Matthew 24, the divide

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Yeah, and it also has a word that is translated "presence". It means before the face of, so presence. So parousia means presence too.

This is the connector in Revelation to Mat 24 and the other verses. Follow the bread crumbs, that is why I'm Pre-Wrath. :)

The reason we cannot peg down the day or hour has to do with there is no Temple over in Israel yet. Once we see the Temple and sacrifices start to be offered, then we can count 2300 days until days until Jesus returns to cleans the Temple. In the middle of the the 70th week, the beast stops the sacrifices, defiles the Temple by sitting in it, and sets up the AD, and the great Trib starts. (Doug has something similar on one of his charts).
Sorry, that 2300 days was for the time the temple was cleansed when Antioch poluted it back around 173 BC. You are therefore pulling that verse and that number out of its BC context.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Nice study, but. Revelation 6 points out at the opening of the 6th seal, God on the throne comes down to the clouds. It also says the Lamb is with Him. Hint, the Lamb, the one who was pierced. This is the event no one knows when will happen, but it could happen very soon. The 6th seal does not start the trib. The first 4 do.
Mistaken yet again. The seals are church age, seal 1 being the church sent out with the gospel.

anyone can make the bible say most anything if they are willing to pull verses out of context.

If you look back into chapter 5, Jesus got the book and began opening seals as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. You have "jumped the gun" by about 2000 years!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Anyway, if you don't WANT to go to heaven, God knows the desire of your heart.
Well iamlamad, I just gave you 2 'agree' ticks.

But statements of yours like the above, displays your extreme bias for the unbiblical belief of escaping any trials and going to live in heaven.
That's not so bad, as it isn't a salvation issue, you will be shocked when it doesn't happen; but to judge and sentence your fellow Christian brethren, is far more serious.
 
Upvote 0

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
63
St. Louis
✟17,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, that 2300 days was for the time the temple was cleansed when Antioch poluted it back around 173 BC. You are therefore pulling that verse and that number out of its BC context.
Yeah, most do. I think we have made a mistake over the years in applying everything to back then. IOM, the appointed time of the end mans what it says. :)

Interpretation of the Vision

15When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man. 16And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision.” 17So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”

18Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. 19He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
 
Upvote 0

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
63
St. Louis
✟17,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Oh! How quaint! Prewrath has far more problems that posttrib!

Prewrath has the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of in the seals - while John and the Holy Spirit start those days in chapter 14! Only about 8 chapters off!

Pre-Wrath believes the great trib is only in the 4-5, some only 5. The 6th seal being when the parousia is and the wrath of God starts, and all seals are in sequence. The wrath of God is only in the trumpets and bowls, and that the 70th week is all future. Some see the bowls as being concurrent.

The difference in between Post-Trib is Pre-Wrath is, Pre-Wrath believes we are rescued from the wrath to come and taken to Heaven at the parousia, for about a year. Then Jesus takes possession of the earth at Rev 19. Post-Trib has us being protected through the wrath and then meeting Jesus in the clouds and coming right back to earth in Rev 19.

This is similar to Pre-Trib, in that we are taken to Heaven not to partake in the wrath of God, and we come back to take possession of the earth with Jesus at Rev 19. The difference is duration of time in Heaven (and what & when the wrath is), and not two separate parousia', but one event where God is present and active after the parousia in the worlds affairs-and the world knows this (at the sixth seal), ending with Jesus taking possession of the earth. This fits with the word, and there is no word parousia in Rev 19, where the kings of the earth are now wanting to fight Jesus, compared to them hiding at the sixth seal. :)
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Well iamlamad, I just gave you 2 'agree' ticks.

