Matthew 24, the divide

Douggg

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Timtofly

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Timtofly, the term "3.5 years or 3 1/2 years" is not used in the bible. Using those terms is just a common practice people do for discussion sake. The actual terms are 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 days, time/times/half time.

The time frames in Revelation are given after John eats the little book in Revelation 10.

The thing to do is break the 7 years into two halves. The first half and the second half. And then place the timeframes in which half they should belong.


first half
1260 days Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half

3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time/times/half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

John never mentions 7 years in the book of Revelation. There is a single 3.5 year period. There is a single 1000 year period. Those two other than the 3.5 days of the vials being poured out are the only literal time periods. John never tells the length of time prior to Satan's 3.5 years. That comes from transposing Daniel onto the book of Revelation. Jesus does not give any time frames either. The return is that undocumented "thief in the night" moment. No being is supposed to know the exact second it happens. Thus John does not give a 3.5 year countdown account to show when this, only 3.5 year period that he does mention, starts. Why would Satan trust any date setters?
 
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keras

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This 'interpretation', is another fundamental error of the 'rapture' camp.
If the escape in verse 36, does mean rapture removal, then it creates a Bible anomaly, as verse 35 plainly says everyone will experience that Day.
Other scriptures say there will be no escape; Hebrews 12:8, and all must be tested. 1 Peter 4:12
What is actually meant in verse 36, is the Lord will protect His own, as many scriptures prove. Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13
....Keras, the two witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the first half of the seven years. People exchange presents over their deaths and celebrate. It is not 3 days prior to Jesus's Return. The armies of the world are preparing for battle against Jesus at that time. No-one is going to be having holiday season at that time.
Again; your only rebuttal is opinion and guesswork.
The first 3 1/2 years is not in Revelation at all, it will be a period of peace as the treaty holds. Daniel 9:27
Proof of the 2 Witnesses preaching during the 2nd half, is the earthquake of Revelation 11:12-13, paralleled by Revelation 16:17-18, just prior to the Return.
The armies gathering at Armageddon won't affect the people in Jerusalem. The arrival of those armies will be another cause for them to rejoice.
 
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iamlamad

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This 'interpretation', is another fundamental error of the 'rapture' camp.
If the escape in verse 36, does mean rapture removal, then it creates a Bible anomaly, as verse 35 plainly says everyone will experience that Day.
Other scriptures say there will be no escape; Hebrews 12:8, and all must be tested. 1 Peter 4:12
What is actually meant in verse 36, is the Lord will protect His own, as many scriptures prove. Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13
This is not really logical. Where is SPOCK?


34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

34: That Day, the Day of the Lord, will come upon the word unaware - as a thief in the night.
35: IT - that is the Day of the Lord - will come upon WHO? "All them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Verse 36 tells us we an escape all these things. If people escape the Day of the Lord (what is talked about in the previous verses) then those who escape WON'T BE DWELLING on the face of the earth! They will have escaped. Why is a "catching up" not an escape?
 
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Running2win

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Hillarious. Sort of like Joseph Smith receiving messages in KJ English!
I was just joking with Doug. He's a good egg. :oldthumbsup:

I'm in the Pre-Wrath camp, but as long as someone is Pre=Mill, I'm pretty well ok with it. Even though I believe my position to be the correct one. :rolleyes: I mean, Jesus is Pre-Mill (and Post-Trib) but I digress. :D
 
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Timtofly

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I was just joking with Doug. He's a good egg. :oldthumbsup:

I'm in the Pre-Wrath camp, but as long as someone is Pre=Mill, I'm pretty well ok with it. Even though I believe my position to be the correct one. :rolleyes: I mean, Jesus is Pre-Mill (and Post-Trib) but I digress. :D
Technically, Jesus is none of the above. He clearly pointed out He did not know when the rapture would happen. Yes He is going to be here to rule 1000 years. He is not going to show up 1000 years after His own rule. That is logically and physically impossible.
 
