Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

BABerean2 said:

No, and neither is anyone else promised a piece of land on this sin-cursed earth after his Second Coming, based on race.
(See Titus 3:9 for Paul's warning about genealogies.)
You are attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

No, because the living nations are judged by Him in Matthew 25:31-46, at His Second Coming.

David's Seed is the King of the Jews.
See Matthew 1:1, and Acts of the Apostles 2:36.

Christ is the head. There will be no need for laws to rule over mortals after the judgment of the living, and the judgment of the dead.
(See 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18, for the timing.)
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baberean2,

1. Receiving the KoH cannot be based on race otherwise Israel wouldn’t have to be saved.
God would have said just because you are my chosen people and my lineage I will give you the land with no conditions or strings attached.
He would have given it to them in his earthly ministry if that was the case.
Why? Because they were looking for the kingdom because of there race and he wouldn’t do it.
This is the very reason he said in Romans 2 a real Jew is not one outwardly (race) but inwardly (salvation).
Salvation was never and is not now, and will never be based on race.
For you to say that is what dispensationalists believe is a disgrace to easy and plain comprehension.

2. The KoH land and throne and head of the nations is because Israel is the apple of his eye Psalms 17:8; Proverbs 7:2 and
Zechariah 2:8.
First and foremost it was promised to them by God forever but conditioned by all the nation being saved 1 Chronicles 28:1-7;2 Samuel 7:13-16.
It is there earthly calling because they were given the oracles of God Romans 3-1-2.
Also, the gifts and callings are without repentance Romans 11:29 meaning they will be saved and then they will be at the head of the nations because they were governed by natural laws and ruled by earthly men who were to be responsible to God for their administration.
There will be some laws out of the Old Covenant and some out of the New Covenant.
You have no say in this matter and cannot override God’s decision. So quit trying to.
This has nothing to do with being a dual Covenant in your context.

3. Titus 3:9 was speaking of endless genealogies was odd because Titus was gentile and not Jewish. There were still false prophets who tried to say that they were direct descendants of Abraham to use against them. Paul was not concerned about who there father was but instead was wanted him to concentrate on spreading the gospel. Judaizers always want to be legalistic to others about the details of the Mosaic law.

4. Matthew 25:31-46; judging nations not every person in the world for some are not nations such as tribes in the jungles; isles afar off etc. Isaiah 2:2-24; 66:19-21; Zechariah 8:23 especially Isaiah 66:19-21.

5. If there are no laws then how will the apostles judge the twelve tribes in the KoH? Matthew 28:19. They will also sit on 12 thrones which is a symbol of authority.
We are being trained now in the church age to reign in the KoH 2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 5:9-10 is future tense to reigning on the earth while the church is in Heaven. You are dreaming.

6. Your view is that the kingdom of 1000 years symbolic is now according scriptures like Acts 2:34-35. The Lord did go to the throne in Heaven at his ascension. Until I make thy foes thy footstool. It couldn’t be when Christ took the keys to death and hell because that was before he ascended.
His foes will be done away with at the end of the Kingdom of 1000 years for he must reign till he hath put all his enemies under his feet 1 Corinthians 15:25-28.
Your no law kingdom is unfounded and makes no sense.
The 1000 years doesn’t start till after Armageddon Revelation 20:4. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

If you think Christ cannot find those in remote jungles, at His Second Coming, you need to read your Bible again.


No matter how deep the cave, they will not escape His judgment.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,


Keep on ignoring the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18, if you want the Premill doctrine to work.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
You are arguing with Paul, instead of with me.

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baberean2,

1. Why do you falsify statements I said?
I never said that Christ couldn’t find those in the jungles.
I didn’t say that those in the caves that are mentioned wouldn’t receive judgement.
You owe me an apology because you know I didn’t say that.

2. Isaiah 66:18-19; For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see my glory.
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Paul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the isles afar off, neither have seen my glory, that have not heard of my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the gentiles.
Neither have seen my glory means they didn’t know Christ came back.
Those that will see Christ will be local to Jerusalem otherwise they would have known of it.
If you disagree tell me what you think it means for those that will have not seen his glory or heard of his fame in that day.

