The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Timtofly said:

Are they spiritual, and not literal, in EVERY case used in the NT?


It depends on when God said them.

I doubt you can pinpoint the moment God said them. You are in the same boat, I am.

Click to expand...

Can you clarify this. I don't know what you are saying.

eclipsenow said:

See how these are saints that are dead - and are now in heaven? Souls?
It's picture language I know - because I wouldn't be surprised if death actually worked differently with say us all waking up on the Last Day together - but that's another really big topic! But 'souls'.

Click to expand...

So you are not a soul? The other category would be a fallen angel.

No they are not in heaven. It says they are resurrected to earth. Reading compression is key.

Show me were in the Bible it says the Greek word gazillion. To compare Scripture with Scripture. Is there really a need to call earth heaven? Is there a need if amil says this period does not exist to make it an even longer period of non-existence? Turning 1000 into gazillion seems like a dramatic flair to the narrative if you just want it to be 0.

Now interpreting this period between a specific battle of Armageddon and a specific battle of Gog and Megog, with a specific 1000 year time frame and changing this period to stretch or contract at a whim, is a private interpretation. It is still a private interpretation, if a gazillion, nope sorry, if a couple million people accepted such theology. Do you think Islam is not a private interpretation, even if more than a billion people on earth accepts it? Do you think God does not exist if billions of humans accept that false ideology? The words as written by John sitting in perfect understandable context without any interpretation, makes perfect sense. No changing words, changing thoughts, nope. Written in plain Koine Greek, translated into plain English.

claninja said:

the perfect tense does not mean the action can occur at any time. It means it is completed and the results are still in affect up til the present.

Click to expand...

Yes it can- it means the Lord is at the door and remains and is poised for the next step! that is what "at the door" means, an action can occur at any time!

Timtofly said:

Sorry, but the Garden of Eden, Paradise, the temple of God, New Jerusalem are names for the place the sons of God are positioned in God. Abraham's bosom was not Paradise. Paradise was not really an OT place. Abraham's bosom was the OT place. Paradise did not go to sheol. It was off limits to Adam's descendants as punishment. It is where the tree of life is. There is an alter there. God placed it there. Abel used it until Cain killed him. God banned Cain from the Garden, and no one could ever enter because it was only for Adam and Adam's descendants. In Revelation 6, John mentioned Paradise as the place all souls are under the alter.

Click to expand...

Maybe you should tell that to the Jews and about 90% of believing Christianity. Fanciful and creative, but dead wrong!

Timtofly said:

Now you can teach and preach covenants all day. They are for the living not the dead. The church under the alter contains all of Adam's descendants from Enoch until those raptured in the 6th seal. Covenants with those living on earth have nothing to do with the church in Paradise. Hate to be a killer of dreams like amil kill the next 1000 years. But the church ain't coming back until the New Jerusalem. Now they may sit on thrones between here and the moon, but only to observe earthlings. Well, and judge them. But what do I know. I just read the Bible and post my thoughts. Some people like to pick out the exact Greek or Hebrew meaning and then look for every verse with that meaning. Do I claim they are wrong in their approach? Do they claim I am wrong in pointing out the similarities in concepts like where the alter started out and when it comes back? Why Elijah can come and go like Enoch. Why Moses died when he was the most healthiest man to ever live? Why there are two Lord's Day on either side of 6 days men have to work. Why the seals deal with the sealed church. Why trumpets are used in the assembly of God's tabernacle. Why no one mentions the Thunderings. Why these 3 Judgments coincide with 3 different weeks.

Click to expand...

Well I will end our discussion here by saying, we shall see won't we.

But just consider this- you say the church started with Adam- you need to contact Jesus and let Him know He misspoke!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He did not say I have been building, or will keep building- but will (future active indicative) my church. NOw either Jesus is wrong or Timtofly is wrong? whom do you think I am voting is wrong?

keras said:

They are only the martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4
ALL the rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

They will be raised in mortal bodies, just as Lazarus was. Their heads re-attached and their wounds healed. Isaiah 58:8

Click to expand...

Don't know what Is. 58:8 has to do with it!

8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.

I don't care who they are, they could have died from eating too much pizza- the Bible says they are in heaven and you say no one is!

keras said:

Jesus did not say the Christians will go to Paradise at death. The thief on the cross and everyone else 'sleep' in the grave until the Last Trumpet sounds. Rev 20:11-15

Click to expand...

