:19a Repent ye therefore, and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins,

1.) "may be blotted out" is an aorist infinitive passive. Infinitive verbs indicate the goal or outcome of the controlling verb, which is "repent" and "turn again. Therefore, when they repent and turn back to God, their sins are blotted out.

Acts 3:20b 1.) when (so that) the times of refreshing 2.) may come from the presence of the Lord

1.) "when" is the greek word 'hopos'. It is an adverb that can also be used as a conjunction that helps to indicate when an intended goal is to be reached. It is more often translated as "so that". Therefore, they are to repent and turn to the Lord for the blotting of their sins, SO THAT they may experience times of refreshing.

2.) "may come" is an aorist subjunctive active, and is therefore dependent on the previous clause of the audience turning and repenting to have their sins blotted out.

From helps word studies:
3704 hópōs (an adverb that is also used as a conjunction – derived from ho, "which" and 4459 /pṓs, "how, in what way," J. Thayer) – that, focusing on the necessary measures (factors, desires) that are required for the intended goal to be reached.

3704 /hópōs ("so that") is stronger than simple "that," because it emphasizes the method (qualities, prerequisites) involved to accomplish the objective (purpose) at hand.

Thus, based on the grammar, the sins are not blotted out when times of refreshing come. The sins are blotted out when they turn and repent SO THAT times of refreshing may come.

Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

claninja said:
Yes, the kingdom involves the death of the son (matthew 21: parable of wicked tenants)

Yes. I would argue that they did not fully understand what the gospel of the Kingdom was, but they were to preach that its at hand as instructed.

Incorrect.

Acts 3:19a Repent ye therefore, and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins,

1.) "may be blotted out" is an aorist infinitive passive. Infinitive verbs indicate the goal or outcome of the controlling verb, which is "repent" and "turn again. Therefore, when they repent and turn back to God, their sins are blotted out.

Acts 3:20b 1.) when (so that) the times of refreshing 2.) may come from the presence of the Lord

1.) "when" is the greek word 'hopos'. It is an adverb that can also be used as a conjunction that helps to indicate when an intended goal is to be reached. It is more often translated as "so that". Therefore, they are to repent and turn to the Lord for the blotting of their sins, SO THAT they may experience times of refreshing.

2.) "may come" is an aorist subjunctive active, and is therefore dependent on the previous clause of the audience turning and repenting to have their sins blotted out.

From helps word studies:
3704 hópōs (an adverb that is also used as a conjunction – derived from ho, "which" and 4459 /pṓs, "how, in what way," J. Thayer) – that, focusing on the necessary measures (factors, desires) that are required for the intended goal to be reached.

3704 /hópōs ("so that") is stronger than simple "that," because it emphasizes the method (qualities, prerequisites) involved to accomplish the objective (purpose) at hand.

Thus, based on the grammar, the sins are not blotted out when times of refreshing come. The sins are blotted out when they turn and repent SO THAT times of refreshing may come.

Well if you want to use greek to convince yourself, instead of the KJV, that is your perogative.

Do you not accept that, in the letters that James, Peter and John wrote to Israel, salvation is always something to be expected in the future?

None of them ever mentioned in their letters that they can expect salvation the moment they turn and repent.

Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you trying to say the 3,000 who repented on the Day of Pentecost died without having their sins forgiven?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

........................................................................

Acts 3:19

(CJB) "Therefore, repent and turn to God, so that your sins may be erased;

(ESV) Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

(Geneva) Amend your liues therefore, and turne, that your sinnes may be put away, whe the time of refreshing shal come from the presence of the Lord.

(Greek NT TR) μετανοησατε ουν και επιστρεψατε εις το εξαλειφθηναι υμων τας αμαρτιας οπως αν ελθωσιν καιροι αναψυξεως απο προσωπου του κυριου

(GW) So change the way you think and act, and turn to God to have your sins removed.

(KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

(KJV+) RepentG3340 ye therefore,G3767 andG2532 be converted,G1994 that yourG5216 sinsG266 may be blotted out,G1813 whenG3704 the timesG2540 of refreshingG403 shall comeG2064 G302 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord;G2962

(NKJV) Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

(NLT) Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

(YLT) reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

.

As Peter said, their sins will be forgiven when Christ return for Israel.

I mean, if death is like falling asleep, to them, it will happen instantaenously.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
As Peter said, their sins will be forgiven when Christ return for Israel.

I mean, if death is like falling asleep, to them, it will happen instantaenously.

I have heard some strange things from Dispensationalists, but I will have to admit this is a new one.

You are telling us the Apostle Paul died without having his sins forgiven, because he was an Israelite...

Can you reference anyone else who agrees with you on this idea?

.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I have heard some strange things from Dispensationalists, but I will have to admit this is a new one.

You are telling us the Apostle Paul died without having his sins forgiven, because he was an Israelite...

Can you reference anyone else who agrees with you on this idea?

.

On the contrary, I believe Paul was the first person to be saved in the Body of Christ. He is our pattern.