Ignoring the truth is what you are doing. Arguing with Paul would be you not me.
You just give talking points but you cannot rebut the scriptures I gave and the context.
I try my best to address properly every main scripture you give. You on the other hand pick and choose what point you want to address and ignore the rest.
I’m sorry, but that is not right to continue to be so unfair and you know it so please quit doing it. Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

"4. Matthew 25:31-46; judging nations not every person in the world for some are not nations such as tribes in the jungles; isles afar off etc. Isaiah 2:2-22; 66:19-21; Zechariah 8:23 especially Isaiah 66:19-21."


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baberean2,

BABerean2 said:

"4. Matthew 25:31-46; judging nations not every person in the world for some are not nations such as tribes in the jungles; isles afar off etc. Isaiah 2:2-22; 66:19-21; Zechariah 8:23 especially Isaiah 66:19-21."


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baberean2,

It’s good to see you agree with me. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

I do not agree with you.

I am just quoting what you said, because you claimed I misrepresented what you said.


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baberean2,

1. You are the one that is trying to convince me that everyone on earth will see Christ coming to earth at the second coming.
Isaiah 66:18-19 proves you wrong.
All you are agreeing on is that islands aren’t nations.
This proves at times you take one true statement to cover up the fact of the true context that you don’t believe and don’t want anyone to know that you don’t.
That is wrong and holds no credibility. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

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baberean2,

1. The Queen of Sheba was said to be from Ethiopia or Saudi Arabia or Nubia where many women ruled.
She heard of Solomons fame 1 Kings 10:1-3; 2 Chronicles 9:1-2; Luke 11:31.

2. Isaiah 66:18-19;
God will gather all nations and tongues and they shall come and see his glory in Israel.
The Jews that make it through the tribulation will be sent out to those who had not heard of Christ coming back or who had not seen him v 19, 11:9, 52:7, Zechariah 13:9.

3. Revelation 1:7 every is used such as all as a syndenoche meaning part of the whole.
One could say I’ve traveled all the world and not mean every single country.
We have Tv and satellite in all the earth as far as basic regions but still some live where they don’t know what a Tv is and the whole globe is occupied in a much more known way than in Jesus day.

4. The point that Jesus was making was the sin of Israel was so great that it put them to shame because Nineveh repented and the Queen of the south (Sheba) would judgement for she came a long ways to seek Solomon’s wisdom.
An example of how great their sin was and Jesus was greater than both Jonah and Solomon.
Of course this didn’t actually happen.
Quit trying to sabotage scripture.
You haven’t proved anything except that you know how to contradict the word of God.
Such tactics become annoying after while and not amusing.
One phrase doesn’t make a context and you should know better. This is why you will keep coming to the same wrong conclusions. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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baberean2,

1. What’s this have to do with the price of eggs in China? Nothing!!!!!!!
And it has nothing to do with the context of some not hearing of Christ fame or seeing his glory at the second coming arrival. Isaiah 66:18-19.
You think if you keep posting whatever something will stick but it won’t. Quit playing games. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. The Queen of Sheba was said to be from Ethiopia or Saudi Arabia or Nubia where many women ruled.
She heard of Solomons fame 1 Kings 10:1-3; 2 Chronicles 9:1-2; Luke 11:31.

2. Isaiah 66:18-19;
God will gather all nations and tongues and they shall come and see his glory in Israel.
The Jews that make it through the tribulation will be sent out to those who had not heard of Christ coming back or who had not seen him v 19, 11:9, 52:7, Zechariah 13:9.

3. Revelation 1:7 every is used such as all as a syndenoche meaning part of the whole.
One could say I’ve traveled all the world and not mean every single country.
We have Tv and satellite in all the earth as far as basic regions but still some live where they don’t know what a Tv is and the whole globe is occupied in a much more known way than in Jesus day.

4. The point that Jesus was making was the sin of Israel was so great that it put them to shame because Nineveh repented and the Queen of the south (Sheba) would judgement for she came a long ways to seek Solomon’s wisdom.
An example of how great their sin was and Jesus was greater than both Jonah and Solomon.
Of course this didn’t actually happen.
Quit trying to sabotage scripture.
You haven’t proved anything except that you know how to contradict the word of God.
Such tactics become annoying after while and not amusing.
One phrase doesn’t make a context and you should know better. This is why you will keep coming to the same wrong conclusions. Jerry kelso

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Baberean is correct.