I never said Christians went to paradise- we go home to be with the Lord at the moment of death (to be absent from the body).

but OT saints were different! Because Jesus had no shed His blood and poured it out on the mercy seat in heaven, when they died they went to the part of sheol/hades/ hell/ the g rave/ the underworld known by Jews as Abraham's Bosom/Paradise!

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The penitent thief went to paradise that day!

Luke 16:20-31
King James Version
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

To all the Jews except those taught by the Sadducee's Paradise and Abes bosom were one and the same! Two words describing one place where the righteous dead went!

nolidad said:

Maybe you should tell that to the Jews and about 90% of believing Christianity. Fanciful and creative, but dead wrong!

Click to expand...

I am not here to question 1900 years of wrong church theology. It is wrong, and that is just a historical fact. The church has way more fanciful tradition and "stories" than I can dream up in a lifetime. Sorry the Word of God is too mundane and practical. I am curious why the Bible is dead wrong, while 1900 years of human interpretations are the TRUTH?

nolidad said:

Well I will end our discussion here by saying, we shall see won't we.

But just consider this- you say the church started with Adam- you need to contact Jesus and let Him know He misspoke!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He did not say I have been building, or will keep building- but will (future active indicative) my church. NOw either Jesus is wrong or Timtofly is wrong? whom do you think I am voting is wrong?

Click to expand...

I say the church is just not NT believers. I am not giving out any labels on past dead people. No one agrees on the covenants nor the majority of the Gospels and their application. Yes, all humans will have to wait till death to see how misguided human theology can be.

The church was built on Christ. Christ is the rock not cut out by human hands in Daniel. The church is the mountain built on that rock, Jesus Christ that has filled the whole earth. You cannot say the OT is excluded from the Atonement. They were dead and in the past. They are still a part of Christ. Labels only work on the living. Trying to label dead people is futile. The living barely understand who they are in the Power of the Holy Spirit. It gets worse when humans just listen to other humans and never figure life out on a personal basis. Labels barely apply to groups of ideology. Each day is a new dynamic and an ongoing labeling process. New humans born, many humans die.

keras said:

Revelation 20:4 refers to only those who will be martyred for their faith during the 3 1/2 year period of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; the Great Tribulation. Any speculations of other persons or entities being involved, or alive in heaven, is unscriptural error.

Click to expand...

Except you're purposely ignoring where John says he saw the souls of those who had been killed. They came alive where the thrones are - where's that? Heaven - God's 'control room' that we saw back in Chapter 4. "4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders." What do we read in Rev 20? "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge." That sounds like the same thrones in heaven in Chapter 4, combined with John saying "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded" = HEAVEN!

It can't be anything else. This is the plain reading of the passage. Then we see them coming to life in heaven - and not going to hell! Compare this verse with the end of the chapter.
"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."
Compare with:
"4 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

So after you die, you either rise to live in heaven - or die again!

Again, the number 1000 is usually a metaphor.
Again, the 2 ages model we see in the rest of the New Testament doesn't really leave room for an in-between stage.
Again, we shouldn't be making false predictions that may indeed contribute to secular scoffing at us silly Christians that keep putting a date on things - and more and more time just keeps passing along.
Again, we shouldn't be ignoring the fact that Revelation is a book of comfort to those suffering under tyrants, suffering under pestilence (like right now!), suffering under the weight and chains of materialism or even silly first world problems like over-identifying with certain silly political parties or Presidents for their security! Revelation has relevant and sharply written warnings and encouragements to all these subjects - and we ignore it at our peril. And turning it into an end-times table irrelevant to all Christians except the last generation is just another form of ignoring what it really says.

keras said:

Yes their souls will be kept in heaven. Jesus will bring their souls with Him at Hs Return and raise them all back to life. All as set out in Rev 20.
What is your issue with this Bible truth. Do you want to add to it?

Click to expand...

I thought you were saying these people would be raised to life to rule in Jerusalem during the Millennium? Sorry, I may have assumed something about your system from other millennial systems. I can't keep up - there are too many!

Yes: exactly as Revelation 20:11-15 tells us.
Those whose names are in the Book of Life, will live with God for Eternity. On earth; Rev 21:1-7. Those whose names are not in the BoL, will be annihilated.

Click to expand...