But statements of yours like the above, displays your extreme bias for the unbiblical belief of escaping any trials and going to live in heaven.
That's not so bad, as it isn't a salvation issue, you will be shocked when it doesn't happen; but to judge and sentence your fellow Christian brethren, is far more serious.
On the contrary, I am going to heaven with the bride of Christ, to wait out the time of Wrath. If you can't believe this, that is on you, not on me. I BELIEVE John 14. I believe the other end times scriptures. Sorry, I cannot find a scripture that says the Gentile church is going to Israel. Neither can most of Evangelical Christianity: I have never heard this theory before you.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Pre-Wrath believes the great trib is only in the 4-5, some only 5. The 6th seal being when the parousia is and the wrath of God starts, and all seals are in sequence. The wrath of God is only in the trumpets and bowls, and that the 70th week is all future. Some see the bowls as being concurrent.

The difference in between Post-Trib is Pre-Wrath is, Pre-Wrath believes we are rescued from the wrath to come and taken to Heaven at the parousia, for about a year. Then Jesus takes possession of the earth at Rev 19. Post-Trib has us being protected through the wrath and then meeting Jesus in the clouds and coming right back to earth in Rev 19.

This is similar to Pre-Trib, in that we are taken to Heaven not to partake in the wrath of God, and we come back to take possession of the earth with Jesus at Rev 19. The difference is duration of time in Heaven (and what & when the wrath is), and not two separate parousia', but one event where God is present and active after the parousia in the worlds affairs-and the world knows this (at the sixth seal), ending with Jesus taking possession of the earth. This fits with the word, and there is no word parousia in Rev 19, where the kings of the earth are now wanting to fight Jesus, compared to them hiding at the sixth seal. :)

When we understand the entire book of Revelation, understand WHO CAUSES those days of GT, and HOW those days are caused, we get an entirely diffrent picture.

First, Jesus said those days of GT (the days Jesus talked about) would not come before the midpoint of the 70th week. WE can PROVE that the midpoint of the week is somewhere in chapters 11, 12, or 13 because John has given us 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end in these chapters.

Then Jesus said that those who SEE the abomination (marked by the 7th trumpet) they are to flee. We see this fleeing in 12:6, proving the exact midpoint (the exact moment of the abomination) is seconds before 12:6.

Therefore, by the words of Jesus and of John, the days of GT are AFTER chapters 11,12, and 13.

Then when we understand the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet, and they only show up in chapter 13, we know the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13.

Then when we discover HOW the days of GT come about, by the Beast and False prophet creating a MARK and forcing all to take that mark or lose their head, when ANGELS cover the planet warning people that if they take the mark they will be doomed to the lake of fire - GREAT PRESSURE (GT) will be put on people. We notice that God WARNS people not to take the mark in chapter 14, so we know the mark is not yet being enforced.

Finally, we see that the Beheaded martyrs BEGIN to show up on heaven in chapter 15, we then know that the days of GT JESUS spoke of will not start until late in chapter 14.

However, there may well be OTHER days of GT, not the ones Jesus spoke of. You see, the great crowd seen in heaven, before John has even started the 70th week, are said to have come (Greek is present tense so coming) from "great tribulation." Yet, we know the rapture will be instantaneous. How could people be coming one by one (present tense Greek) when it is a sudden event? John is not talking about how they got from earth to heaven, but how they got into this GROUP (one by one). He is talking about how each one left the world and became born again. They did come one by one, and were still coming one by one at the time of the rapture.

God tells us that the church age is a time of tribulation. He said we would have tribulation. Since this great crowd came from the church age, and the church age is mega long, as in 2000 years, I suspect God had John put the two together: tribulation that is great because it lasts 2000 years.

So, yes, there is tribulation during seals 1 through 5 which is church age. And John called it tribulation great or GT. But it is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Therefore, it does not have to come at any specific time; just church age.

So seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church, using war, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts.
Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 is after the rapture and is the Start of the Day of the Lord and His WRATH.
Seal 7 starts the 70th week.
Trumpet 7 marks the midpoint of the week.
Vial 7 ends the week.
Jesus returns some unknown time after the week ends as shown in chapter 19.
 
Upvote 0

Running2win

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
738
464
63
St. Louis
✟17,893.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When we understand the entire book of Revelation, understand WHO CAUSES those days of GT, and HOW those days are caused, we get an entirely diffrent picture.

