What was reformed?

That depends on what is meant by "true," don't you agree?

b4jesustoday said:

do accept what the Albigenses, Anabaptists and others believe? these are heretics with false doctrines the Albigenses were duelist god of Good spiritual god of evil material not exactly good Christians

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b4jesustoday said:

The church condemns heretics the state executes justice! Elijah killed the false prophets of Baal!

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b4jesustoday said:

Without a central authority the head of the church on earth and reading the Bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that’s what you have! not unity and sound doctrine

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- It may be acceptable to you to see opponents of the popes burned at the stake. It's not acceptable to God. Don't say the state executes justice bec the state at that time represented the popes and the charges were not civil but spiritual.

- The popes even went farther and condemned good Catholics to burning in purgatory until their relatives paid sums of money to get the dead into heaven.

- The popes convinced people that they could not be saved without deeds designed to serve and enrich the papacy such as donating property, pilgrimage to the Vatican, and several other ways to earn merit so they can be saved.

Was that system a representation of God's truth? Could Satan himself think of a worse system?

The Reformation was instrumental in correcting papal abuse, mainly by stating the obvious, "That justification is by faith alone."

Sure, "sola scriptura" led to errors and different interpretations led to sectarianism. But all the errors of the Reformation are a panacea compared to the Spiritual Dictatorship of the popes, which is a worse than the worst political dictators in history.

b4jesustoday said:

How can there be more that one true church?

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Protestants believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church, as per the Nicene Creed.

Which reformation? Are we talking about when protestantism started or the 5,000+ times they reformed?

b4jesustoday said:

What was reformed?
What was the authority for the reformation? Or
Where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

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There was always a small remnant that kept the purity of the Gospel alive. Though it was suppressed for the most part, it remained in the hearts of those men. The reformation I believe is a protest against the RCC to clean things up however it caused a division instead. The remnant remained the same. Be blessed.

One only needs to look at the activities done by the Roman Catholic Church to know this organisation could never represent the beloved saviour.

Cis.jd said:

Which reformation? Are we talking about when protestantism started or the 5,000+ times they reformed?

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5,000+ parties are a lot better than spiritual dictatorship.

b4jesustoday said:

What was reformed?
What was the authority for the reformation? Or
Where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

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The reformation was aimed at returning the Roman Catholic organisation to the Biblical church structure.
The authority for the reformation comes from God's word. Roman Catholicism was (and is) so far from Biblical Christianity that change was essential.
There is no mandate for reformation in the Bible. Neither is there a mandate for the Roman Catholic organisation. "Reformation" simply means going back to the original pattern for the church. Protestants still have a long way to go in that respect.

b4jesustoday said:

Without a central authority the head of the church on earth and reading the Bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that’s what you have! not unity and sound doctrine

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A dictatorship is bad news for people who suffer it. Roman Catholicism is a religious dictatorship. It is also bad news for real Christians. Better that people study for themselves and at least have the opportunity to know the truth. The RC approach enforces false teachings and dissent is not permitted.

b4jesustoday said:

What was reformed?
What was the authority for the reformation? Or
Where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

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I'm the perfect person to answer this question. The reformers reformed from the Catholic church in the 16th century because of the practices of the pope and the general church at the time. Martin Luther and Calvin thought that the practices of the Catholic church at the time weren't biblical in origin so they "reformed" the church to be back to what it used to be before and back to what the church should have been. They were looking for unity in the Church and also for the church as a whole r to believe what they believed.

It's because of the actions of the Reformers that the church is back to "normal" today in fundamentalist christianity. Even Catholics have changed their core beliefs and doctrines to become the core of Christianity that Paul and the apostles started all those years ago.

A lot of Catholics today claim that we are not saved by our works but that we are saved by our faith + the sacraments. That's a drastic change to the 16th century church who at the time were advocating works salvation, were sleeping with their wives, and executed loads of people for treason. Yes the reformers did that too not down playing it. But in the fundamentalist church today we have freedom of Christian religion. No longer are Christians who believe something else than you put under fear of execution and coerced into believing what you believe. People across all denominations are generally accepted by the church. That's a massive step in the right direction and it was the actions of the Reformers that got things swinging.

b4jesustoday said:

Without a central authority the head of the church on earth and reading the Bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that’s what you have! not unity and sound doctrine

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Hi @b4jesustoday (forgive me if this message is to long), you ask questions about the reformation, not really sure what good it did bring to life while reformation was going on and happening. Witch hunts and the good ol stuff maybe?

There are few questions, that are on my mind by what you said that is quoted about not having a central authority for the head of the church on earth.

How reading the bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that is what you have; not unity and sound doctrine.

Today in the society we live in, aside from the governmental set up and laws that have been created and aside from dozens upon dozens of churches to go and check out.

Where can we find the truth about who in the Church has the authority? Here are some scriptural answers to this question. Who is the who taught authority? (Mark 1:22, Matthew 7:29, Matthew 28:18, Mark 1:27, John 5:26-27, John 10:18, Matthew 8:23-27)

From these passages we can see that Yeshua is the one who has authority that was given to him by God our Father. He taught with authority and judged with authority.