This all implies you should be sympathetic to Amillennialism if you don't actually think the dead are raised to rule from Jerusalem. Excellent! I suggest a grabbing a coffee (my Kiwi friend - I forgot you were so close to my time zone!) and having a good slow and careful read of Riddlebarger.
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
PS: Sorry to hear that after 100 days of being Corona-free NZ now has to go back into lockdown. What's the latest on what caused it - a hotel quarantine breach?

nolidad said:

Yes it can- it means the Lord is at the door and remains and is poised for the next step! that is what "at the door" means, an action can occur at any time!

Click to expand...

No, the perfect tense never means something can happen at any moment. The perfect tense demonstrates a past completed action With the results going into the present. Therefore James 5:9 should read “ the Judge hath stood before the door”.

The phrase “at the door” would never indicate Something Far in distance or time. That is another change in definition that a futurist is forced to make.

I would argue James 5:8-9 is a reference to the parable of the fig tree in the Olivet discourse.

Timtofly said:

I am not here to question 1900 years of wrong church theology. It is wrong, and that is just a historical fact. The church has way more fanciful tradition and "stories" than I can dream up in a lifetime. Sorry the Word of God is too mundane and practical. I am curious why the Bible is dead wrong, while 1900 years of human interpretations are the TRUTH?



I say the church is just not NT believers. I am not giving out any labels on past dead people. No one agrees on the covenants nor the majority of the Gospels and their application. Yes, all humans will have to wait till death to see how misguided human theology can be.

The church was built on Christ. Christ is the rock not cut out by human hands in Daniel. The church is the mountain built on that rock, Jesus Christ that has filled the whole earth. You cannot say the OT is excluded from the Atonement. They were dead and in the past. They are still a part of Christ. Labels only work on the living. Trying to label dead people is futile. The living barely understand who they are in the Power of the Holy Spirit. It gets worse when humans just listen to other humans and never figure life out on a personal basis. Labels barely apply to groups of ideology. Each day is a new dynamic and an ongoing labeling process. New humans born, many humans die.

Click to expand...

So you are here to say they are all wrong and why your opinion of the bible is right! Okay.

As for Jesus- Now you are confusing the atonement with the Church!

YOu also reject language in the scriptures (like Jesus sai He will and has not been building His church-big big difference)

But you can have the last post if you wish, this is my last one on this.

keras said:

The thief did and Jesus didn't? I don't think so!
The Bible story is clear, Jesus lay dead for 3 days in the tomb. As Jesus said: His death is paralleled in the story of Jonah, Luke 11:29-30 He then rose again and appeared to the disciples many times. 40 days later, He Ascended to heaven. Acts 1:1-11

Your notion of anyone going to heaven to live, dead or alive, is pure imagination and cannot happen.

Click to expand...

Sorry you reject the clear teaching of SCripture.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Why should we reject teh Words of Jesus and accept yours??

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So you do not believe Jesus is in heaven?

Revelation 19
King James Version
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

The Bible says there is much people (not angels or dogs or mice) in heaven. YOu say impossible. Why should we believe your declarations over what the bible simply says here?

keras said:

For the thief; it WILL be just like that same day. After death he and everyone, is out of time, they know nothing until their next conscious moment, as they stand before God in Judgment. As that thief did repent and accept Jesus, he will go into Eternity with God.

Click to expand...

Who told you that? Not Gods Word- jesus said TODAY you WILL be with me in Paradise! Everything else is your conjecture not based on god!

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

keras said:

It is the SOULS of the dead martyrs who are kept in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 God allows them to cry out at times.
Why we shouldn't believe your fable of people living in heaven, is because Jesus said it was impossible. John 3:13, + Eventually God and heaven come to the earth. Rev 21

Click to expand...

so according to teh Word of Karas, God wakes up the souls of the martyrs in heaven from time to time so they can cry out, and then God puts them back to sleep again? WOW!

keras said:

What YOU reject is the scriptures that say the dead know nothing and 'sleep' in their graves. Eccl 9:5-6, Acts 13:36, +

Click to expand...

NO I fully accept it with all the counsel of SCripture about the dead.

The dead, their bodies sleep in the grave. But now when a believer dies- they absent their bodies and go home to be with the Lord! That is beyond dispute except for with you , the SDA and the JW's.

The dead do know nothing- the dead do not learn. Their bodies are rotting, but teh lost go to teh place of torment and the righteous go home to be with the Lord. YOu can only come up wioth your doctrine by rejecting Scripture as written.

