Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I didn’t say it was and why do think it has to be in there?
All Jews understand the KoH and the KoG message. It was only preached to the Jewish nation Matthew 10:6-7.

2. The scriptures show that they have an earthly calling forever. I gave you the scriptures and you won’t believe it.
The scriptures say that Christ didn’t deny the KoH reign but it wasn’t for the disciples to know the times and seasons but the Father knew Acts 1:6-7.
This is the last time it is mentioned and the only time in the New Testament.
Amills basically believe Armageddon goes into the New Heaven and the New Earth.
Acts 3:19 talks about the restitution of all things which is the same as the restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven in Acts 1:6-7.
The New Heaven and the New Earth are brand new so they won’t be restored.

3. The main thing is if you don’t understand the Jewish nation’s calling that is different from the churches calling in the kingdom then you don’t understand the big picture of God’s plan and why he is doing it that way.
So what do you believe about Israel and the future kingdom? Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Here are "they".
Genetically, every person on planet earth.
How does God distinguish "they" from "they"?
As He always has.
Not by physical DNA.
But by spiritual DNA.
Two genes.
Faith and obedience.
And nothing else.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

sovereigngrace said:

I see you have totally sidestepped my detailed rebuttals to you.



Says who? Your Dispy teachers. There is only one kingdom and it is spiritual, heavenly and eternal. The one you, your Dispy teachers and the Pharisees anticipate was faulty and unscriptural. It has no place under the new covenant. It has no mention in the NT. It must be forced into it. It is fictional.



Earthly people are of their father the devil and go to hell. Heavenly people are born off God and go to heaven.



I already refuted this and you already avoided this. That is because you are twisting what the text says.



The context is speaking about a spiritual kingdom.



Not true. You clearly do not know what they teach. The opposite is the truth. They believe in a perfect and eternal kingdom being introduced free of the bondage of corruption, sin and sinner, death and decay.



You do not even get what that statement means. This current corrupt arrangement has to go. It needs changed. That occurs at the one and only coming of Christ when He comes to remove every last vestige of the fall and introduce eternal justice. Premil is a total contradiction of Scripture.



It is not the Jewish nation that matters. It is all about sinners in all nations under the new covenant. There is neither Jew nor Gentile today. There is no favoritism when it comes to color and races today. The old covenant is gone forever.

Current ethnic Israel is apostate and under the wrath of God. Like every other antichrist nation, they are of their father the devil.



If they bow the knee to Christ and get born again they enter the global ekklesia and they will be saved.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. I didn’t sidestep any rebuttals. One of the first ones, I addressed half of your guzillion scriptures you had.

2. You can disagree and accuse but you can’t prove.
I gave you 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37:16-28 etc. for Israel having an eternal covenant conditioned by obedience and will eventually come back to God to rule and reign on earth.
You never even addressed these scriptures.
Matthew 10:6-7 says the KoH was preached only the the lost sheep of Israel.
And the comments you make about disputes teachers is crazy. It is a Jewish history and facts about the KoH and you ignore it or say their covenants are over with or goes to the church etc.


3. Acts 1:6-7 you never addressed it that I recall but either way I never twisted nothing. You are free to show me what post it is on because there are some new posts that pop on at different times that I may not be aware of.
It surely is not a spiritual kingdom especially to Jews and that is who he is speaking too.

4. The perfect and eternal kingdom is the New Heaven and the New Earth where God tabernacles with men and the Holy City comes down etc.

5. The restitution of all things will happen at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
Peter understood this as the KoH Acts 1:6-7 and that’s why he was asking the question about restoration of the KoH.
He also knew about Joel’s prophecy and some of the signs that would accompany it.
The other part of Joel’s prophecy that has to happen is that creation has have the curse lifted in Israel for the flowers to bloom etc. in order for the millennial kingdom to start.

6. Israel is apostate right now. However, the Jewish nation will all be saved after the time of Jacob’s trouble. Paul understood this Romans 11:25-29.
This is what the tribulation is about; the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-9; Matthew 24:15,21
It has to be under the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 86-13 for their is no Old Covenant Hebrews 8:6-7.

7. It has nothing to do with with favoritism about a different calling and rulership position in the KoH. They have to be saved under the New Covenant in order to receive it. God gave them the eternal promise as a whole nation.
Argue with him, you’re position is against what he says in his word.

8. Ezekiel 37:16 gives the account of Judah and Israel being backslidden and becoming one stick in the future kingdom with David as their king in complete unification.
Jerry kelso

jgr said:

Here are "they".
Genetically, every person on planet earth.
How does God distinguish "they" from "they"?
As He always has.
Not by physical DNA.
But by spiritual DNA.
Two genes.
Faith and obedience.
And nothing else.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Click to expand...

jgr,

1. 1Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
Israel was promised an eternal kingdom but the whole nation must be saved.
Israel is backslidden today but will be saved when Christ comes back Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14. The last half of the tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-10, Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21.
Romans 11:25-29; try to put the church in those scriptures.
You can’t unless you use the spiritual Jew theory to make your theory work.
The word first. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I didn’t sidestep any rebuttals. One of the first ones, I addressed half of your guzillion scriptures you had.

