Re-baptism vs. Chrismation

buzuxi02

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I heard Fr. Peter Heers respond to a question saying that are-baptism is needed for all those outside the Orthodox Church and that Chrismation is psuedo-oeconomia (not valid).

Being obedient to one’s bishop is important, but he recommended being re-baptised.

What is the consensus here?

The canons only allow eikonomia for sects once removed from the Church that still baptised in both triple immersion and the proper formula. So that only leaves the Orientals and maybe the Assyrians. Since many churches don't have adult sizes fonts to immerse an adult convert, one can make the case that leniency can apply to Latins as well since triple immersion would not be used in the Orthodox baptism neither.

Protestants should be baptised as eikonomia cannot be applied in their case as they are not an offshoot once removed from the Church. The groups given leniency in the canons still used the same liturgical books and rites, they were not groups whose origins were formed completely apart from the church
 
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SingularityOne

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The canons only allow eikonomia for sects once removed from the Church that still baptised in both triple immersion and the proper formula. So that only leaves the Orientals and maybe the Assyrians. Since many churches don't have adult sizes fonts to immerse an adult convert, one can make the case that leniency can apply to Latins as well since triple immersion would not be used in the Orthodox baptism neither.

Protestants should be baptised as eikonomia cannot be applied in their case as they are not an offshoot once removed from the Church. The groups given leniency in the canons still used the same liturgical books and rites, they were not groups whose origins were formed completely apart from the church
That's interesting... Yeah. It seems that this is correct. But, if one is already in error on this, how can it be corrected? Or, should it?
 
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SingularityOne

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If they know that they were baptized and chrismased they must not repeat it. Only to renounce the delusions of the faith they fallen to.
Could you delve deeper into what you mean here? Like, even if it was ”error,” only getting chrismated into the Church from a protestant background, realizing it and knowing it was error/delusion - but not getting baptized again?
 
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buzuxi02

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That's interesting... Yeah. It seems that this is correct. But, if one is already in error on this, how can it be corrected? Or, should it?
St. Cyprian in one of his epistles teaches that the church has leeway when error and anomaly enters church life but this does not mean an error should persist and never be corrected. St. Basil in his canonical epistle says that Dionysios (patriarch of Alexandria) should have known better than to accept heretic baptism of the Pepuzeni. Basil says all coming from that group must be baptised regardless and the practise of Dionysios does not constitute a custom.
Likewise there is a canon if a child becomes orphaned and it cannot be verified that the child was baptised as an infant then the canon allows for that person to be baptised erring on the side of caution.
There is no such thing as rebaptism. If eikonomia is used the empty rite is co-opted by the church and makes it Her own, if the bishop decides to baptise a heterodox person anew it still only one baptism. But if eikonomia is applied in error it does not mean the convert is an unbaptized person but it also does not mean such a custom should persist forever.
 
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SingularityOne

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St. Cyprian in one of his epistles teaches that the church has leeway when error and anomaly enters church life but this does not mean an error should persist and never be corrected. St. Basil in his canonical epistle says that Dionysios (patriarch of Alexandria) should have known better than to accept heretic baptism of the Pepuzeni. Basil says all coming from that group must be baptised regardless and the practise of Dionysios does not constitute a custom.
Likewise there is a canon if a child becomes orphaned and it cannot be verified that the child was baptised as an infant then the canon allows for that person to be baptised erring on the side of caution.
There is no such thing as rebaptism. If eikonomia is used the empty rite is co-opted by the church and makes it Her own, if the bishop decides to baptise a heterodox person anew it still only one baptism. But if eikonomia is applied in error it does not mean the convert is an unbaptized person but it also does not mean such a custom should persist forever.
So, more specifically to my question (even though this makes sense and I'm thankful you wrote such a lengthy and informative response), a person Chrismated with a heterodox baptism is error (my context), but the obedience to the Church is something i should rest in. However, at the same time, realizing it is error and correcting that idea in my own head internally while at the same time accepting Chrismation as a fullness of acceptance into the Church by obedience. Is this correct thought?
 
