LDS Is grace a blessing?

He is the way · Aug 18, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
1 John 4
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He blessed us before we had faith or had done anything for Him!

Ephesians 4
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Oh, how I love Jesus
Because He first loved me!

Jesus LOVES everyone, but not everyone LOVES Jesus:

(New Testament | John 14:15 - 16)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

He is the way · Aug 18, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Who gave us faith? Did we pay for it ourselves? Do unbelievers have faith?

Or are those who have been given faith the ones who obey Him?

We gain living faith through works:

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 26)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rescued One · Aug 18, 2020

He is the way said:
Jesus LOVES everyone, but not everyone LOVES Jesus.

We love him! 1 John 4:19 That does not say that everyone loves Jesus. And it does not say that Jesus loves everyone.

Psalm 5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Rescued One · Aug 18, 2020

He is the way said:
We gain living faith through works:

NO! God starts and completes the work HE began in us!

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Andrewn · Aug 18, 2020

He is the way said:
We gain living faith through works:

I'm not a Calvinist, but even for me this is pushing the truth way too far. I can agree that obedience and holiness are necessary evidence of our love for Christ and God. But they're evidence of our faith and trust and Jesus, not the other way around. Your statement is putting the cart in front of the horse.

The verses you quoted from James say nothing about works leading to faith. They're talking about demons who believe that Christ exists but do not trust or love Him or show love to people.

He is the way · Aug 18, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
We love him! 1 John 4:19 That does not say that everyone loves Jesus. And it does not say that Jesus loves everyone.

Psalm 5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Proverbs 12:22
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

As I said: "not everyone LOVES Jesus". Then don't LOVE Him enough to keep His commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

That being said Jesus LOVED everyone enough that we will all be resurrected because of Him:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:22)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

He is the way · Aug 18, 2020

Andrewn said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but even for me this is pushing the truth way too far. I can agree that obedience and holiness are necessary evidence of our love for Christ and God. But they're evidence of our faith and trust and Jesus, not the other way around. Your statement is putting the cart in front of the horse.

The verses you quoted from James say nothing about works leading to faith. They're talking about demons who believe that Christ exists but do not trust or love Him or show love to people.

They do say that dead works will not save us. God knows the heart of those who LOVE Him

(New Testament | Romans 8:27 - 30)

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Works of righteousness are very important to the Lord:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 11:18 - 19)

18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.
19 As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rescued One · Aug 18, 2020

He is the way said:
As I said: "not everyone LOVES Jesus". Then don't LOVE Him enough to keep His commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

That being said Jesus LOVED everyone enough that we will all be resurrected because of Him:

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

He is the way · Aug 18, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes that is correct. We should fear God and keep His commandments:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Andrewn · Aug 19, 2020

He is the way said:
Works of righteousness are very important to the Lord:

I don't disagree with this. But you can't say that works lead to faith. It's the other way around. You trust God first and that leads to works of charity. Also, note that the Greek "pistis" usually translated "faith" can mean "faithfulness" and is occasionally translated that way.

Faith / pistis can mean belief (such as in the case of demons in James), or trust (which is the most common meaning), or faithfulness (which is an important meaning that is often missed and implies works of charity).

But we do not gain faith through works, it's the other way around.

He is the way · Aug 19, 2020

Andrewn said:
I don't disagree with this. But you can't say that works lead to faith. It's the other way around. You trust God first and that leads to works of charity. Also, note that the Greek "pistis" usually translated "faith" can mean "faithfulness" and is occasionally translated that way.

Faith / pistis can mean belief (such as in the case of demons in James), or trust (which is the most common meaning), or faithfulness (which is an important meaning that is often missed and implies works of charity).

But we do not gain faith through works, it's the other way around.

People do show their faith and our LOVE through works. Jesus pointed out that LOVE comes about through service. When asked who is our neighbor Jesus gave the story of the good Samaritan. Faith and LOVE are not passive, both require doing something. Faith and LOVE are only dead when we see the need and do nothing about it. That is why James said we show our faith by works. So how do people show their LOVE for their children, their family, their God, and their neighbor? Being a Christian means that people are willing to stand up for and glorify God. Works and faith go together, not one before the other. Works and LOVE also go together.

Rescued One · Aug 23, 2020

He is the way said:
People do show their faith and our LOVE through works. Jesus pointed out that LOVE comes about through service.

Scripture please.

He is the way said:
When asked who is our neighbor Jesus gave the story of the good Samaritan. Faith and LOVE are not passive, both require doing something.

Both result in doing something! We don't give ourselves faith and love. They are gifts of God.

He is the way said:
Faith and LOVE are only dead when we see the need and do nothing about it.

Doing nothing is the result of no faith in Christ. Yet who are you to judge?

He is the way said:
That is why James said we show our faith by works.

I don't disagree. Men aren't omniscient. Seeing is believing for nonbelievers. God sees everything and knows everything! He knows each one his sheep!

He is the way said:
So how do people show their LOVE for their children, their family, their God, and their neighbor? Being a Christian means that people are willing to stand up for and glorify God. Works and faith go together, not one before the other. Works and LOVE also go together.

Matthew 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Faith results in good works. God knows that the faithless have no interest in pleasing Him.

He is the way · Aug 23, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Scripture please.

Both result in doing something! We don't give ourselves faith and love. They are gifts of God.

Doing nothing is the result of no faith in Christ. Yet who are you to judge?

I don't disagree. Men aren't omniscient. Seeing is believing for nonbelievers. God sees everything and knows everything! He knows each one his sheep!