Click to expand...

Pretribbers do not mind making unsubstantiated statements and then attaching a list of biblical references. One thing they do not like doing is quoting the actual references and fleshing it out. That is because it only serves to expose their claims/teaching as extra-biblical.

2. You can disagree and accuse but you can’t prove.
I gave you 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37:16-28 etc. for Israel having an eternal covenant conditioned by obedience and will eventually come back to God to rule and reign on earth..

You never even addressed these scriptures.

Click to expand...

Here is a typical example. You just list what your teachers have taught you but seem unable to actually exegete the inspired text. That is because Pretrib is man-made. You admit that the theory enjoys not one single proof text. It should therefore be rejected by every Bible student.

Like every facet of the old covenant the land promise simply served as a temporal arrangement that would be rendered redundant with the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

The Hebrew word owlam is used re the feast of unleavened bread (Exodus 12:17), the “heave offering” (Exodus 29:26-28), the “wave offering” (Exodus 29:25-28), the “meat offering”/”sin offering” (Leviticus 6:13-18), the yearly feast of “Atonement” (Leviticus 16:29-31), “Passover” (Exodus 12:1-4), the “burning of the lamp” in the temple (Exodus 27:20-21), the “priesthood” (Exodus 40:13-15), the “washing” of the priestly hands (Exodus 30:20-21), “clothing” and “anointing” of the priesthood (Exodus 28:40-43), the Levites “carrying the ark of God” (1 Chronicles 15:2), keeping the “Sabbath” (Exodus 31:16), the children of the strangers “bondmen” of the children of Israel (Leviticus 25:45-46), the literal “throne” of Israel (2 Samuel 7:12-13).

Are these all eternal? No! Premils cherry-pick one aspect that suits their theology and push that, to the exclusion of the rest. They also ignore the very meaning of everlasting to sustain their theory. We should recognize that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable. No sane historian would surely suggest that Israel has held her ancient land or borders unbroken. The fact is: Israel has been exiled from the land for substantial periods of time throughout history. If Genesis 13:15 was saying what the futurists claim, then Israel would have enjoyed continual unbroken possession of the land. That has not happened – quite the opposite. When Israel has rebelled they have been banished off the land.

Matthew 10:6-7 says the KoH was preached only the the lost sheep of Israel.
And the comments you make about disputes teachers is crazy. It is a Jewish history and facts about the KoH and you ignore it or say their covenants are over with or goes to the church etc.

Click to expand...

I see you carefully added the word "only" to the inspired text in order to support your beliefs. That is deceitful. It was first preached to the Jews and then the Gentiles. It is still being preached. The KOG and the KOH are the same kingdom. They involve the same Gospel.

Dispensationalists attempt to differentiate between the biblical terms “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God.” They argue that these kingdoms differ in their character, focus and realisation. However, an elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred. Notwithstanding, they both unequivocally allude to the one glorious eternal kingdom and Almighty God who sovereignly reigns from heaven. The evidence to back up such a supposition is absolute, and can be supported by a wealth of proof in the Gospels. These terms being frequently used and interchanged in (1) the same reference, (2) similar references, and (3) identical references, to describe this Divine spiritual Kingdom.

1. The same passage

Matthew records Christ using both terms in the one passage when describing His Kingdom: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (19:23-24).

These two terms are here used in the same context to describe the same kingly realm. The subject of this reading is the difficulty that the rich have in entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of God). Anyone trying to base a theology on the difference between the two synonymous terms is strongly rebutted by this clear reading.

2. Similar passages

Alluding to the simplicity of the faith, Christ made similar statements, whilst in different circumstances, to explain the same eternal kingdom. Once again, He interchanges the terms ‘the kingdom of God’ and ‘the kingdom of heaven’ to describe His everlasting spiritual Kingdom.

(a) In Matthew 18:1-4, Christ is seen rebuking the disciples who were foolishly debating who were the greatest among them. In verse 2, and in response to their dispute, we see Christ calling “a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.”

The Master then said, “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

In a similar passage in Mark 10:15, Christ refers to the kingdom whilst once again rebuking the disciples, only this time it was for trying to stop the little children coming unto Himself. Only, in this encounter, He employs the matching term ‘the kingdom of God’, saying, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The circumstances may have been slightly different yet the message was still the same. Nowhere in Christ teaching is there the slightest licence to make any distinction between these terms. Again we find the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the kingdom of heaven!

(b) Christ, teaching on the parable of the sower declares, in Matthew 13:24-26, 30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.” Christ concluded, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

In a similar, yet distinct passage, in Mark 4:25-29, Christ taught the disciples of the natural law of the harvest, saying, “he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”

3. Parallel passages

This teaching is completely exposed by analysing, and comparing, the apostles record of the very same teaching on the very same occasion. There, the apostles testimony of the corresponding instances and same utterances of the Saviour are interchanged between the term “the kingdom of heaven” and the term “the kingdom of God.” Thus, clearly showing that the two terms are synonymous.

The following are some examples.