You have failed to provide anything on this forum to support Pretrib apart from personal opinion and wild speculations. You have nothing in the Book, and simply depend upon man's teaching to prove your doctrine.

You previously admitted:

1. Nobody has said there is a literal plain statement that says there is a pre-trib rapture in Revelation.

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Biblewriter concedes:

Nobody has said there is a literal plain statement that says there is a pre-trib rapture in Revelation.

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Iamlamad admits:

iamlamad said:

I told you: John never saw the rapture. It is not mentioned as a "rapture" in Revelation, nor did John write anything about a catching up of the church.

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He continues:

Just because John did not see it does not mean it did not happen! John saw a vision and in that vision saw EXACTLY what God wanted and chose to show Him. It most certainly does not mean the rapture is bogus.

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He adds:

Paul was the only writer who received revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore it is critical in forming end time doctrine for the church.

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He continues:

Why people look for the rapture anywhere but in Paul's writings amaze me. We are to be judged by Paul's gospel and we will be caught up by Paul's rapture.

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You made the Postrib case for us. That should have been the end of the debate. After all, Pretrib is bereft on any scriptural support.

sovereigngrace said:

Baberean is correct.

You have failed to provide anything on this forum to support Pretrib apart from personal opinion and wild speculations. You have nothing in the Book, and simply depend upon man's teaching to prove your doctrine.

You previously admitted:



Biblewriter concedes:



Iamlamad admits:



He continues:



He adds:



He continues:



You made the Postrib case for us. That should have been the end of the debate. After all, Pretrib is bereft on any scriptural support.

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sovereign grace,

Sorry, but all of you are wrong. There is no literal statement that says there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture.
You have proved nothing with that statement.

2. 1Timothy 4:15-17 shows the rapture but doesn’t give the time factor in that one verse.
It is not all three so you have to go deeper into scriptures and their contexts to put it together.

3. You believe that just because Christ is coming from Heaven it automatically is the second coming in Revelation 19:11-15.
That is not necessarily true because Thessalonians is Jesus bringing the dead from Heaven with him and resurrecting them with living believers to be with the Lord. Titus calls this the blessed hope.
You want to compare it with the Second Coming and the First resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as happening right then.
This is wrong for two reasons.
In 1 Thessalonians 4 he only brings the dead from Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-15 he brings all the armies of Heaven which includes all believers from Adam’s day to the tribulation saint who were all martyrs that didn’t take the mark of the beast Revelation 20:4.
The First resurrection will be over before the 7 vials Revelation 15:1-2; 16:1-2 is reserved for the beast kingdom worshippers only.

4. In conclusion, you are just trying to match it up but, your position fails because of wrong hermeneutics. Now you can try to rebut the scriptural proof I gave but you better hope it’s pretty convincing cause so far you’re not caring too good. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

Sorry, but all of you are wrong. There is no literal statement that says there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture.
You have proved nothing with that statement.

2. 1 Timothy 4:15-17 shows the rapture but doesn’t give the time factor in that one verse.
It is not all three so you have to go deeper into scriptures and their contexts to put it together.

3. You believe that just because Christ is coming from Heaven it automatically is the second coming in Revelation 19:11-15.
That is not necessarily true because Thessalonians is Jesus bringing the dead from Heaven with him and resurrecting them with living believers to be with the Lord. Titus calls this the blessed hope.
You want to compare it with the Second Coming and the First resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as happening right then.
This is wrong for two reasons.
In 1 Thessalonians 4 he only brings the dead from Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-15 he brings all the armies of Heaven which includes all believers from Adam’s day to the tribulation saint who were all martyrs that didn’t take the mark of the beast Revelation 20:4.
The First resurrection will be over before the 7 vials Revelation 15:1-2; 16:1-2 is reserved for the beast kingdom worshippers only.

4. In conclusion, you are just trying to match it up but, your position fails because of wrong hermeneutics. Now you can try to rebut the scriptural proof I gave but you better hope it’s pretty convincing cause so far you’re not caring too good. Jerry kelso

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Not so! There is one first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Secondly, every passage pertaining to the second coming shows a general resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous, followed by a general judgment. The sheep and the goats are before the same throne at the same time. There is no 7 years in-between. There is no 1,000 years in-between. It is an all-consummating event.