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buzuxi02

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St. Basil in his 188th canonical letter explains:

Cathari are schismatics; but it seemed good to the ancient authorities, I mean Cyprian and our own Firmilianus, to reject all these, Cathari, Encratites, and Hydroparastatæ, by one common condemnation, because the origin of separation arose through schism, and those who had apostatized from the Church had no longer on them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for it ceased to be imparted when the continuity was broken. The first separatists had received their ordination from the Fathers, and possessed the spiritual gift by the laying on of their hands. But they who were broken off had become laymen, and, because they are no longer able to confer on others that grace of the Holy Spirit from which they themselves are fallen away, they had no authority either to baptize or to ordain. And therefore those who were from time to time baptized by them, were ordered, as though baptized by laymen, to come to the church to be purified by the Church's true baptism. Nevertheless, since it has seemed to some of those of Asia that, for the sake of management of the majority, their baptism should be accepted, let it be accepted
 
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SingularityOne

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St. Basil in his 188th canonical letter explains:

Cathari are schismatics; but it seemed good to the ancient authorities, I mean Cyprian and our own Firmilianus, to reject all these, Cathari, Encratites, and Hydroparastatæ, by one common condemnation, because the origin of separation arose through schism, and those who had apostatized from the Church had no longer on them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for it ceased to be imparted when the continuity was broken. The first separatists had received their ordination from the Fathers, and possessed the spiritual gift by the laying on of their hands. But they who were broken off had become laymen, and, because they are no longer able to confer on others that grace of the Holy Spirit from which they themselves are fallen away, they had no authority either to baptize or to ordain. And therefore those who were from time to time baptized by them, were ordered, as though baptized by laymen, to come to the church to be purified by the Church's true baptism. Nevertheless, since it has seemed to some of those of Asia that, for the sake of management of the majority, their baptism should be accepted, let it be accepted
So, that part at the end that says ”Nevertheless, since it has seemed to some of those of Asia that, for the sake of management of the majority, their baptism should be accepted, let it be” is kinda what we are talking about here, even though I agree that it is error to only chrismate a heterodox, it seems...
 
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buzuxi02

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So, that part at the end that says ”Nevertheless, since it has seemed to some of those of Asia that, for the sake of management of the majority, their baptism should be accepted, let it be” is kinda what we are talking about here, even though I agree that it is error to only chrismate a heterodox, it seems...
The canons of ecumenical council's mentions which groups are to be received by what method. Those coming from monophysites and nestorians only required a confession of faith and renounce any heresy. These were direct offshoots, still held the Creed with the same understanding of it, their baptismal rites which were Orthodox. A second group requiring chrismation still direct offshoots still baptised with triple immersion in the name of the Trinity but had certain heretical teachings. The third group requiring rebaptism were not all splinter groups. Many were gnostics, others changed the formula using single immersion or were not baptising in the name of the Trinity. Reception by eikonomia of groups that have their origins apart from the church is never mandated. St Basil himself explains the three categories of those seperated from the church: parasynagogues, schisms, and heresies. He says those in heresy must be baptised anew, he can't even conceive of a 4th group of people spontaneously starting their own church, they were called gnostics and gnostics were basically the Protestants of the early church.
 
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SingularityOne

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The canons of ecumenical council's mentions which groups are to be received by what method. Those coming from monophysites and nestorians only required a confession of faith and renounce any heresy. These were direct offshoots, still held the Creed with the same understanding of it, their baptismal rites which were Orthodox. A second group requiring chrismation still direct offshoots still baptised with triple immersion in the name of the Trinity but had certain heretical teachings. The third group requiring rebaptism were not all splinter groups. Many were gnostics, others changed the formula using single immersion or were not baptising in the name of the Trinity. Reception by eikonomia of groups that have their origins apart from the church is never mandated. St Basil himself explains the three categories of those seperated from the church: parasynagogues, schisms, and heresies. He says those in heresy must be baptised anew, he can't even conceive of a 4th group of people spontaneously starting their own church, they were called gnostics and gnostics were basically the Protestants of the early church.
Interesting. So, if I was (by my memory) only single immersed, but in the name of the Trinity, but only Chrismated, then I'm in error... But does that mean I need to get baptized correctly, even after I have been Chrismated and have been communing?
 
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buzuxi02

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Interesting. So, if I was (by my memory) only single immersed, but in the name of the Trinity, but only Chrismated, then I'm in error... But does that mean I need to get baptized correctly, even after I have been Chrismated and have been communing?
No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.

that was Fr Peter's main point to the Fords when they asked (as they were chrismated), and he absolutely affirmed their Orthodoxy.
 
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SingularityOne

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No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.
that was Fr Peter's main point to the Fords when they asked (as they were chrismated), and he absolutely affirmed their Orthodoxy.
Ah, so it's on the Synod, not me, and I can rest in obedience and don't have to worry about whether I'm in error or not?

It seems that the policy is too lenient and I'm aware that it is so. However, I want to make sure I'm of the right mindset in this and understand the truth of the matter.
 
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InnerPhyre

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I was baptized catholic as a baby and followed Christ my whole life, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing, and when I was received into the Church I was chrismated and publicly renounced the errors of Rome and recited the creed. It was enough.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ah, so it's on the Synod, not me, and I can rest in obedience and don't have to worry about whether I'm in error or not?