Example A

We see in different places that the kingdom is said to be “at hand.”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Again, the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’ are interchanged in these passages while describing the one spiritual kingdom.

Example B

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:12, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven ‘suffereth violence’ (or biazo), and the violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

Example C

Matthew 10:5-14 records the disciples commission, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them…as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

Luke 9:1-6 records, “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

Example D

After expounding the parable of the sower, the twelve disciples asked Christ why He explained His teaching in parables. Matthew and Mark then record the Lord’s response.

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:11, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”
Jesus said, in Mark 4:11, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

Example E

Matthew’s account of the beatitudes in 5:3-6, records Jesus saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon, in Luke 6:20-21, records, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

Example F

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:31, “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:30-31, “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth.”

Example G

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:33, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Jesus said, in Luke 13:20-21, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Example H

Whilst we have previously quoted similar incidents where Christ advanced the same teaching on the subject of children and the kingdom (proving how the two terms are interchangeable), the following quotes are made of the same occasion.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said in Mark 10:14, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Example I

Speaking of the future consummation of the Kingdom, Jesus said, in Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke’s account, in chapter 13:28-29, records, “ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

CONCLUSION

It is plain to see from comparing these parallel accounts in the gospels that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are the same. In these phrases, the word heaven is a metonym for God. A metonymy is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated.

BABerean2 said:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


.

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baberean2,

1. I debunked this ages ago, but you just can’t give it up.

2. Romans 9:6; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 9:15; 11:2; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:6-13.

3. Romans 9:27-29; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
Now see if you can figure out what I am saying. Jerry kelso

sovereigngrace said:

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

John states Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Here, the first resurrection is outlined as the means by which men gain victory over the second death and enter into the great company that reign in Christ – both dead and alive; the redeemed reign in life and in death. In life, they are spiritually positioned in the heavenly Jerusalem, in death, they enter into the immediate presence of God and reign through Him that sits upon the throne.

This corresponds to what Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

This is speaking of the resurrection life that can be enjoyed in this life through faith.

Rev 20 is talking about the salvation that results from being "in Christ." It is our participation in the resurrection life, whether in life or death. Those in view are souls who have passed on "in Christ," but have defeated death and Hades because of the first resurrection of Christ. They now reign in Christ.

This is talking about the first resurrection: Christ's. Without the first resurrection there would be no salvation. Acts 17:30-31 says, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

1 Peter 3:21 witnesses: “baptism (talking about being baptized into Christ’s death upon salvation) doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

We were legally represented “in Christ” in His life, death and resurrection. It was a substitutionary mission Christ was on. Just like we were legally represented “in Adam” when he fell, we were justified in the perfect life that Christ lived, the vicarious sacrifice He made and the triumphant resurrection He secured. The Lord’s resurrection spelt defeat for all unrighteousness. Every enemy of God was defeated in the glorious resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:14 & 17 makes clear: “if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

Why? Christ’s resurrection secured our salvation. In fact, there is no eternal life apart from resurrection. If Christ had simply died and remained in the grave then there would be no victory over sin, death and the grave. Christ took upon Himself our sin (being made sin for us). He was punished for our sin. He conquered our sin by paying the full penalty for it on Calvary’s tree. Christ then defeating sin, death and the grave through His victorious resurrection from the dead.

Click to expand...

These humans on earth did not die spiritually. They died physically, and they are still on earth. After 30 generations, these humans start to rebel and grow restless. They have not died physically nor spiritually. They have lived hundreds of years doing the same thing over and over again. They are growing tired and weary. That is the state of things. What we face in life is totally different. We were born spiritually dead. We know physical death is certain even in infancy. There is a very stark difference in our condition and the next Millennium. Now we have to daily crucify this flesh, and it keeps fighting back, day after day. Why are you denying that a bodily resurrection happens after physical death? Have you physically died and been physically resurrected?

jerry kelso said:

jgr,

1. 1Chronicles 28:1-7; 2 Samuel 7:13-16.
Israel was promised an eternal kingdom but the whole nation must be saved.
Israel is backslidden today but will be saved when Christ comes back Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14. The last half of the tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-10, Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21.
Romans 11:25-29; try to put the church in those scriptures.
You can’t unless you use the spiritual Jew theory to make your theory work.
The word first. Jerry kelso

Click to expand...

jerry,

What identifies your "whole nation"?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. Something else

?

The Jews themselves acknowledge and applaud the reality that the entirety of humanity is genetically Jewish as well as Gentile.

So the only distinction can be via spiritual DNA.

Which destroys dispensational racialized fallacy and fantasy.

sovereigngrace said:

Pretribbers do not mind making unsubstantiated statements and then attaching a list of biblical references. One thing they do not like doing is quoting the actual references and fleshing it out. That is because it only serves to expose their claims/teaching as extra-biblical.



Here is a typical example. You just list what your teachers have taught you but seem unable to actually exegete the inspired text. That is because Pretrib is man-made. You admit that the theory enjoys not one single proof text. It should therefore be rejected by every Bible student.

