Genesis and the Fall

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
On another message board, Catholic Answers Forums, they’re talking about the Fall and how the Catholic catechism says that the Bible uses figurative language to describe a primeval event.
How are us LCMS supposed to view all the various details in Genesis? I think we’re to view it all as literal, but is it permissive to believe in the details of Genesis as being figurative?
If not, how do we believe it all is literal when the story is so hard to believe? Or is this another case where it’s hard to believe because the events were supernatural, recorded because of that and we just aren’t used to experiencing things like that?
 
Last edited:

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If it didn’t happen literally, then the whole idea of how sin entered the world is wrong IMO.
How does the lack of a talking snake etc. affect the idea of how sin entered the world?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: tampasteve
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,196
7,287
Tampa
✟767,634.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see how believing the snake to be figurative, or that the whole event is figurative, would negate the lesson on how sin entered the world. The lesson is that people disobeyed God's command, and sin resulted. I have also read that the snake is a figurative for Satan, the tempter, not not an actual snake. Whether it is literal or figurative seems not so relevant to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roymond
Upvote 0

plain jayne

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
253
366
Louisiana
✟58,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How does the lack of a talking snake etc. affect the idea of how sin entered the world?
Do you believe in the talking donkey in Numbers 22:21-38? It says that God opened its mouth to speak to Balaam.

I believe it.

The serpent is not just a "talking snake". Genesis, the first book, says it was THE serpent. Revelation, the last book, says that THE serpent is the devil.

The devil opened the mouth of the snake or serpent and used it. The devil does have limited powers that God allows.

What is faith other than believing in God and his word and his Son when everything else worldly says "this can't happen".
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe in the talking donkey in Numbers 22:21-38? It says that God opened its mouth to speak to Balaam.

I believe it.

The serpent is not just a "talking snake". Genesis, the first book, says it was THE serpent. Revelation, the last book, says that THE serpent is the devil.

The devil opened the mouth of the snake or serpent and used it. The devil does have limited powers that God allows.

What is faith other than believing in God and his word and his Son when everything else worldly says "this can't happen".
I didn’t believe in the talking donkey when I first heard the story several months ago but since then my pastor explained to me that this was a supernatural event caused by God and I sort of believe it now.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't see how believing the snake to be figurative, or that the whole event is figurative, would negate the lesson on how sin entered the world. The lesson is that people disobeyed God's command, and sin resulted. I have also read that the snake is a figurative for Satan, the tempter, not not an actual snake. Whether it is literal or figurative seems not so relevant to me.
I’ve heard that the snake was an actual snake but the he was also Satan.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't see how believing the snake to be figurative, or that the whole event is figurative, would negate the lesson on how sin entered the world. The lesson is that people disobeyed God's command, and sin resulted. I have also read that the snake is a figurative for Satan, the tempter, not not an actual snake. Whether it is literal or figurative seems not so relevant to me.

I agree whether the snake is a figurative term or not is irrelevant.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't see how believing the snake to be figurative, or that the whole event is figurative, would negate the lesson on how sin entered the world. The lesson is that people disobeyed God's command, and sin resulted. I have also read that the snake is a figurative for Satan, the tempter, not not an actual snake. Whether it is literal or figurative seems not so relevant to me.

But according to the LCMS, it had to have been literal not figurative, I think.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,196
7,287
Tampa
✟767,634.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I’ve heard that the snake was an actual snake but the he was also Satan.
I think that part comes down to "we don't know for sure" it could be either way or neither. I have also heard that all of the animals in the garden spoke. Maybe, again, the scripture does not specify.