Therefore it seems to me we can find the authority of Christ Yeshua to be profound, marvelous, and of amazement.

Who is the head of the church? (Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 4:15-16, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18, Colossians 1:24)

We see in these scriptures about who is the head of the church, and who is it? Yeshua Christ, who is the head of the church. If Yeshua is the head, and everyone who is a believer is a part of the body of believers.

The question for me is why do we need a pastor to govern over us if our relationship is individual between us and God himself?

b4jesustoday said:

reading the Bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that’s what you have! not unity and sound doctrine

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Disagreeing with this point, though the possible (for those who are extreme), as believers we should at at least remind believers of what the Lord Yeshua taught which are good and wise lessons and reassured of the love he had for all people when he lived a life on this earth and then died for the sins of the whole world. Being raised again symbolizing that we too as human beings created by God are going to be done in the same manner.

That if you read the bible starting with the New Testament and you read about Yeshua and pay attention to thing details of his life and what is going on and what he is doing, and the spirit inside of you can be built up the more you place your faith in God, and Yeshua and can lead to a renewed mind over all, by the spirit given by God.

(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16: Baptize in spirit, and fire )

(Luke 10:25-37; The Parable of the GOod Samaritan - a story of where the heart lays)

(1 Thessalonians 5:11; Romans 14:19, Hebrews 3:13, Jude 1:20, Hebrews 10:24, 1 Corinthians 14:26, Ephesians 4:15-16: Building each other up, spiritual growing to maturity)

(Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 5:17, Rev 21:5 renewed mind, new creation, God making of all things new. )

(1 Corinthians 2:12; receiving the Spirit)

It's of course always good to share Galatians 6:6. Though if no one has ever had the bible, God has a way of still writing his laws and hearts on peoples minds. (Hebrews 10:16)

What is sound doctrine? (Titus 2:1-15) Read this for a secure sense of what sound doctrine looks like.
What is maturity and unity in the faith? (Romans 15:4-7; Philippians 2:1-3, Colossians 1:28-29, Ephesians 4:1-5)

@b4jesustoday regretfully sorry if the message was to long. However though hope it makes sense to some who may come across it, thank you for your thread and post.

Yeshua is the solution for many problems. (Hebrews 12:2) Looking toward Yeshua the author and finisher of our faith, hope, trust, and believe! May grace and peace abound unto you and your family, friend from God our Father and Lord Yeshua Christ!

Albion said:

The Bible certainly does say to separate from what's wrong in either persons or their false beliefs, so reform in the church may be needed from time to time in history.

Here are some verses from Scripture that should help:

Romans 16:17
1 John 4:1-6
Acts of the Apostles 20:26-32

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But who decades who get to do it? For obvious reasons random people can’t just start claiming to be the one who gets to make these changes in understanding.

Dave L said:

All of the Reformers recognized the Papacy as the Antichrist and still affirm this in their creeds. This made Reformation essential.

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But who gave the reformers this authority to do such a thing?

Dave L said:

History says they were killed by the Papacy.

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Is our entire understanding based in this way that if history turns out to be wrong then all the beliefs associated with it may be wrong?

b4jesustoday said:

Without a central authority the head of the church on earth and reading the Bible for yourself produces spiritual and doctrinal chaos and anarchy and that’s what you have! not unity and sound doctrine

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What if the central authority is wrong? Is that possible?

b4jesustoday said:

What was reformed?
What was the authority for the reformation? Or
Where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

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The reformation was the lat straw of trying to reform Catholicism to bring it back to its biblical roots. When the church as an institution resisted, people left because they wished to be true to the Word. It was a very clumsy and imperfect departure, but it brought the Word of God bask into the light and people began reading Gods Word again and that always is a good thing.

b4jesustoday said:

What was reformed?
What was the authority for the reformation? Or
Where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

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The Papacy was obviously in error and the men God called to serve the church absolutely had tbe authority to call on the Papacy to repent and when it would not those men had every right to leave. If we were talking about one or two radical pastors it would be one thing. We're talking about thousands though. Scripture is of no private interpretation according to, I believe, 2 Tim (someone correct me if my memory is off). Luther, Calvin, Knox and Zwingli are the well known names but there were thousands of pastors involved in the Reformation. For example, over 100 clergy took part in the writing of the Westminster Confession. Similar numbers worked on the Three Forms of Unity.

In other words, unlike American Christendom, the reformation did not leave scripture up to private interpretations but opened up scripture for discussion on proper Biblical doctrine and theology. The reformation did what the Papacy should have been doing for centuries: ie looking to scripture rather than personal feelings, power or human tradition.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

But who decades who get to do it? For obvious reasons random people can’t just start claiming to be the one who gets to make these changes in understanding.

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What matters is what is right.

Obviously, some false prophet going off and forming a cult following isn't right. Obviously, hundreds and thousands of different denominations cannot all be right. But they cannot be stopped from trying. And it's not as though the church will be united simply because somebody in power demands subservience to a corrupt practice.

Finally, the Bible itself, which just about all denominations consider to be the word of God, teaches that we are to separate from error.