Like every facet of the old covenant the land promise simply served as a temporal arrangement that would be rendered redundant with the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

The Hebrew word owlam is used re the feast of unleavened bread (Exodus 12:17), the “heave offering” (Exodus 29:26-28), the “wave offering” (Exodus 29:25-28), the “meat offering”/”sin offering” (Leviticus 6:13-18), the yearly feast of “Atonement” (Leviticus 16:29-31), “Passover” (Exodus 12:1-4), the “burning of the lamp” in the temple (Exodus 27:20-21), the “priesthood” (Exodus 40:13-15), the “washing” of the priestly hands (Exodus 30:20-21), “clothing” and “anointing” of the priesthood (Exodus 28:40-43), the Levites “carrying the ark of God” (1 Chronicles 15:2), keeping the “Sabbath” (Exodus 31:16), the children of the strangers “bondmen” of the children of Israel (Leviticus 25:45-46), the literal “throne” of Israel (2 Samuel 7:12-13).

Are these all eternal? No! Premils cherry-pick one aspect that suits their theology and push that, to the exclusion of the rest. They also ignore the very meaning of everlasting to sustain their theory. We should recognize that the English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable. No sane historian would surely suggest that Israel has held her ancient land or borders unbroken. The fact is: Israel has been exiled from the land for substantial periods of time throughout history. If Genesis 13:15 was saying what the futurists claim, then Israel would have enjoyed continual unbroken possession of the land. That has not happened – quite the opposite. When Israel has rebelled they have been banished off the land.



I see you add "only" to the inspired text in order to support your beliefs. That is deceitful. It was first preached to the Jews and then the Gentiles. It is still being preached. The KOG and the KOH are the same kingdom. They involve the same Gospel.

Dispensationalists attempt to differentiate between the biblical terms “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God.” They argue that these kingdoms differ in their character, focus and realisation. However, an elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centred. Notwithstanding, they both unequivocally allude to the one glorious eternal kingdom and Almighty God who sovereignly reigns from heaven. The evidence to back up such a supposition is absolute, and can be supported by a wealth of proof in the Gospels. These terms being frequently used and interchanged in (1) the same reference, (2) similar references, and (3) identical references, to describe this Divine spiritual Kingdom.

1. The same passage

Matthew records Christ using both terms in the one passage when describing His Kingdom: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (19:23-24).

These two terms are here used in the same context to describe the same kingly realm. The subject of this reading is the difficulty that the rich have in entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of God). Anyone trying to base a theology on the difference between the two synonymous terms is strongly rebutted by this clear reading.

2. Similar passages

Alluding to the simplicity of the faith, Christ made similar statements, whilst in different circumstances, to explain the same eternal kingdom. Once again, He interchanges the terms ‘the kingdom of God’ and ‘the kingdom of heaven’ to describe His everlasting spiritual Kingdom.

(a) In Matthew 18:1-4, Christ is seen rebuking the disciples who were foolishly debating who were the greatest among them. In verse 2, and in response to their dispute, we see Christ calling “a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.”

The Master then said, “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.”

In a similar passage in Mark 10:15, Christ refers to the kingdom whilst once again rebuking the disciples, only this time it was for trying to stop the little children coming unto Himself. Only, in this encounter, He employs the matching term ‘the kingdom of God’, saying, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.”

The circumstances may have been slightly different yet the message was still the same. Nowhere in Christ teaching is there the slightest licence to make any distinction between these terms. Again we find the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the kingdom of heaven!

(b) Christ, teaching on the parable of the sower declares, in Matthew 13:24-26, 30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.” Christ concluded, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

In a similar, yet distinct passage, in Mark 4:25-29, Christ taught the disciples of the natural law of the harvest, saying, “he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.”

3. Parallel passages

This teaching is completely exposed by analysing, and comparing, the apostles record of the very same teaching on the very same occasion. There, the apostles testimony of the corresponding instances and same utterances of the Saviour are interchanged between the term “the kingdom of heaven” and the term “the kingdom of God.” Thus, clearly showing that the two terms are synonymous.

The following are some examples.

Example A

We see in different places that the kingdom is said to be “at hand.”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.”

Again, the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’ are interchanged in these passages while describing the one spiritual kingdom.

Example B

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:12, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven ‘suffereth violence’ (or biazo), and the violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man ‘presseth’ (or biazetai – or suffereth violence) into it.”

Example C

Matthew 10:5-14 records the disciples commission, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them…as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

Luke 9:1-6 records, “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

Example D

After expounding the parable of the sower, the twelve disciples asked Christ why He explained His teaching in parables. Matthew and Mark then record the Lord’s response.

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:11, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.”
Jesus said, in Mark 4:11, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

Example E

Matthew’s account of the beatitudes in 5:3-6, records Jesus saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon, in Luke 6:20-21, records, “Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

Example F

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:31, “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

Jesus said, in Mark 4:30-31, “Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth.”

Example G

Jesus said, in Matthew 13:33, “the kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Jesus said, in Luke 13:20-21, “Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Example H

Whilst we have previously quoted similar incidents where Christ advanced the same teaching on the subject of children and the kingdom (proving how the two terms are interchangeable), the following quotes are made of the same occasion.