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iamlamad

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I was just joking with Doug. He's a good egg. :oldthumbsup:

I'm in the Pre-Wrath camp, but as long as someone is Pre=Mill, I'm pretty well ok with it. Even though I believe my position to be the correct one. :rolleyes: I mean, Jesus is Pre-Mill (and Post-Trib) but I digress. :D
Here you were mistaken: Jesus is premill and pretrib! (How can you possibly make it to the marriage and supper unless you move them? ;-)
 
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Running2win

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Technically, Jesus is none of the above. He clearly pointed out He did not know when the rapture would happen. Yes He is going to be here to rule 1000 years. He is not going to show up 1000 years after His own rule. That is logically and physically impossible.


Right! So put the same logic to work...:idea: So technically Jesus is Pre-Mill because He comes back before the 1000 years. And I believe He is also technically Post-Trib, for the same reason- that His coming (parousia) is only shown in Scripture as such. He only said day or hour, and pointed to signs that must take place before His coming (parousia).

This word parousia is the key to knowing when Jesus comes back. It always means the initial arrival or advent, and then a continued presence. I found this out a long time ago when I studied this out.

This is the same word used in Mat 24, and 1st Thess, 4, 2nd 2, 1st Cor 15. It is even used when the man of sin is revealed-his initial appearance, and he will have lying signs and wonders to go with it, in 2nd Thess 2:9.

When they are compared, the arrival of Jesus is Post-Trib. This gives us the time reference and season.The day or hour is literally the day or hour! We can know the season we are in or Jesus would not of said so. If He comes back before this, He lumps Himself in with the false Christs and prophets that will be coming on the seen just before He returns. This is the reality of what Jesus taught. What we do with it is up to us. :)


3952. parousia
Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from the pres. part. of pareimi
Definition
a presence, a coming
NASB Translation
coming (22), presence (2).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3952: παρουσία

παρουσία, παρουσίας, ἡ (παρών, παροῦσα, παρουσον, from πάρειμι which see) in Greek authors from the Tragg., Thucydides, Plato down; not found in the Sept.;
1. presence: 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 10:10; opposed to ἀπουσίᾳ, Philippians 2:12 (2 Macc. 15:21; (Aristotle, phys. 2, 3, p. 195a, 14; metaphys. 4, 2, p. 1013b, 14; meteor. 4, 5, p. 382a, 33 etc.)).

2. the presence of one coming, hence, the coming, arrival, advent, ((Polybius 3, 41, 1. 8); Judith 10:18; 2 Macc. 8:12; (Hermas, sim. 5, 5, 3 [ET])): 2 Corinthians 7:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:9 (cf. ἀποκαλυφθήσεται; ἡ ... πάλιν πρός τινα, of a return, Philippians 1:26. In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3; ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (27), 37, 39; τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4; Χριστοῦ, 2 Peter 1:16; αὐτοῦ, 1 Corinthians 15:23; (1 Thessalonians 2:19); 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 2 Peter 3:4; (1 John 2:28); τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας, 2 Peter 3:12. It is called in ecclesiastical writings ἡ δευτέρᾳ παρουσία, Ev. Nicod. c. 22 at the end; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 52 (where see Otto's note); dialog contra Trypho, chapters 40, 110, 121; and is opposed to ἡ πρώτη παρουσία which took place in the incarnation, birth, and earthly career of Christ, Justin Martyr, dialog contra Trypho, chapters 52, 121, cf. 14, 32, 49, etc.; (cf. Ignatius ad Phil. 9 [ET] (and Lightfoot)); see ἔλευσις.
 
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keras

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Jesus is none of the above. He clearly pointed out He did not know when the rapture would happen.
What Jesus clearly and undeniably said, is going to heaven is impossible: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 5:10
This is not really logical. Where is SPOCK?


34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

34: That Day, the Day of the Lord, will come upon the word unaware - as a thief in the night.
35: IT - that is the Day of the Lord - will come upon WHO? "All them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Verse 36 tells us we an escape all these things. If people escape the Day of the Lord (what is talked about in the previous verses) then those who escape WON'T BE DWELLING on the face of the earth! They will have escaped. Why is a "catching up" not an escape?
Yes, I have seen this argument before.
It does not hold up, as there is nothing before verse 35 ...all who dwell on the face of the earth....to say; some will be removed.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a crock, a false teaching that has fooled many, to their discredit.
 