YOu forget that teh concept of life after death was not revealed by God until the time of the Kings. God did not reveal all things all at once, but introduced things bit by bit!

When Jesus spoke of Lazarus and the rich man, He spoke of the underworld as everyone believed! Jesus did not refute the belief but shared an account of two people who went to the grave! All the parables were about the kingdom. This account is not about the kingdom so Jesus was not speaking to hide truths from the masses.

But when you die you will find out the truth. Time to end the discussion. You are firmly planted in your half knowledge and twisting the grammar of Scripture to make what Paul wrote of as a present and immediate reality into some future hope!

this is a minor issue that brethren can debate as iron sharpensd iron, but twisting SCriptures and allegorizing them to make them mean something not resembling what is written is a far more serious problem.

YOu forget you are a new Testament saint and bound by new Testament truths not revealed in the OLD! And if the penitent thief had been taught in synagogue- When Jeus spoke "TODAY you will be with me in paradise" He expected that very day, and not some soul sleep so that when he awoke it seemed like the same day! What you wrote is totally different than what jesus said! Selah

keras said:

Your supporting scripture proves you wrong!
Jesus didn't go to Paradise after he died at all.
He went to Sheol and preached to the imprisoned dead souls, then He preached to the disciples for 40 days. Acts 1:1-11
Also; do you adhere to the Apostles Creed? ....was Crucified dead and buried, He descended into hell and on the third He rose again.....

Click to expand...

Now you need to learn that even the people who wrote the Apostles creed you just cited knew this simple fact:

Sheol/hades/hell/the grave, was composed of three places:

1. Tartarus: Where the angels who had sex with Women in Gen. 6 are bound for now.
2. The place of torments: Where teh rich man and all lost go awaiting the lake of fire.
3. Paradise/Abrahams Bosom: where the righteous souls went after death prior to Jesus" death resurrection and ascencion!

Jesus told the penitent thief that "Today" the penitent thief will be with Jesus in Paradise! I will believe the plain word of Jesus over the plain word of Karas!

YOu need to show me the code book God gave you that authorizes you to take the plain wordsa and meaning of SCriptures and declare; I know this is what Gods Word says here, but this is what it really means!"

keras said:

According to Revelation 6:9-11, that is exactly what God does do. They cry out again, thanking God, in Revelation 19:1-2

Click to expand...

Only when you add your hypothesis which contradicts New Testament teaching! To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord! It doesn't say or hint or imply that people soul sleep (you even contradict yourself on that above when you said Jesus preached to dead souls. Do dead souls respond?)
and that when they wake up it seems like it was right away!

keras said:

No; you don't accept Bible truth, you prefer fables!
Your false belief of living in heaven, is wrong and will never happen.

Click to expand...

And you bearing false witness against a brother is getting old. Ihave told you many timeas already we do not live in heaven (excpet from the rapturew till teh return) we go to be with Jesus and go through the Bema Judgment and retrieve our rewards and wed the Lord and return with Him to live forever on earth and the new earth. Stop lying!

When you say I believe we live i nheaven it strongly implies for all time and I told you that is not true.

keras said:

Accusations like this are unworthy of you. You must prove I have done this.
Revelation 6:9-11 says that the souls of the martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven. God does allow them to cry out at times, but they are not 'alive' as such; just spiritual entities. Just as all the dead are, without consciousness unless God wills it.
Look at the example of Samuel. He was called up from his 'sleep'; 1 Samuel 28:15 and complained to Saul for being disturbed.

Click to expand...

Simple. You absolutely declared there are no people in heaven. Isaid there were.

When I gave passages you ceded the fact that there are souls under the altar in heaven.

Then you further declared that God wakes them up from time to time to cry oput! Please don't make me scroll back and show you did this.

These are not biblical statements. these are allegorical opines based on I can only imagine what agenda!

YOu find code book bothersome? How about secret revelations? Why should I believe your popinions over the clear writing of Scripture? How can we know you are not speaking in some mystery form and down the road we will find out what you really mean. Just like you do with portions of Scripture. Sorry Karas but how you define portions of Scripture is far removed from the easy simple writing God inspired.

Even above you make such silly statements such as "they are not alive--=- as such" Well I didn't know that when we leave our body we are only kind of alive!

YOu take OT passages and use them as your standard in light of teh fact that the NT contradicts your conclusion of soul sleep and God from time to time allows sleepers to awaken.