Jesus said in Matthew 19:14, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Jesus said in Mark 10:14, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Example I

Speaking of the future consummation of the Kingdom, Jesus said, in Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke’s account, in chapter 13:28-29, records, “ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

CONCLUSION

It is plain to see from comparing these parallel accounts in the gospels that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are the same. In these phrases, the word heaven is a metonym for God. A metonymy is a figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated.

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sovereigngrace,

1. I have given you scripture and context and you cannot rebut it.
So your accusation of not substantiating anything is unfounded.

2. I never said dispensationalism was a theory. I don’t know where you got that from. Did you make that up?

3. The land promise was not temporary because the covenants and the gifts and callings are without repentance Romans 11:29. That was in Paul’s day.
You are not being honest to the word of God.

4. The KoH and the KoG are one in the parallel passages like in Mark because the physical KoH is the earthly sphere of the physical universal KoG.
Even David Stern that put out the Jewish Bible Old and New Testaments recognizes the distinction of the physical KoH Matthew 4:17 and the spiritual KoG Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21.
The Jews were only told to seek the KoG for salvation not the physical KoH.

5. The Physical KoH according to the Jews covenants 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and 2 Samuel 13-16 is not being preached today as Jesus taught.
The KoG is preached as the death, burial and resurrection Romans 10:9-10; 14:17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
The KoG in Jesus day was not the death and resurrection message. It pointed to it for they had to believe in the messiah to gain entrance into the KoH. They didn’t know what the death, burial and resurrection was Matthew 16:22-23; John 6:52-76. Even after he arose again they were trying to figure it out Luke 24:27-47.
So you still do not understand because you are trying to figure the details out when you can’t figure out the overall picture. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

3. Acts 1:6-7 you never addressed it that I recall but either way I never twisted nothing. You are free to show me what post it is on because there are some new posts that pop on at different times that I may not be aware of.
It surely is not a spiritual kingdom especially to Jews and that is who he is speaking too.

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I did address it, and you full well know it. You just have no answer to what I wrote. The reader will see who is just throwing out unrelated references and who is quoting and exegeting the passages. This is a common Pretrib tactic. I refer you back to the detailed and avoided post.

4. The perfect and eternal kingdom is the New Heaven and the New Earth where God tabernacles with men and the Holy City comes down etc.

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Exactly. This arrives at the second coming.

5. The restitution of all things will happen at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.

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I addressed this and you ducked and dived around it also. I refer you back to my avoided post that forbids your speculation.

Peter understood this as the KoH Acts 1:6-7 and that’s why he was asking the question about restoration of the KoH.

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2+2=4. not 22. Your deduction is wrong.

He also knew about Joel’s prophecy and some of the signs that would accompany it.
The other part of Joel’s prophecy that has to happen is that creation has have the curse lifted in Israel for the flowers to bloom etc. in order for the millennial kingdom to start.

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Peter knew the kingdom of heaven arrived with the King's first advent. We have been in the millennium/last days for 2000 years.

6. Israel is apostate right now. However, the Jewish nation will all be saved after the time of Jacob’s trouble. Paul understood this Romans 11:25-29.

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Jacob's troubles is historic. I showed you that. You also avoided that evidence, as is your pattern.

This is what the tribulation is about; the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-9; Matthew 24:15,21

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You misinterpret an Old Testament prophecy (Jeremiah 30) that expressly relates to the Babylonian exile, and apply it to some supposed Pretrib rapture, some alleged 7 years trib or a 3rd coming that is not remotely mentioned in the passage. This is how Pretrib hermeneutics work. They employ theological dubious colored rules. This shows us how bereft Pretrib is of biblical support.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.

It has to be under the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 86-13 for their is no Old Covenant Hebrews 8:6-7.

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Christ introduced that on the cross. Man has been there for 2000 years.

7. It has nothing to do with with favoritism about a different calling and rulership position in the KoH. They have to be saved under the New Covenant in order to receive it. God gave them the eternal promise as a whole nation.
Argue with him, you’re position is against what he says in his word.

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There is no favoritism under the new covenant, only under the old covenant. That is now eternally abolished. Pretrib is always fighting for the reintroduction of the same. You are trying to introduce OT nationalist principles into this new covenant international era. That does not work. You are forcing a square peg into a round hole.

8. Ezekiel 37:16 gives the account of Judah and Israel being backslidden and becoming one stick in the future kingdom with David as their king in complete unification.
Jerry kelso

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Christ has already come to deliver Israel. They can still come and get saved and join the Church (God's only spiritual people). Christ the king has come, He is reigning at the right hand of majesty until His enemies are subjugated at His appearing.

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I have given you scripture and context and you cannot rebut it.
So your accusation of not substantiating anything is unfounded.

2. I never said dispensationalism was a theory. I don’t know where you got that from. Did you make that up?

3. The land promise was not temporary because the covenants and the gifts and callings are without repentance Romans 11:29. That was in Paul’s day.
You are not being honest to the word of God.