First, Jesus said those days of GT (the days Jesus talked about) would not come before the midpoint of the 70th week. WE can PROVE that the midpoint of the week is somewhere in chapters 11, 12, or 13 because John has given us 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end in these chapters.

Then Jesus said that those who SEE the abomination (marked by the 7th trumpet) they are to flee. We see this fleeing in 12:6, proving the exact midpoint (the exact moment of the abomination) is seconds before 12:6.

Therefore, by the words of Jesus and of John, the days of GT are AFTER chapters 11,12, and 13.

Then when we understand the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet, and they only show up in chapter 13, we know the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13.

Then when we discover HOW the days of GT come about, by the Beast and False prophet creating a MARK and forcing all to take that mark or lose their head, when ANGELS cover the planet warning people that if they take the mark they will be doomed to the lake of fire - GREAT PRESSURE (GT) will be put on people. We notice that God WARNS people not to take the mark in chapter 14, so we know the mark is not yet being enforced.

Finally, we see that the Beheaded martyrs BEGIN to show up on heaven in chapter 15, we then know that the days of GT JESUS spoke of will not start until late in chapter 14.

However, there may well be OTHER days of GT, not the ones Jesus spoke of. You see, the great crowd seen in heaven, before John has even started the 70th week, are said to have come (Greek is present tense so coming) from "great tribulation." Yet, we know the rapture will be instantaneous. How could people be coming one by one (present tense Greek) when it is a sudden event? John is not talking about how they got from earth to heaven, but how they got into this GROUP (one by one). He is talking about how each one left the world and became born again. They did come one by one, and were still coming one by one at the time of the rapture.

God tells us that the church age is a time of tribulation. He said we would have tribulation. Since this great crowd came from the church age, and the church age is mega long, as in 2000 years, I suspect God had John put the two together: tribulation that is great because it lasts 2000 years.

So, yes, there is tribulation during seals 1 through 5 which is church age. And John called it tribulation great or GT. But it is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Therefore, it does not have to come at any specific time; just church age.

So seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel
Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church, using war, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts.
Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 is after the rapture and is the Start of the Day of the Lord and His WRATH.
Seal 7 starts the 70th week.
Trumpet 7 marks the midpoint of the week.
Vial 7 ends the week.
Jesus returns some unknown time after the week ends as shown in chapter 19.

I'm a futurist so I see everything in the 70th week. But I do agree the wrath of God starts at the sixth seal! :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I cannot find a scripture that says the Gentile church is going to Israel.
There are many, but people who believe in another future for the Lord's people, simply say they all pertain to the Jews. Which is patently not true.

Romans 9:24-26 is the best prophecy in the NT about Christians in the holy Land.
The people who will be called the children of the Living God are in the very place; the Land of Israel, at that time.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
There are many, but people who believe in another future for the Lord's people, simply say they all pertain to the Jews. Which is patently not true.

Romans 9:24-26 is the best prophecy in the NT about Christians in the holy Land.
The people who will be called the children of the Living God are in the very place; the Land of Israel, at that time.
I think we will find that whatever scripture you say tells you that Christians go to Israel, most others would say the same scripture says descendants of JACOB will go to Israel. In other words, you read those scriptures differently.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I think we will find that whatever scripture you say tells you that Christians go to Israel, most others would say the same scripture says descendants of JACOB will go to Israel. In other words, you read those scriptures differently.
Who then, are the descendants of Jacob today?
Are they only those people who currently occupy a small part of the holy Land and have wrongly claimed to be Israel?
Or are they the Overcomers for God, the literal meaning of the word 'Israelite'?
Note; how there are Overcomers, the Victorious ones in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.

I read and understand the prophesies in the light of New Testament teachings.
Like Ephesians 2:11-18, which says there is no ethnicity for God's people. And Galatians 3:26-29....we Christians are the children of Abraham by faith....
It is people like you who almost idolize the Jewish State of Israel, as though they are still the chosen of God. This belief is the height of stupidity, as it contradicts the Words of Jesus. Matthew 21:43, Revelation 2:9
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Who then, are the descendants of Jacob today?
Are they only those people who currently occupy a small part of the holy Land and have wrongly claimed to be Israel?
Or are they the Overcomers for God, the literal meaning of the word 'Israelite'?
Note; how there are Overcomers, the Victorious ones in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.