It seems that the policy is too lenient and I'm aware that it is so. However, I want to make sure I'm of the right mindset in this and understand the truth of the matter.

yes. it's on them (if there is anything to worry about at all)
 
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Fr. Peter Heers

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<< No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.>>

Ah, so it's on the Synod, not me, and I can rest in obedience and don't have to worry about whether I'm in error or not?

It seems that the policy is too lenient and I'm aware that it is so. However, I want to make sure I'm of the right mindset in this and understand the truth of the matter.

——

I appreciate all of your contributions and also the refined nature of the discussion and the problem.

It is true that what is widely practiced today cannot rightly be called and considered to be “oikonomia”, which is, of course, salvific and salutary. Rather, in most cases, it is “paranomia,” that is, not a “management of the house[hold] of Faith” but simply a departure from the law/rule/guiding hand of the Holy Canons, and, therefore, not leading us back to “akriveia,” or exactitude. And, thus, there is no doubt that the Local Churches need to return to akriveia asap, lest the boundaries of the Church and Orthodoxy continue to be eroded and become fluid with heterodoxy.

I cannot say, however, that such a foundational matter of faith and order in the Church is “just a policy decision”. Nor can I say that it is, or rather, should be based upon “whether the heterodox group Baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.” These are not, in fact, the criteria given by the Kollyvades Fathers in their analysis of the Patristic stance throughout the ages. The canons themselves almost never give clear criteria for why one group is received in one way and another in another way. There is no “aitiologia” (cause given), in order words, - except in the case of the Eunomians who diverted in terms of the FORM. And what the Kollyvades Fathers concluded was that the one consistent, in terms of what the Fathers did vis-a-vis heretics, was *the form* which was kept by them - not the faith professed by them. In other words, if a heretical group ceased to practice the Orthodox FORM or baptism - by immersion - the Fathers insisted on baptism. That is why they can receive Arians by chrismation but Paulanists, Eunomians, Montanists, Phrygians, and Sabellians *and others* by baptism.

In this regard I highly recommend the following short analysis and new translation of the key canon on the matter, the 95th of Trullo, for a better understanding of the mind of the Fathers on the matter: Canon 95 -Council of Trullo

In short, brothers and sisters, there are presuppositions to the mysteries and especially to the Mystery of Initiation into Christ and His Church. And, to the employment of salvific - i.e. true - oikonomia. If the heterodox have abandoned - as almost all of them have today - the basic form of the mystery, we should, following the Holy Fathers, employ the stance of the Church which has been to baptize and not to admit by any means of oikonomia. This is precisely the basis of the decision of the famous synodical decree of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1755. In this case, employing oikonomia and receiving by chrismation also undermines the akriveia of the Church and inevitably leads to grave laxity in terms of our own practice of baptism, as is evidenced in many places in the Church today, especially Serbia and Russia.

As for the comments of our brother “Singularity One,” it is not advised to set aside the matter of Truth in any matter, but much more in such foundational matters of Faith and Church order and to rely solely on the opinion of any one person in the Church, even be it your spiritual father or priest or bishop. We do not practice “blind obedience” in the Church with respect to *matters of Faith and Dogma*. The canons are very clear on this, as are the Fathers, of which an abundance of quotes can be shared. Even in the monastic life, where one could say that a kind of blind obedience is called for, this does not pertain to matters of Faith and Order, since a monk can leave his monastery and his elder if he is a heretic or if he allows women or young men to stay in the monastery (thus breaking the Patristic and monastic order of things).

Finally, let us consider the practice of the (vast majority of) Fathers on Athos Today (and for the last 50 years+ certainly) with regard to those heterodox received by chrismatation. It is not only future monks who are baptized. If even a visitor, a good-willed, inquisitive visitor, speaks to the fathers on Athos about his reception by chrismation, it is very likely that most monasteries and most abbots there (and in many places in Greece) will encourage him to correct the error of his reception by chrismation (and given that the presuppositions mentioned above are not met, which is key). They do not reject him as Orthodox, nor all that he has lived in the Church (God forbid!) but neither do they consider it not within the oikonomia of God to correct the error. There have been not a few charismatic experiences of holy elders over the years to confirm this stance, which also is consistent with the Kollyvades Fathers understanding.

Brothers and sisters, we are living in an unprecedented time, with an unprecedented degree of departures from canonical norms in many aspects of our Church Life. The narrow path has gotten, and is getting every day, narrower due to wider, more egregious departures from the Way of the Holy Fathers. Let us Stand Aright! Stand with Fear! Let us Attend!
 
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SingularityOne

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<< No. What Fr. Peter Heers is saying is the Synod of each church need to change their policies as the application of leniency has gone amok.
At this point in time who is chrismated is just a policy decision based on whether the heterodox group baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.>>



——

I appreciate all of your contributions and also the refined nature of the discussion and the problem.