4. The KoH and the KoG are one in the parallel passages like in Mark because the physical KoH is the earthly sphere of the physical universal KoG.
Even David Stern that put out the Jewish Bible Old and New Testaments recognizes the distinction of the physical KoH Matthew 4:17 and the spiritual KoG Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21.
The Jews were only told to seek the KoG for salvation not the physical KoH.

5. The Physical KoH according to the Jews covenants 1 Chronicles 28:1-7 and 2 Samuel 13-16 is not being preached today as Jesus taught.
The KoG is preached as the death, burial and resurrection Romans 10:9-10; 14:17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
The KoG in Jesus day was not the death and resurrection message. It pointed to it for they had to believe in the messiah to gain entrance into the KoH. They didn’t know what the death, burial and resurrection was Matthew 16:22-23; John 6:52-76. Even after he arose again they were trying to figure it out Luke 24:27-47.
So you still do not understand because you are trying to figure the details out when you can’t figure out the overall picture. Jerry Kelso

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Please stop avoiding everyone's posts. It is only exposing the weakness of your position and error of Pretrib. I refer you back to the many avoided posts. You clearly have nothing. You have already admitted that you have no single proof text in the whole of Scripture. All you have is dubious man-made speculations and theories.

Timtofly said:

These humans on earth did not die spiritually. They died physically, and they are still on earth. After 30 generations, these humans start to rebel and grow restless. They have not died physically nor spiritually. They have lived hundreds of years doing the same thing over and over again. They are growing tired and weary. That is the state of things. What we face in life is totally different. We were born spiritually dead. We know physical death is certain even in infancy. There is a very stark difference in our condition and the next Millennium. Now we have to daily crucify this flesh, and it keeps fighting back, day after day. Why are you denying that a bodily resurrection happens after physical death? Have you physically died and been physically resurrected?

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You are adding unto the text. Where does it say any of this in the Bible (or Rev 20). It does not exist. This is all your own speculations once again. This is exactly what the Left Behind novels are. They are man-made doctrine parcelled as biblical Christianity.

What you attributing to your supposed future millennium is no different from today. It is just a rerun of our day. The reality is: we are currently in Rev 20. It is the last of 7 recaps in Scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

You are adding unto the text. Where does it say any of this in the Bible (or Rev 20). It does not exist. This is all your own speculations once again. This is exactly what the Left Behind novels are. They are man-made doctrine parcelled as biblical Christianity.

What you attributing to your supposed future millennium is no different from today. It is just a rerun of our day. The reality is: we are currently in Rev 20. It is the last of 7 recaps in Scripture.

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Humans have babies. You claim I am making things up. If you want to deny that humans still have babies, go ahead. You make no sense. Babarean2, claims all are dead. That is what Revelation 19 declares. Revelation 20 says some are resurrected. It gives the criteria. Now you say no one dies at Armageddon, and no one is resurrected?

All humanity is dead at Armageddon. Not one of Adam's descendants escapes physical death. DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!

Then after that, that is after that, literally after that, Revelation 20 says the sheep, the wheat, those who died for their testimony as being of the Lamb. Those elected in the harvest. NOT THE CHURCH!!! Those who are beheaded for not worshipping Satan nor receiving the mark. Those people, Not The Church, are bodily resurrected. Not back into sin nature, NO!!! Does Revelation really have to spell out what a bodily resurrection is to your private specification? They already died physically, the old sinful nature body gone, back to dust burned up in the cleansing fire of the Trumpets and Thunders. They were harvested before Satan's 3.5 years. They literally had to die, because they were bodily resurrected. That is what death and resurrection do. If you are not resurrected to life, you are resurrected to Death. Death and sheol gave up their dead. That is the resurrection of damnation. It is not to life it is to Death, and then the lake of fire. We are not talking about dead sinners.

So the elect during the Trumpets Thunders, the separation of sheep from goats. The harvest of wheat, and the burning up of tares. These people hand picked by the Lamb. These people who listened to the 144K, these people who died with the testimony of following the Lamb are dead physically. They are bodily raised physically meaning to the earth. Not glorified, but to an incorruptible body that is not part of the second death and lake of fire. These people will never die again. They died once physically, resurrected, but can never die the second time.

They have babies. Tell me one reason why they would not have babies if they live on the earth for 1000 years? If this does not match up with Revelation 20:4-6, why?

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

They were souls, they physically died. They were judged in verse 4. They were blessed, and given power over the second death, the lake of fire. They reigned on earth. Revelation 20:7-9

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for the battle. Their number is countless as the sand on the seashore;
9 and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

It is on earth, because the nations of earth, are deceived and come from all over the Land (earth) to fight Christ and those who cannot die. They do not even get close but fire from God consumes them.

Now. The resurrected people have babies. That is what happens now. That is what happens naturally in the next 1000 years. 30 generations later, there are even more people than are alive today. We can count them today. 7.7 billion or close. Yes that is equal to a lot of sand. God claims there will be even more than that by the end of the 1000 years. You claim God does not mean that. Well God let John write down those words that there would be millions of resurrected souls who physically died. They came back, judged, given incorruptible bodies, that had power over the second death. They also begin to have babies, and up to 40 generations of babies, because they did not have to deal with a sinful nature nor Satan the Adversary constantly loading them up with the guilt that comes with a sin nature.