The marriage of the Lamb in Rev 19 is when we the Church are joined with Christ forever to enjoy unbroken fellowship. Revelation 19:11-15, 1 Timothy 4:15-17 and 1 Thessalonians 4 all agree that the coming of the Lord is climactic. They disallow the Pretrib and Premil theories. There is a literal resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind in the future on the last day (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Pretribbers have to force their supposed 7 years trib in everywhere in Scripture where the Holy Spirt forgot.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so! There is one first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Secondly, every passage pertaining to the second coming shows a general resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous, followed by a general judgment. The sheep and the goats are before the same throne at the same time. There is no 7 years in-between. There is no 1,000 years in-between. It is an all-consummating event.

The marriage of the Lamb in Rev 19 is when we the Church are joined with Christ forever to enjoy unbroken fellowship. Revelation 19:11-15, 1 Timothy 4:15-17 and 1 Thessalonians 4 all agree that the coming of the Lord is climactic. They disallow the Pretrib and Premil theories. There is a literal resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind in the future on the last day (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Pretribbers have to force their supposed 7 years trib in everywhere in Scripture where the Holy Spirt forgot.

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sovereigngrace,

1. Christ is the first fruits of them that slept, firstborn of the dead, and first begotten of the dead.

2. Christ is not physically resurrecting in Revelation 20:6.
Christ did not rise from the dead first for he raised Lazarus in his earthly ministry. But he prophesied he would be the resurrection and the life forever John 11:25.
V24 Martha said, that her brother would arise the last day.
The last day was the resurrection from the dead which was an Old Testament doctrine that is not valid in the church age.
Hebrews 6:1: they were to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ and go on to perfection which was the New Covenant. That is the whole theme of Hebrews, contrasting the Old and New Covenants.
The Old Testament saints only knew of the resurrection of the dead, nothing about the rapture 1 Corinthians 15:50-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

3. In the Book of Revelation there are no Earthly and Heavenly believers that are raptured at the same time in the tribulation or at the Second Coming.

4. Revelation 6:9-11; the first martyrs are called the souls under the altar.

5. Revelation 7:1-8 are raptured in

6. Revelation 14:1-5 to the Mount Sion which is the Heavenly Mount Sion.
This is in the first part of the second half of the tribulation.

7. Revelation 7:13-14; John didn’t know who these tribulation saints were!
If it would have been the church age saints he would have known. This proves the church doesn’t go through the tribulation. This is why post trib rapture is incorrect.

8. Revelation 11:1-12 the Two Witnesses who cannot be the church as I’ve already explained are two men and they are raptured but there is no living company raised with them. Some believe they are raptured in the First half and others have the Second half. It doesn’t matter either because of no living believers.

9. Revelation 15:1-3 are the last believers who don’t take the Mark of the Beast or the number of his name etc. These are the same believers in
10. Revelation 20:4-6 in the First Resurrection which takes place before the 7 vials Revelation 16:1.
So you are the one who is trying to coerce and force the post tribulation rapture and you cannot do it.

11. The First Resurrection covers all believers since Christ the first fruits; every man in his order.

12. The second resurrection called the Second Death is reserved for all sinners
an actual 1000 years after the First resurrection is complete.
They will be resurrected and judged for their evil works at the GWTJ Revelation 20:11-15.

13. All the scriptures you gave are not what you think.
Matthew 10:15; 12:36; the Day of judgement is the Second Coming. The First resurrection of believers happens before the 7 vials Revelation 15:1-3; 16:1-2.
Matthew 16:27; the son of man coming in his glory is the judgement of the nations Matthew 25:31-46. He has to set up the kingdom first.
Rewarding every man according to his works, not according to the age in which they lived in.
John 5:21-30: v 21;25 the dead will be raised.
V 27 the son executes judgement
V28 the hour is coming when the resurrection of believers and unbelievers will happen but they are a literal 1000 years apart Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:5.
John 6:39,40,54, are all the last which I have already explained.
John 10:42? Nothing there.
John 11:21-27; Resurrection of the dead again.
John 12:44-48; Jesus came not to judge the world in his earthly ministry but will at the end of the 1000 years for that is when it happens to all sinners. That is their last day.
There is no John 17:30-32 or John 24:15.
Romans 2:4-8; 14:10 are the Judgement of the Believers Works that happen between the rapture and the Second Coming Luke 14:14. Resurrection of the Just would have to be the last day of those who sing the song of Moses and the lamb which are Jews Revelation 15:1-3. This happens before the 7 vials Revelation 16:1-2. This means in the latter half of the tribulation in time for the marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.
1 Corinthians 3:6-8; 11-15 happens between the middle of the tribulation and the Second Coming Revelation 11:18.
This is all I can address tonight. I have been moving so I am very tired. I will look at the other scriptures tomorrow. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