It is true that what is widely practiced today cannot rightly be called and considered to be “oikonomia”, which is, of course, salvific and salutary. Rather, in most cases, it is “paranomia,” that is, not a “management of the house[hold] of Faith” but simply a departure from the law/rule/guiding hand of the Holy Canons, and, therefore, not leading us back to “akriveia,” or exactitude. And, thus, there is no doubt that the Local Churches need to return to akriveia asap, lest the boundaries of the Church and Orthodoxy continue to be eroded and become fluid with heterodoxy.

I cannot say, however, that such a foundational matter of faith and order in the Church is “just a policy decision”. Nor can I say that it is, or rather, should be based upon “whether the heterodox group Baptises in the name of the Trinity, has some belief in the Trinity and are not hostile to Orthodoxy.” These are not, in fact, the criteria given by the Kollyvades Fathers in their analysis of the Patristic stance throughout the ages. The canons themselves almost never give clear criteria for why one group is received in one way and another in another way. There is no “aitiologia” (cause given), in order words, - except in the case of the Eunomians who diverted in terms of the FORM. And what the Kollyvades Fathers concluded was that the one consistent, in terms of what the Fathers did vis-a-vis heretics, was *the form* which was kept by them - not the faith professed by them. In other words, if a heretical group ceased to practice the Orthodox FORM or baptism - by immersion - the Fathers insisted on baptism. That is why they can receive Arians by chrismation but Paulanists, Eunomians, Montanists, Phrygians, and Sabellians *and others* by baptism.

In this regard I highly recommend the following short analysis and new translation of the key canon on the matter, the 95th of Trullo, for a better understanding of the mind of the Fathers on the matter: Canon 95 -Council of Trullo

In short, brothers and sisters, there are presuppositions to the mysteries and especially to the Mystery of Initiation into Christ and His Church. And, to the employment of salvific - i.e. true - oikonomia. If the heterodox have abandoned - as almost all of them have today - the basic form of the mystery, we should, following the Holy Fathers, employ the stance of the Church which has been to baptize and not to admit by any means of oikonomia. This is precisely the basis of the decision of the famous synodical decree of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1755. In this case, employing oikonomia and receiving by chrismation also undermines the akriveia of the Church and inevitably leads to grave laxity in terms of our own practice of baptism, as is evidenced in many places in the Church today, especially Serbia and Russia.

As for the comments of our brother “Singularity One,” it is not advised to set aside the matter of Truth in any matter, but much more in such foundational matters of Faith and Church order and to rely solely on the opinion of any one person in the Church, even be it your spiritual father or priest or bishop. We do not practice “blind obedience” in the Church with respect to *matters of Faith and Dogma*. The canons are very clear on this, as are the Fathers, of which an abundance of quotes can be shared. Even in the monastic life, where one could say that a kind of blind obedience is called for, this does not pertain to matters of Faith and Order, since a monk can leave his monastery and his elder if he is a heretic or if he allows women or young men to stay in the monastery (thus breaking the Patristic and monastic order of things).

Finally, let us consider the practice of the (vast majority of) Fathers on Athos Today (and for the last 50 years+ certainly) with regard to those heterodox received by chrismatation. It is not only future monks who are baptized. If even a visitor, a good-willed, inquisitive visitor, speaks to the fathers on Athos about his reception by chrismation, it is very likely that most monasteries and most abbots there (and in many places in Greece) will encourage him to correct the error of his reception by chrismation (and given that the presuppositions mentioned above are not met, which is key). They do not reject him as Orthodox, nor all that he has lived in the Church (God forbid!) but neither do they consider it not within the oikonomia of God to correct the error. There have been not a few charismatic experiences of holy elders over the years to confirm this stance, which also is consistent with the Kollyvades Fathers understanding.

Brothers and sisters, we are living in an unprecedented time, with an unprecedented degree of departures from canonical norms in many aspects of our Church Life. The narrow path has gotten, and is getting every day, narrower due to wider, more egregious departures from the Way of the Holy Fathers. Let us Stand Aright! Stand with Fear! Let us Attend!
This is very helpful for discernment. Thank you Fr. Peter.
 
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When it comes to the “form” of baptism, how do we also consider the oikonomia explicitly permitted in the didache?

“And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.”

The didache seems to say, in a perfect world, baptism would be by triple immersion in running water (a river or lake, I guess). But it allows for baptism to be done simply by pouring water onto the person. So would that still be considered an Orthodox “form” of baptism? That’s very similar to how the Papal and traditional Protestant churches (Anglicans and Lutherans at least) do baptism - they pour water over the person 3 times while baptizing them “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
 
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