You claim that at the Cross millions of dead people came back without a sin nature and have been having babies with sin nature humans and it has been for 1990 years instead of 1000. You claim Satan already ruled for 3.5 years and beheaded people and 1990 years ago, they were physically resurrected and with incorruptible bodies, have been having children with humans with a sinful nature. Except no one ever recorded that millions of dead people came back to life to prove your theology. St. Augustine had suspicions. But could not run any blood test to verify that some had a different bodies than normal humans. Saying there is not a future 1000 years, means you have to put millions of physically resurrected bodies, they are still alive today, living among us, having never died. They will eventually all show up in Jerusalem and force every one out of Isreal and then Satan will retaliate and God will consume Satan's armies with fire, and then Christ will leave earth and come back to usher in the new heavens and earth, after the GWT.

BABerean2 said:

If you have to try to debunk what God has said in Romans 9:6, and Romans 9:27, then we can all see what is necessary to make your doctrine work.


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson:

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baberean2,

You just twisted the truth and you have done more of wrong tactics to try and prove your doctrine than most I know.
You gave your argument and I gave the scripture and it’s context that proves you are not right.
Instead of coming back with a proper rebuttal of scriptural proof of what I said you twisted the truth with a backhanded accusation.
Now that is most grossly unfair to the nth degree.
Now come on be fair for a change. Jerrykelso

sovereigngrace said:

I did address it, and you full well know it. You just have no answer to what I wrote. The reader will see who is just throwing out unrelated references and who is quoting and exegeting the passages. This is a common Pretrib tactic. I refer you back to the detailed and avoided post.



Exactly. This arrives at the second coming.



I addressed this and you ducked and dived around it also. I refer you back to my avoided post that forbids your speculation.



2+2=4. not 22. Your deduction is wrong.



Peter knew the kingdom of heaven arrived with the King's first advent. We have been in the millennium/last days for 2000 years.



Jacob's troubles is historic. I showed you that. You also avoided that evidence, as is your pattern.



You misinterpret an Old Testament prophecy (Jeremiah 30) that expressly relates to the Babylonian exile, and apply it to some supposed Pretrib rapture, some alleged 7 years trib or a 3rd coming that is not remotely mentioned in the passage. This is how Pretrib hermeneutics work. They employ theological dubious colored rules. This shows us how bereft Pretrib is of biblical support.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.



Christ introduced that on the cross. Man has been there for 2000 years.



There is no favoritism under the new covenant, only under the old covenant. That is now eternally abolished. Pretrib is always fighting for the reintroduction of the same. You are trying to introduce OT nationalist principles into this new covenant international era. That does not work. You are forcing a square peg into a round hole.



Christ has already come to deliver Israel. They can still come and get saved and join the Church (God's only spiritual people). Christ the king has come, He is reigning at the right hand of majesty until His enemies are subjugated at His appearing.

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sovereign grace

1. Tell me what post you addressed Acts 1:6-7. Jerrykelso

Timtofly said:

Humans have babies. You claim I am making things up. If you want to deny that humans still have babies, go ahead. You make no sense. Babarean2, claims all are dead. That is what Revelation 19 declares. Revelation 20 says some are resurrected. It gives the criteria. Now you say no one dies at Armageddon, and no one is resurrected?

All humanity is dead at Armageddon. Not one of Adam's descendants escapes physical death. DEAD DEAD DEAD!!!

Then after that, that is after that, literally after that, Revelation 20 says the sheep, the wheat, those who died for their testimony as being of the Lamb.

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Your whole thesis is built upon a faulty supposition that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19 chronologically in time. That is an error. It is totally unsupported by other Scripture. In fact, it is forbidden by other Scripture. To argue this, you have to ignore/reject the various recaps in the book. So right away your theory falls apart. This is shown in your failure to support any of your claims with hard corroborating evidence. This is what the erroneous Left Behind novels do.

Those elected in the harvest. NOT THE CHURCH!!!

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Please check my thread: God's people (ekklesia) are one from the beginning

This shows that God has no children outside of His ekklesia since the beginning. You have to create another entity unknown to the NT text, and then attribute qualities to them that are unknown to Holy Scripture. There is no implementation of biblical hermeneutics involved. Private interpretation is suffice.

When Jesus comes the elect ekklesia are rescued and wicked are destroyed. Simple!!! There is no 3rd group that you invent to support your error.

Those who are beheaded for not worshipping Satan nor receiving the mark. Those people, Not The Church, are bodily resurrected. Not back into sin nature, NO!!! Does Revelation really have to spell out what a bodily resurrection is to your private specification? They already died physically, the old sinful nature body gone, back to dust burned up in the cleansing fire of the Trumpets and Thunders. They were harvested before Satan's 3.5 years. They literally had to die, because they were bodily resurrected. That is what death and resurrection do. If you are not resurrected to life, you are resurrected to Death. Death and sheol gave up their dead. That is the resurrection of damnation. It is not to life it is to Death, and then the lake of fire. We are not talking about dead sinners.