1 Timothy 1:16

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Studyman · Aug 21, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Something i found was interesting that I just noticed....look at this verse in Hebrews 7:

Hebrews 7:28 ~ For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever

But what is important, is after "What Law"? The deception that the "other voice" in the garden has convinced many of, is that the Hebrews author is speaking about God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments, all of them as "Mosaic Law". This is a cleaver and subtle way to convince others that God's Law is basically gone. Removed, re-defined, not to be taken seriously. Exactly the same message the serpent convinced Eve of. In fact the entire foundation of just about every religious franchise on this planet, is planted firmly on this deception.

But It wasn't the 10 commandments that appointed priests, it wasn't the Holy Feasts of the Christ that appointed Priests, it wasn't God's creation or Definition of Clean and unclean that appointed Priests.

It was a Law of a Priesthood given exclusively to Levi, who GOD Separated from the rest of the people of the world, for the exclusive purpose of Administering God's Laws, and to provide for the atonement of sins "Til the Seed should come". A Law that Abraham didn't have. A Law "ADDED" to God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments, "because of Transgression" of God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments.

But we have, for centuries, been taught by those religious men who come in Christ's Name, that there is no separation between the Law added, and the Law it was add to. They preach there was no Covenant with Levi on Israel's behalf. That the Law that was "ADDED" was God's entire Law, not the Priesthood that was temporary from it's conception.

I can see you are questioning the broad path "many" are on. It is good to see.

It was a Good catch on Heb. 7:28.

"the Word of the Oath" which came "after the law".

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, "I WILL" put My Laws in their inward parts. "I WILL" forgive their sins.

Good post

claninja · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
Well if you want to use greek to convince yourself, instead of the KJV, that is your perogative.

The KJV is translated from the greek, but if you want to ignore the actual greek grammar, which surmounts your argument, that is your prerogative.

Guojing said:
Do you not accept that, in the letters that James, Peter and John wrote to Israel, salvation is always something to be expected in the future?

I agree that salvation has a future aspect, even Paul declares that salvation has a future aspect.

Romans 13:11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

Romans 5:9-10 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Guojing said:
As Peter said, their sins will be forgiven when Christ return for Israel.

Peter never said that. that is your personal interpretation which goes against 1.) the actual grammar of the words in greek and 2.) the very gospel as presented in the NT.

In just the previous chapter, Peter told Israel to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus FOR THE FORGIVEneSS OF THEIR SINS.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

mkgal1 · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
On the contrary, I believe Paul was the first person to be saved in the Body of Christ. He is our pattern.

Why are you singling Paul out as our example? How is he the first that was saved? What about Mary, the mother of Jesus; Joseph, His father; John the baptist; the disciples....etc? Why aren't they included?

mkgal1 · Aug 21, 2020

Studyman said:
It was a Good catch on Heb. 7:28.

"the Word of the Oath" which came "after the law".

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, "I WILL" put My Laws in their inward parts. "I WILL" forgive their sins.

As I'm re-reading the Bible with a fresh perspective that God had one plan - to reconcile humanity to Himself - and that His covenants were a progression moving towards that goal I see that common thread of grace God had with those that were loyal to Him. I think you're saying the same thing.....basically we have to sort of tease out these oaths God made to fulfill His promises (because they're often mixed in with a contrasting and separate operating system that was only shadows of what was to come for those living in biblical times). It's certainly not as simple as splitting the Bible into two covenants....and suggesting all from the old testament is abolished (Jesus was clear that's not true).

But I don't want there to be confusion about my point....I'm also not asserting there's any reason for legalism or a need to follow feasts or keep the Sabbath (which seems to be BABerean2's assumption as to what you're advocating for - although I'm not sure). Those were all shadows of the reality of what Christ has fulfilled. They were "tudors" to bring people to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 ~ Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
On the contrary, I believe Paul was the first person to be saved in the Body of Christ. He is our pattern.

1 Timothy 1:16

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Are you claiming the Apostles John, and Peter did not have their sins forgiven when they died?

.

Studyman · Aug 21, 2020

mkgal1 said:
As I'm re-reading the Bible with a fresh perspective that God had one plan - to reconcile humanity to Himself - and that His covenants were a progression moving towards that goal I see that common thread of grace God had with those that were loyal to Him. I think you're saying the same thing.....basically we have to sort of tease out these oaths God made to fulfill His promises (because they're often mixed in with a contrasting and separate operating system that was only shadows of what was to come for those living in biblical times). It's certainly not as simple as splitting the Bible into two covenants....and suggesting all from the old testament is abolished (Jesus was clear that's not true).

But I don't want their to be confusion about my point....I'm also not asserting there's any reason for legalism or a need to follow feasts or keep the Sabbath (which seems to be BABerean2's assumption as to what you're advocating for - although I'm not sure).

I'm not an advocate of religious men telling others how to serve, or not to serve the God of Abraham which became Flesh in the Person of Jesus. I agree with Paul who says "Let each be convinced in his own mind".

I understand and believe the choice God has placed before all men. A choice between listening to Him, or the "other" voice in the garden. This "other voice" convinces folks first that God's Word can not be trusted. Then goes on to convince them that God's Commandment is a burden that makes men blind. A very popular religious view in the land today.