You believe that just because Christ is coming from Heaven it automatically is the second coming in Revelation 19:11-15.
That is not necessarily true

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1. Christ is currently sitting at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).

2. Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool (Hebrews 10:13).

3. Christ reigns until his enemies are put under his feet (1 Corinthians 15:25).

4. Since Christ must both be seated and reign until the same condition of his enemies being put under his feet; he is in the seated/reigning position until this condition is met.

5. Christ will return at some point in the future, he will no longer be in the seated/reigning position, and his enemies will have been put under his feet at the time.

Doesn’t this mean that Revelation 19:11-15 has to be the second coming?

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Christ is the first fruits of them that slept, firstborn of the dead, and first begotten of the dead.

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If that is the case (and it is) then we are in the millennium/Satan's little season era.

2. Christ is not physically resurrecting in Revelation 20:6.
Christ did not rise from the dead first for he raised Lazarus in his earthly ministry. But he prophesied he would be the resurrection and the life forever John 11:25.
V24 Martha said, that her brother would arise the last day.
The last day was the resurrection from the dead which was an Old Testament doctrine that is not valid in the church age.
Hebrews 6:1: they were to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ and go on to perfection which was the New Covenant. That is the whole theme of Hebrews, contrasting the Old and New Covenants.
The Old Testament saints only knew of the resurrection of the dead, nothing about the rapture 1 Corinthians 15:50-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

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The catching away/resurrection happens when Jesus comes. Then the end! 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Firstly, the usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The repeated usage of the word “for” in this reading demonstrates what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

Christ, the OT prophets and the NT writers repeatedly enlarge on a truth or recap a matter when relaying truth. This is a common way of teaching. That is all Paul is doing here. After explaining the finality of the second coming he then explains that he will reign until the last enemy is subdued.

Even though it might not seem it at times, God has got his providential hand on our lives. Moment by moment he watches over us. With a Father’s eye He sovereignly brings circumstances and situations into our lives at the right time in order to conform us unto His purposes. When we disobey, He takes the rod of correction to the seat of our understanding.

Second, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Premils delay the moment when “all things shall be subdued unto him” by 1,000 years, holding that “the bondage of corruption” with all its awful facets like sin death and decay is only eliminated 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. They therefore postpone the final “put down” of all “all rule and all authority and power” till after the Gog / Magog battle in Revelation 20, where they insist Christ finally removes all wickedness from the earth. However, that is not what is being intimated in this passage. This reading actually locates all this at the Lord’s “coming.” It is there that “all things shall be subdued unto him” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power” (1 Corinthians 15:24).

Third, Scripture repeatedly presents a truth and then explains or enlarges upon that truth. After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness. This comes at the second coming of the Lord.

Paul is simply reinforcing the thought that he just stated about the climactic coming of Christ. It is the time “when he shall have put down (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Corinthians 15 verses 24 and 28 repeat the same all-consummating truth.

For Christ to be reigning over His enemies does not in any way suggest these foes are finally and effectively subjugated unto the Lord. No! No more than the rebellious subjects of an earthly monarch who are determined to overthrow the rule of that leader would considered not under the rule of that said king or queen. Whether they like it or not and whether they believe it or not they are subject to the ruler and his laws.

jerry kelso said:

3. In the Book of Revelation there are no Earthly and Heavenly believers that are raptured at the same time in the tribulation or at the Second Coming.

4. Revelation 6:9-11; the first martyrs are called the souls under the altar.

5. Revelation 7:1-8 are raptured in

6. Revelation 14:1-5 to the Mount Sion which is the Heavenly Mount Sion.
This is in the first part of the second half of the tribulation.