So the elect during the Trumpets Thunders, the separation of sheep from goats. The harvest of wheat, and the burning up of tares. These people hand picked by the Lamb. These people who listened to the 144K, these people who died with the testimony of following the Lamb are dead physically. They are bodily raised physically meaning to the earth. Not glorified, but to an incorruptible body that is not part of the second death and lake of fire. These people will never die again. They died once physically, resurrected, but can never die the second time.

They have babies. Tell me one reason why they would not have babies if they live on the earth for 1000 years? If this does not match up with Revelation 20:4-6, why?

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

They were souls, they physically died. They were judged in verse 4. They were blessed, and given power over the second death, the lake of fire. They reigned on earth. Revelation 20:7-9

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for the battle. Their number is countless as the sand on the seashore;
9 and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

It is on earth, because the nations of earth, are deceived and come from all over the Land (earth) to fight Christ and those who cannot die. They do not even get close but fire from God consumes them.

Now. The resurrected people have babies. That is what happens now. That is what happens naturally in the next 1000 years. 30 generations later, there are even more people than are alive today. We can count them today. 7.7 billion or close. Yes that is equal to a lot of sand. God claims there will be even more than that by the end of the 1000 years. You claim God does not mean that. Well God let John write down those words that there would be millions of resurrected souls who physically died. They came back, judged, given incorruptible bodies, that had power over the second death. They also begin to have babies, and up to 40 generations of babies, because they did not have to deal with a sinful nature nor Satan the Adversary constantly loading them up with the guilt that comes with a sin nature.

You claim that at the Cross millions of dead people came back without a sin nature and have been having babies with sin nature humans and it has been for 1990 years instead of 1000. You claim Satan already ruled for 3.5 years and beheaded people and 1990 years ago, they were physically resurrected and with incorruptible bodies, have been having children with humans with a sinful nature. Except no one ever recorded that millions of dead people came back to life to prove your theology. St. Augustine had suspicions. But could not run any blood test to verify that some had a different bodies than normal humans. Saying there is not a future 1000 years, means you have to put millions of physically resurrected bodies, they are still alive today, living among us, having never died. They will eventually all show up in Jerusalem and force every one out of Isreal and then Satan will retaliate and God will consume Satan's armies with fire, and then Christ will leave earth and come back to usher in the new heavens and earth, after the GWT.

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Who are these wicked who miss the catching away, are destroyed by Christ and then resurrected in incorruptible bodies to populate your millennium and who have the ability to procreate? Where are you getting this?

This is all fiction. You present no Scripture to support any of it. There is nothing biblical to address. Your teachers have taught you wrong.

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace

1. Tell me what post you addressed Acts 1:6-7. Jerrykelso

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Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

You just twisted the truth and you have done more of wrong tactics to try and prove your doctrine than most I know.
You gave your argument and I gave the scripture and it’s context that proves you are not right.
Instead of coming back with a proper rebuttal of scriptural proof of what I said you twisted the truth with a backhanded accusation.
Now that is most grossly unfair to the nth degree.
Now come on be fair for a change. Jerrykelso

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You never quote Scripture. You typically present list unrelated references and think we will all swallow that as evidence. That is not the way it works. Until Pretribbers bring a support text to the table that teaches their theory we have the right to reject it as man-made error.

sovereigngrace said:

Your whole thesis is built upon a faulty supposition that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19 chronologically in time. That is an error. It is totally unsupported by other Scripture. In fact, it is forbidden by other Scripture. To argue this, you have to ignore/reject the various recaps in the book. So right away your theory falls apart. This is shown in your failure to support any of your claims with hard corroborating evidence. This is what the erroneous Left Behind novels do.



Please check my thread: God's people (ekklesia) are one from the beginning

This shows that God has no children outside of His ekklesia since the beginning. You have to create another entity unknown to the NT text, and then attribute qualities to them that are unknown to Holy Scripture. There is no implementation of biblical hermeneutics involved. Private interpretation is suffice.

When Jesus comes the elect ekklesia are rescued and wicked are destroyed. Simple!!! There is no 3rd group that you invent to support your error.



Who are these wicked who miss the catching away, are destroyed by Christ and then resurrected in incorruptible bodies to populate your millennium and who have the ability to procreate? Where are you getting this?

This is all fiction. You present no Scripture to support any of it. There is nothing biblical to address. Your teachers have taught you wrong.

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You are the one that claims this all started in the 1st century. Not me. You are the one who is declaring who you think is wicked and who is the church. You change Revelation 20 to fit your theology.

When did these humans who physically died and resurrected in the first century leave the earth? According to you, not yet. They are still walking around with those who have not physically died. It is you who claim wicked people died and already bodily brought back to life. They live among us even after 1990 years, because they can never die again.

It is clearly spelled out in Revelation 20, and I gave you the verses. Why cannot you understand what Revelation 20 says?

It is the only witnessed mass bodily resurrection in the Bible, that you accept, yet you claim it happened 1990 years ago.

Do you have verses on a bodily resurrection?