Matthew 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Faith results in good works. God knows that the faithless have no interest in pleasing Him.

The story of the good Samaritan is the story of how genuine LOVE works through service to others and here is a good scripture that also states this concept:

(New Testament | James 1:25 - 27)

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

We are indeed shown how service is LOVE. What did the rich man do for Lazarus? What should the rich man have done for Lazarus? There was another rich man and his story is much different:

(New Testament | Luke 19:2 - 9)

2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchæus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchæus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Therefore the people misjudged a charitable man. You said: "We don't give ourselves faith and love. They are gifts of God." Scripture please.

You also said: "Doing nothing is the result of no faith in Christ. Yet who are you to judge?" There are many people who do not have faith in Christ yet they do good things. The story of the good Samaritan is an example of this. I am not judging, the Bible makes it clear what we are to do. God's prophets have never been liked by the people. Jesus said they kill the prophets:

(New Testament | Matthew 23:29 - 37)

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

It is no wonder that people hated Joseph Smith and killed him.

Rescued One · Aug 23, 2020

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where is Jesus' love in resurrecting the wicked and then destroying both body and soul in hell? Resurrection without eternal life is punishment; they are the goats!

He is the way said:
You also said: "Doing nothing is the result of no faith in Christ. Yet who are you to judge?" There are many people who do not have faith in Christ yet they do good things. The story of the good Samaritan is an example of this. I am not judging, the Bible makes it clear what we are to do. God's prophets have never been liked by the people.

Who says God didn't cause the Samaritan to do good just as God made wicked Pharoah let the Iraelites go? Our hearts by nature are wicked unless God changes them.

Read Ezekiel 36:26.

Common grace is when God gives rain and harvest to sinners who don't have salvation.

Rescued One · Aug 23, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "We don't give ourselves faith and love. They are gifts of God." Scripture please.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Andrewn · Aug 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Yes that is correct. We should fear God and keep His commandments:

Mat 10:28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Aren’t two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s consent. 30 But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

“Why would Jesus tell his followers not to be afraid, then to be afraid, then not to be afraid again, all in the space of a few sentences?”

The famous Anglican bishop and scholar NT Wright asks this question and provides the answer:

“Some have seen ‘the one who can cast into Gehenna as YHWH, but this is unrealistic. Jesus did not, to be sure, perceive Israel’s God as a kindly liberal godfather who would never hurt a fly, let alone send anyone to Gehenna. But again and again – not least in the very next verse of this paragraph – Israel’s God is portrayed as the creator and sustainer, one who can be lovingly trusted in all circumstances, not one who waits with a large stick to beat anyone who steps out of line. Rather, here we have a redefinition of the battle in terms of the identification of the real enemy. The one who can kill the body is the imagined enemy, Rome. Who then is the real enemy? Surely not Israel’s own God. The real enemy is the accuser, the satan.”

This is the same interpretation provided in the Orthodox Study Bible. So, yes Jesus loves everybody.

He is the way · Aug 24, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where is Jesus' love in resurrecting the wicked and then destroying both body and soul in hell? Resurrection without eternal life is punishment; they are the goats!

Who says God didn't cause the Samaritan to do good just as God made wicked Pharoah let the Iraelites go? Our hearts by nature are wicked unless God changes them.

Read Ezekiel 36:26.

Common grace is when God gives rain and harvest to sinners who don't have salvation.

Who says God made the Samaritan do good? Samaritans were not Christians. We choose to be good are evil:

(Old Testament | Joshua 24:14 - 17)

14 ¶ Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

He is the way · Aug 24, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

These scriptures are not about gifts, they are about blessings given to those who LOVE God and obey Him. It is up to each of us to do as we are asked to do:

(New Testament | Matthew 11:28 - 30)

28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus Christ asks everyone to come unto Him.

He is the way · Aug 24, 2020

Andrewn said:
Mat 10:28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Aren’t two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s consent. 30 But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

“Why would Jesus tell his followers not to be afraid, then to be afraid, then not to be afraid again, all in the space of a few sentences?”

The famous Anglican bishop and scholar NT Wright asks this question and provides the answer:

“Some have seen ‘the one who can cast into Gehenna as YHWH, but this is unrealistic. Jesus did not, to be sure, perceive Israel’s God as a kindly liberal godfather who would never hurt a fly, let alone send anyone to Gehenna. But again and again – not least in the very next verse of this paragraph – Israel’s God is portrayed as the creator and sustainer, one who can be lovingly trusted in all circumstances, not one who waits with a large stick to beat anyone who steps out of line. Rather, here we have a redefinition of the battle in terms of the identification of the real enemy. The one who can kill the body is the imagined enemy, Rome. Who then is the real enemy? Surely not Israel’s own God. The real enemy is the accuser, the satan.”

This is the same interpretation provided in the Orthodox Study Bible. So, yes Jesus loves everybody.

Yes we need to be afraid if Satan, Jesus said:

(New Testament | Luke 22:31)

31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Jesus does LOVE all of us and wants the best for all of us, but He will not force us. We have our own agency and He will not take that away.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:35 - 39)

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;
37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;
38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

Rescued One · Aug 25, 2020

He is the way said:
These scriptures are not about gifts, they are about blessings given to those who LOVE God and obey Him. It is up to each of us to do as we are asked to do:

Every single gift we receive is a blessing! He died for us while we were sinners!

When did God ever give a gift that wasn't perfect?

Life isn't about earning a given number of merit badges and becoming an eagle scout!

Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

We are not authors of our own salvation!

Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

How many understand and seek after God?

LDS Is grace a blessing?

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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