What I dedicate myself to on these forums, is to bringing modern religious traditions of the religions of the land I am born into, into the Light of the Word of God which HE Says are Spirit and Life, so that we may discern if these doctrines are wrought in God or not.

Much the same way Jesus brought the religious doctrines and tradition of the religion He was born into, onto His Light.

Armed with the Truth of the Scriptures, we can quench to deceptions of the "other voice" in the garden, and endure to the end, as the Scriptures tell us.

mkgal1 · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
On the contrary, I believe Paul was the first person to be saved in the Body of Christ. He is our pattern.

1 Timothy 1:16

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

That's not what that passage is saying....that Paul was the first person to be saved into the Body of Christ.

This is why reading other translations becomes useful.....because when we read the same language over the years and exclude other translations, we can easily remain in the same rut of misunderstanding.

1 Timothy 1:16 ~ But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of His great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

Doesn't that make much more sense, knowing what we know about Paul's history?

"1 Timothy 1:16 Lexicon:

ETA: in doing a search for "King James only dispensationalism " ..... this book came up as a result:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1973685426/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EPeqFb5JDKHNS

From the description of the book:
Most believers raised in churches that contend for the King James Bible as the infallible word of God are familiar with 2 Timothy 2:15 and the idea of dispensationalism. In fact, most Bible believers are so familiar with their Scofield Reference Bibles they can tell you which side of the page a certain passage is on from memory. For many Bible believers, dispensationalism, as a theological system, answers so called "problem passages" that clearly teach salvation by means other than "by grace...through faith" in the finished work of Jesus Christ. At the same time, many King James Only believers remain unsettled or unsure about the differences in salvation under the various dispensations.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2020

mkgal1 said:
That's not what that passage is saying....that Paul was the first person to be saved into the Body of Christ.

This is why reading other translations becomes useful.....because when we read the same language over the years and exclude other translations, we can easily remain in the same rut of misunderstanding.

1 Timothy 1:16 ~ But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of His great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others will realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

Doesn't that make much more sense, knowing what we know about Paul's history?

"1 Timothy 1:16 Lexicon:

ETA: in doing a search for "King James only dispensationalism " ..... this book came up as a result:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1973685426/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_EPeqFb5JDKHNS

From the description of the book:
Most believers raised in churches that contend for the King James Bible as the infallible word of God are familiar with 2 Timothy 2:15 and the idea of dispensationalism. In fact, most Bible believers are so familiar with their Scofield Reference Bibles they can tell you which side of the page a certain passage is on from memory. For many Bible believers, dispensationalism, as a theological system, answers so called "problem passages" that clearly teach salvation by means other than "by grace...through faith" in the finished work of Jesus Christ. At the same time, many King James Only believers remain unsettled or unsure about the differences in salvation under the various dispensations.

Yes, when I said I believe, I am open to the possibility it may not be true. It is my personal belief.

It makes sense to have Paul as the first member since he is the apostle to the Gentiles. If you don't believe that he is the first, I am fine too.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you claiming the Apostles John, and Peter did not have their sins forgiven when they died?

.

I believe none of the other 12 are in the Body of Christ, they are in charge of Israel. Recall Jesus promised them that, when he returns for Israel, they will be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Thus, I can accept that, when Jesus returns, they will definitely be included. So my answer to you is "Yes, their sins are forgiven".

Based on what they told Israel in their letters placed at the end of the NT, they are all looking forward to Jesus returning for Israel.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Why are you singling Paul out as our example? How is he the first that was saved? What about Mary, the mother of Jesus; Joseph, His father; John the baptist; the disciples....etc? Why aren't they included?

I have quoted to you what Paul told Timothy that he is our pattern. He already stated clearly "in me first". Since Romans to Philemon are doctrine for the Body of Christ, I take that as he is the first.

As for the other 12, I believe none of them are in the Body of Christ, they are in charge of Israel. Recall Jesus promised them that, when he returns for Israel, they will be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

mkgal1 · Aug 21, 2020

Guojing said:
He already stated clearly "in me first". Since Romans to Philemon are doctrine for the Body of Christ, I take that as he is the first.

If you use the link to the lexicon I provided, it shows that the original word used means "chief". IOW Paul is the prime example of God’s grace with even the worst ....the chief or foremost of sinners (as Paul considered himself to be). The psssage isn't about Paul....it's about God's mercy.

This is the previous verse (in KJV, for you). It's the same original word. We know Paul wasn't the first sinner....right?----> 1 Timothy 1:15 Lexicon: It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2020

mkgal1 said:
If you use the link to the lexicon I provided, it shows that the original word used means "chief". IOW Paul is the prime example of God’s grace with even the worst sinners (as Paul considered himself to be). The psssage isn't about Paul....it's about God's mercy.

This is the previous verse (in KJV, for you). It's the same original word. We know Paul wasn't the first sinner....right?----> 1 Timothy 1:15 Lexicon: It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

This is a non salvfic issue so whether Paul was the first member of the body of Christ, we are free to believe either way

Covenant and New Covenant theology

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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