The happy Objectivist

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Just curious what you all think of presuppositional apologetics. Do you find it as unethical as I do, which is completely? If you're not familiar with this style of apologetics, just look up Sye Ten Bruggencate, Jeff Durbin, Matt slick, Dustin Segers, or watch one of the videos by Darth Dawkins aka, Dunkin Atheists.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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If you don't mind my asking: what is/are your ethical objection/s?
I have many objections to it but my biggest objection is that it counts on and cashes in on the ignorance of its opponents. It uses the gish gallop and browbeating to pummel opponents into submission and to find some item of ignorance that it can exploit until the opponent gives up under the hail of questions thrown rapid fire. Then the apologist declares victory by pointing out that his opponent "can't account" for something, e.g., knowledge, reliability of the senses, truth, good and evil, etc.

The questions asked are not asked honestly with a desire to learn about the opponent's views, the presupper has already declared that those views are wrong.

Presuppositional apologists never produce an argument for their conclusion, they assert that the opponent already knows that God exists and is just "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness", essentially accusing opponents of dishonesty without any evidence.



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Quid est Veritas?

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I don't think your objection is necessarily valid. It depends how it is used. The point is to show that the opposing worldview is dependant upon certain presuppositions, certain things taken as axiomatic. Now, all things can ultimately be doubted, down to the five tropes of Agrippa - being circular, assumed, progressing ad infinitum, relative or dissentable.

The point is to show the opponent that their worldview is not necessarily more valid than the Apologist's. So it is to show the failures of that worldview, in a nutshell to expose the presuppositions upon which it is built. When pressed on their own, they should ideally fall back that their base axiom is Faith, which must of course be taken on faith itself - the original presupposition, in other words.

So if they present themselves as beyond the ability of Scepticism, then it could be construed as dishonest. If they claim their worldview is necessarily faith-based, then I don't see the problem as such. Pointing out that things like empiricism or sense-data are not absolute epistemologically, is not really dishonest. Evidence is a tricky thing, and depends upon the framework that it is seen as evidence of - a bloody knife is just a knife till placed in the framework of a murder say - so the supposition is the point.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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True axioms can not be doubted, at least in reason. They would have to be true in order to doubt them. I don't see a problem with presuppositions if those presuppositions are true. The dishonesty is that the presuppositionalist has already declared that their opponents view 'can't account" for something or other that theirs can and that their account wins by default. The mere fact that everyone starts with presuppositions does not mean those presuppositions are false or taken on faith. And how does showing that their opponents' views are not necessarily more valid, validate their own position? It doesn't. That's a fallacy and since they pose as being so concerned with knowledge and its methods, they should know this.

My own worldview does not have any presuppositions as the apologist means the term, i.e., assumptions taken on faith, and yet the presupper has already deterrmined, a priori, that it does. It's not true that everyone starts with faith, and yet this is the assertion that presuppositionalists make.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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True axioms can not be doubted, at least in reason. They would have to be true in order to doubt them.
All axioms can be doubted. Saying 'at least in reason' merely means you are presupposing a set of reasonable positions within which to judge it, so you are then no longer dealing with an axiom. An axiom should be self-evidently true, but that is basically a statement taken on faith therefore. You can always say, suppose it isn't true though, and hence you still fall within the absolute Pyrrhonic Sceptic realm.

And how does showing that their opponents' views are not necessarily more valid, validate their own position? It doesn't.
Correct, it doesn't validate their own. But that is not the goal of presuppositional apologetics though. It is a response to claims of empiricism or such, as taking precedence to faith-based claims. It is merely to point out that there is a presupposition there too, so that precedence cannot really be established. It is a way to counter the attempts to invalidate a faith claim based upon another claim ultimately resting on faith; not to show the faith claim necessarily valid. If they did claim this, then yes, that would be fallacious. I am not sure most Apologists do this though, at least in my experience thereof (but I am not big on youtuber guys, so I am sure it is more prevalent there).

My own worldview does not have any presuppositions as the apologist means the term, i.e., assumptions taken on faith
That is impossible. If you accept your own perception, or consider your qualia valid, you are already making an assumption. Everything always falls within one of Agrippa's five Tropos in some way. At some point something must be accepted as such, and that something whatever it might be, is what is taken 'on faith'; else you just rest in utter Pyrrhonic Scepticism where nothing is known. One must just be careful, as there is a lot of confusion around the quotidian use of on faith and the idea of Faith as a Christian virtue; and this is exploited by the unscrupulous on occasion.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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All axioms can be doubted. Saying 'at least in reason' merely means you are presupposing a set of reasonable positions within which to judge it, so you are then no longer dealing with an axiom. An axiom should be self-evidently true, but that is basically a statement taken on faith therefore. You can always say, suppose it isn't true though, and hence you still fall within the absolute Pyrrhonic Sceptic realm.

Mine can't. They are implicit in the act of doubting.

Correct, it doesn't validate their own. But that is not the goal of presuppositional apologetics though. It is a response to claims of empiricism or such, as taking precedence to faith-based claims. It is merely to point out that there is a presupposition there too, so that precedence cannot really be established. It is a way to counter the attempts to invalidate a faith claim based upon another claim ultimately resting on faith; not to show the faith claim necessarily valid. If they did claim this, then yes, that would be fallacious. I am not sure most Apologists do this though, at least in my experience thereof (but I am not big on youtuber guys, so I am sure it is more prevalent there).
My axioms are not based on faith. The concept "faith" presupposes my starting point. My starting point is perceptually self evident, so no faith required.