I'm not sure that part of the story really matters though. What matters is that God is showing us a glimpse on His will, the path of following Him or not. Whether it was an actual snake or Satan, or some combination I am not sure that it really matters. It certainly is not a matter of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,196
7,287
Tampa
✟767,634.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But according to the LCMS, it had to have been literal not figurative, I think.
Perhaps. But the question was if it is permissible according to the LCMS to see it another way, I think it is - but it would be best to run it by someone of authority. But I would be surprised to hear an LCMS minister say that one could not be LCMS if one saw this passage as figurative rather than literal.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps. But the question was if it is permissible according to the LCMS to see it another way, I think it is - but it would be best to run it by someone of authority. But I would be surprised to hear an LCMS minister say that one could not be LCMS if one saw this passage as figurative rather than literal.
I sent another email with that question, to my pastor. Man, I think all my questions must be wearing him out.

BTW, our church closed, then reopened. Then it closed again. Now it’s supposed to open again on the 30th. How are your churches handling being open vs closed?
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My pastor replied but didn’t actually answer my question which was can you still be LCMS if you interpret the talking snake as figurative. He said something like,
“The difficulty is that if you take all of the supernatural things in the Bible as figurative, you‘ve just eliminated the resurrection.
The snake is no different than the resurrection… they are all things that cannot be explained by natural science.”

I just replied and asked if while I’m struggling with this can I still be LCMS?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,196
7,287
Tampa
✟767,634.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
My pastor replied but didn’t actually answer my question which was can you still be LCMS if you interpret the talking snake as figurative. He said
“The challenge is that if you take all of the supernatural things in the Bible as figurative, you just eliminated the resurrection.
To me the snake is no different than the resurrection… they are all things that cannot be explained by natural science.”

I just replied and asked if while I’m struggling with this can I still be LCMS?
With all due respect to him, that is ridiculous. The resurrection and many other miracles and events in both the New Testament and Old Testament were witnessed by many people, some events such as this were witnessed by no one that wrote about it. The events depicted in the fall of man are from God's interaction with Moses directly as well as tradition passed down, so whether God meant it as literal or figurative is a reasonable question. We can believe it by faith, but not believing does not also mean we do not have faith.

The flood, the Miracles from Moses, the miracles in Daniel - these were all witnessed by many other people that could attest to them. The Gospels and miracles from Jesus, the resurrection, etc. were all witnessed by many, even thousands.

Those events are also not bearing on the Gospel message, which is where the salvific message comes from. Whether or not a snake spoke to Eve does not have bearing on Jesus's resurrection and the fulfillment of the prophesies about the messiah.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,196
7,287
Tampa
✟767,634.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I sent another email with that question, to my pastor. Man, I think all my questions must be wearing him out.

BTW, our church closed, then reopened. Then it closed again. Now it’s supposed to open again on the 30th. How are your churches handling being open vs closed?
We havn't closed back up, but attendance has been very small. Most people are still staying away from in person attendance. The serivce is adjusted to no singing (music only), no touching, etc. still no communion either.

Most churches here are about the same. The Catholic dioceses is having Mass, as well as the Eucharist (but only the Host, not wine).
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
With all due respect to him, that is ridiculous. The resurrection and many other miracles and events in both the New Testament and Old Testament were witnessed by many people, some events such as this were witnessed by no one that wrote about it. The events depicted in the fall of man are from God's interaction with Moses directly as well as tradition passed down, so whether God meant it as literal or figurative is a reasonable question. We can believe it by faith, but not believing does not also mean we do not have faith.

The flood, the Miracles from Moses, the miracles in Daniel - these were all witnessed by many other people that could attest to them. The Gospels and miracles from Jesus, the resurrection, etc. were all witnessed by many, even thousands.

Those events are also not bearing on the Gospel message, which is where the salvific message comes from. Whether or not a snake spoke to Eve does not have bearing on Jesus's resurrection and the fulfillment of the prophesies about the messiah.
I guess he’s not thinking in terms of the snake talking as not being witnessed but just that it’s one of many supernatural events in the Bible. In any case, I’m ok as long as I believe the Creed, which I do.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,348
646
Midwest
✟153,099.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
With all due respect to him, that is ridiculous.
Instead of saying it’s ridiculous, how about saying you just disagree with him? I mean he IS a trained pastor and we aren’t. And anyway, like I said, I believe the Creed and that’s what’s most important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roymond
Upvote 0