7. Revelation 7:13-14; John didn’t know who these tribulation saints were!
If it would have been the church age saints he would have known. This proves the church doesn’t go through the tribulation. This is why post trib rapture is incorrect.

8. Revelation 11:1-12 the Two Witnesses who cannot be the church as I’ve already explained are two men and they are raptured but there is no living company raised with them. Some believe they are raptured in the First half and others have the Second half. It doesn’t matter either because of no living believers.

9. Revelation 15:1-3 are the last believers who don’t take the Mark of the Beast or the number of his name etc. These are the same believers in
10. Revelation 20:4-6 in the First Resurrection which takes place before the 7 vials Revelation 16:1.
So you are the one who is trying to coerce and force the post tribulation rapture and you cannot do it.

11. The First Resurrection covers all believers since Christ the first fruits; every man in his order.

12. The second resurrection called the Second Death is reserved for all sinners
an actual 1000 years after the First resurrection is complete.
They will be resurrected and judged for their evil works at the GWTJ Revelation 20:11-15.

13. All the scriptures you gave are not what you think.
Matthew 10:15; 12:36; the Day of judgement is the Second Coming. The First resurrection of believers happens before the 7 vials Revelation 15:1-3; 16:1-2.
Matthew 16:27; the son of man coming in his glory is the judgement of the nations Matthew 25:31-46. He has to set up the kingdom first.
Rewarding every man according to his works, not according to the age in which they lived in.
John 5:21-30: v 21;25 the dead will be raised.
V 27 the son executes judgement
V28 the hour is coming when the resurrection of believers and unbelievers will happen but they are a literal 1000 years apart Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:5.
John 6:39,40,54, are all the last which I have already explained.
John 10:42? Nothing there.
John 11:21-27; Resurrection of the dead again.
John 12:44-48; Jesus came not to judge the world in his earthly ministry but will at the end of the 1000 years for that is when it happens to all sinners. That is their last day.
There is no John 17:30-32 or John 24:15.
Romans 2:4-8; 14:10 are the Judgement of the Believers Works that happen between the rapture and the Second Coming Luke 14:14. Resurrection of the Just would have to be the last day of those who sing the song of Moses and the lamb which are Jews Revelation 15:1-3. This happens before the 7 vials Revelation 16:1-2. This means in the latter half of the tribulation in time for the marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10.
1 Corinthians 3:6-8; 11-15 happens between the middle of the tribulation and the Second Coming Revelation 11:18.
This is all I can address tonight. I have been moving so I am very tired. I will look at the other scriptures tomorrow. Jerry kelso

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The Church is on earth right up until the one-and-only future coming of Jesus Christ. Then comes the end of the age/world.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. We are therefore looking at true believers in Christ.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His Coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

grafted branch said:

1. Christ is currently sitting at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).

2. Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool (Hebrews 10:13).

3. Christ reigns until his enemies are put under his feet (1 Corinthians 15:25).

4. Since Christ must both be seated and reign until the same condition of his enemies being put under his feet; he is in the seated/reigning position until this condition is met.

5. Christ will return at some point in the future, he will no longer be in the seated/reigning position, and his enemies will have been put under his feet at the time.

Doesn’t this mean that Revelation 19:11-15 has to be the second coming?

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graftedbranch,

1. I said that 19:11-15 is the Second Coming.
Post tribbers believe the rapture is at the Second Coming and pre tribbers don’t.
I was just saying that If they see a passage of Christ coming back they automatically have to associate it with
the Second Coming and that is not true.

2. Those passages are not in context.
Christ sits in the right hand in the Father but he is ever interceding at the mercy seat Hebrews 8:1-6.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:25 says: For he must reign till he hath put all his enemies under his reign.
Verse 26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
He has to physically reign for a 1000 years after the tribulation on earth. This is known at the millennial kingdom.
The false prophet and the beast are a literal 1000 years apart for they are thrown into the Lake of Fire before Satan is thrown into the bottomless pit for a literal 1000 years.
Death will be after the 1000 years and the last battle from Gog and Magog and the 4 quarters of the earth which is the last rebellion Revelation 20:7-10 and the GWTJ in Revelation 20:11-15 death will be destroyed. Then God will be all in all and this will be the New Heaven and the New Earth Revelation 21. Jerry Kelso