I read and understand the prophesies in the light of New Testament teachings.
Like Ephesians 2:11-18, which says there is no ethnicity for God's people. And Galatians 3:26-29....we Christians are the children of Abraham by faith....
It is people like you who almost idolize the Jewish State of Israel, as though they are still the chosen of God. This belief is the height of stupidity, as it contradicts the Words of Jesus. Matthew 21:43, Revelation 2:9
You ask a very good question, but search any map: there is NO OTHER "Israel" with a Jerusalem which Jesus will return to anywhere else. What we see on the may is the very Israel we read of in prophecies.

Does a bald man grow hair after being born again? Is a fat man suddenly slim? When Paul wrote, "all things are become new," we understand that to be things in the realm of the SPIRIT. In the same way, when a Jew is born again, IN THE SPIRIT He is made ONE with Christ, and when a Gentile is born again, He too IN THE SPIRIT is made ONE. But the JEW still has a Jewish mother, and the Gentile remains a Gentile. Paul had no trouble speaking of GENTILE churches.

The Gentiles who are born again today are Abraham SPIRITUAL children. We are grafted in to the Jewish tree. But we are still Gentiles.

As I said, you read these scriptures differently. I have yet to meet any believer that believes as you do, that our destination is Israel, not heaven.

In other words, you are pretty much on your own.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We are grafted in to the Jewish tree. But we are still Gentiles.

Paul had to correct Peter for treating the Gentile believers differently than the Jewish believers.
Some of us are making the same mistake today.


A modern Orthodox Jew finds the New Covenant in the Hebrew scriptures:


.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As I said, you read these scriptures differently. I have yet to meet any believer that believes as you do, that our destination is Israel, not heaven.

In other words, you are pretty much on your own.
The Bible is clear. Now; God's people are scattered around the world. They are as many as the sands of the sea.
Many prophesies tell us the Lord will gather the faithful Christians into the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Romans 9:24-26

If the truth is on my side, then I am not alone.
You think the majority must be right? That comfortable idea has been wrong many times.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Jeremiah 31:39-40 The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honor. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished.

This passage from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will judge the unrighteous, then how His people, every faithful Christian, the Israelites of God, will go to live in the Land that He promised to their [spiritual] forefathers.

God will make a new covenant with them, in order for them to fulfil their destiny to be a light to the nations, and to spread to gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19 – also described in Revelation 7 and 14 as the 144,000.

Many more prophesied events will take place, then, will come the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus, to reign for 1000 years.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jeremiah 31:39-40 The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honor. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished.

This passage from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will judge the unrighteous, then how His people, every faithful Christian, the Israelites of God, will go to live in the Land that He promised to their [spiritual] forefathers.

God will make a new covenant with them, in order for them to fulfil their destiny to be a light to the nations, and to spread to gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19 – also described in Revelation 7 and 14 as the 144,000.

Many more prophesied events will take place, then, will come the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus, to reign for 1000 years.


Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Right BaB, and we know when that heavenly city will become the home of all God's faithful people. AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Before that time, there will be a Jerusalem, rebuilt to the glory of God, as Jeremiah and many other prophesies predict.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Right BaB, and we know when that heavenly city will become the home of all God's faithful people. AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Before that time, there will be a Jerusalem, rebuilt to the glory of God, as Jeremiah and many other prophesies predict.


It is to bad that Jesus and the New Testament writers did not know about your "Millennium".

Otherwise they could have corrected Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:15-18, in order to agree with your viewpoint.


.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
It is to bad that Jesus and the New Testament writers did not know about your "Millennium".

Otherwise they could have corrected Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:15-18, in order to agree with your viewpoint.
But Jesus did. He prophesied it in Luke 13:32 and again, six times in Revelation 20.

The final 1000 years is amply proved by the 2 exact 2000 year periods passed and the 3rd is only 10 +/- years away from completion. Does that truth scare you?
 
Upvote 0