That is impossible. If you accept your own perception, or consider your qualia valid, you are already making an assumption. Everything always falls within one of Agrippa's five Tropos in some way. At some point something must be accepted as such, and that something whatever it might be, is what is taken 'on faith'; else you just rest in utter Pyrrhonic Scepticism where nothing is known. One must just be careful, as there is a lot of confusion around the quotidian use of on faith and the idea of Faith as a Christian virtue; and this is exploited by the unscrupulous on occasion.
Not impossible and of course I accept the validity of my perception, to do otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of the stolen concept, since acceptance is a type of conscious action. If my perception is invalid, by what means am I conscious? Blank out.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Why does the insistence that you hold certain ideas as axiomatic require those axioms to be true?
I didn't say it did. I said that my axioms are implicit in the act of disagreeing.

Here I'll demonstrate. I'll be paraphrasing a passage from Leonard Piekoff's book, ObJectivism, The Philosophy of Ayn Rand.

A: There's no such thing as disagreement. How could there be, there's nothing to disagree about, nothing exists.

B: Of course things exist and people disagree all the time. You know this to be true.

A: That's one, the axiom of existence is implicit in the act of disagreeing.

But still. disagreement is a conscious action and people are not conscious.

B: Of course people are conscious. They're conscious of all sorts of things. You know this to be true.

A: That's two. the axiom of consciousness is implicit in the act of disagreeing.

But still, why should it matter if two people disagree. Why can't two people hold contradictory positions about some aspect of reality and why can't they both be equally right?

B: because contradictions can't exist, after all A is A.

A: That's three, the axiom of identity is implicit in the act of disagreeing.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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What are your axioms?
They are existence, consciousness, and identity

The axiom of existence identifies the fact that existence exists. Existence is everything that exists.

The axiom of consciousness identifies the fact that consciousness is consciousness of something, an object. An object is anything we perceive and or consider.

The axiom of identity identifies the fact that everything that exists has a nature or a specific set of attributes and is itself. A is A.

Taken together these 3 axioms imply a fourth: That existence exists and is what it is independent of conscious activity.

These are my starting point. These are my "presuppositions".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Just curious what you all think of presuppositional apologetics. Do you find it as unethical as I do, which is completely? If you're not familiar with this style of apologetics, just look up Sye Ten Bruggencate, Jeff Durbin, Matt slick, Dustin Segers, or watch one of the videos by Darth Dawkins aka, Dunkin Atheists.

Personally, I don't think those guys are dishonest so much as they may be simply over-impressed with their own "realized" axioms ... that's all. :dontcare:
 
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The happy Objectivist

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So if they present themselves as beyond the ability of Scepticism, then it could be construed as dishonest. If they claim their worldview is necessarily faith-based, then I don't see the problem as such. Pointing out that things like empiricism or sense-data are not absolute epistemologically, is not really dishonest. Evidence is a tricky thing, and depends upon the framework that it is seen as evidence of - a bloody knife is just a knife till placed in the framework of a murder say - so the supposition is the point.

But when they argue from "the impossibility of the contrary" this is precisely what they do. I guess you're not familiar with this style of apologetics. They claim that only the Christian worldview can account for knowledge, truth, intelligibility, good, evil, laws of logic, etc., and that they know this because an infallible being has revealed it to them in a way that they can be certain of it and without a belief in this being, one can not have this certainty. They do hold their position beyond skepticism. If I were a Christian, I'd be appalled by this. Just go watch them twist and evade and refuse to answer questions about their own worldview.
 
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Caliban

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Just curious what you all think of presuppositional apologetics. Do you find it as unethical as I do, which is completely? If you're not familiar with this style of apologetics, just look up Sye Ten Bruggencate, Jeff Durbin, Matt slick, Dustin Segers, or watch one of the videos by Darth Dawkins aka, Dunkin Atheists.
Did you ever listen to or watch the Atheist Experience episodes where Darth Dawkins appeared?--he is a nutter. I think he was on Talk Heathen also. These guys are nuts as well as unethical. It is pure comedy watching them loose debate after debate and not even know it.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Did you ever listen to or watch the Atheist Experience episodes where Darth Dawkins appeared?--he is a nutter. I think he was on Talk Heathen also. These guys are nuts as well as unethical. It is pure comedy watching them loose debate after debate and not even know it.
Oh yes. I can only stand to watch about 5 minutes of that guy before my blood pressure reaches dangerous levels. The evasion and gish gallop are strong with that one. He gives Christians a bad name in my opinion. people like him and Sye are delusional if they think they are winning converts.
 
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essentialsaltes

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It just seems to be an extremely stubborn and recursive form of begging the question.

Helpful stranger: Your shoe's untied.
Presup apologist: Yes, but the only reason you can sense that and know it accurately reflects reality is because Jesus died for your sins.

uh, how do you know Jesus died for your sins?
The same way I know anything! Because Jesus died for your sins!
 
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It just seems to be an extremely stubborn and recursive form of begging the question.

Helpful stranger: Your shoe's untied.
Presup apologist: Yes, but the only reason you can sense that and know it accurately reflects reality is because Jesus died for your sins.

uh, how do you know Jesus died for your sins?
The same way I know anything! Because Jesus died for your sins!
They have given up arguing for their position and seek to discredit other worldviews in the mistaken apprehension that if they can find some flaw or lack, theirs wins by default, but this is fallacious reasoning. I've noticed that they use a script and that that script is designed to go up against skeptics. They are expecting certain answers and if they don't get them, they don't know what to do. I've even seen them go ahead when this happens as if they have gotten the answer they wanted and when corrected, they just ignore the correction.
 
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