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iamlamad

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What Jesus clearly and undeniably said, is going to heaven is impossible: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 5:10

Yes, I have seen this argument before.
It does not hold up, as there is nothing before verse 35 ...all who dwell on the face of the earth....to say; some will be removed.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a crock, a false teaching that has fooled many, to their discredit.
Your logic was faulty. Why not just admit it: if someone is taken up from the earth, then they are no longer on the earth. For this, it does not matter where those caught up are taken. I think John 14 makes WHERE very plain.

Anyway, if you don't WANT to go to heaven, God knows the desire of your heart.
 
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Timtofly

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Right! So put the same logic to work...:idea: So technically Jesus is Pre-Mill because He comes back before the 1000 years. And I believe He is also technically Post-Trib, for the same reason- that His coming (parousia) is only shown in Scripture as such. He only said day or hour, and pointed to signs that must take place before His coming (parousia).

This word parousia is the key to knowing when Jesus comes back. It always means the initial arrival or advent, and then a continued presence. I found this out a long time ago when I studied this out.

This is the same word used in Mat 24, and 1st Thess, 4, 2nd 2, 1st Cor 15. It is even used when the man of sin is revealed-his initial appearance, and he will have lying signs and wonders to go with it, in 2nd Thess 2:9.

When they are compared, the arrival of Jesus is Post-Trib. This gives us the time reference and season.The day or hour is literally the day or hour! We can know the season we are in or Jesus would not of said so. If He comes back before this, He lumps Himself in with the false Christs and prophets that will be coming on the seen just before He returns. This is the reality of what Jesus taught. What we do with it is up to us. :)


3952. parousia
Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from the pres. part. of pareimi
Definition
a presence, a coming
NASB Translation
coming (22), presence (2).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3952: παρουσία

παρουσία, παρουσίας, ἡ (παρών, παροῦσα, παρουσον, from πάρειμι which see) in Greek authors from the Tragg., Thucydides, Plato down; not found in the Sept.;
1. presence: 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 10:10; opposed to ἀπουσίᾳ, Philippians 2:12 (2 Macc. 15:21; (Aristotle, phys. 2, 3, p. 195a, 14; metaphys. 4, 2, p. 1013b, 14; meteor. 4, 5, p. 382a, 33 etc.)).

2. the presence of one coming, hence, the coming, arrival, advent, ((Polybius 3, 41, 1. 8); Judith 10:18; 2 Macc. 8:12; (Hermas, sim. 5, 5, 3 [ET])): 2 Corinthians 7:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:9 (cf. ἀποκαλυφθήσεται; ἡ ... πάλιν πρός τινα, of a return, Philippians 1:26. In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3; ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (27), 37, 39; τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4; Χριστοῦ, 2 Peter 1:16; αὐτοῦ, 1 Corinthians 15:23; (1 Thessalonians 2:19); 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 2 Peter 3:4; (1 John 2:28); τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας, 2 Peter 3:12. It is called in ecclesiastical writings ἡ δευτέρᾳ παρουσία, Ev. Nicod. c. 22 at the end; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 52 (where see Otto's note); dialog contra Trypho, chapters 40, 110, 121; and is opposed to ἡ πρώτη παρουσία which took place in the incarnation, birth, and earthly career of Christ, Justin Martyr, dialog contra Trypho, chapters 52, 121, cf. 14, 32, 49, etc.; (cf. Ignatius ad Phil. 9 [ET] (and Lightfoot)); see ἔλευσις.
Nice study, but. Revelation 6 points out at the opening of the 6th seal, God on the throne comes down to the clouds. It also says the Lamb is with Him. Hint, the Lamb, the one who was pierced. This is the event no one knows when will happen, but it could happen very soon. The 6th seal does not start the trib. The first 4 do.
 
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Running2win

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Nice study, but. Revelation 6 points out at the opening of the 6th seal, God on the throne comes down to the clouds. It also says the Lamb is with Him. Hint, the Lamb, the one who was pierced. This is the event no one knows when will happen, but it could happen very soon. The 6th seal does not start the trib. The first 4 do.
Yeah, and it also has a word that is translated "presence". It means before the face of, so presence. So parousia means presence too.

This is the connector in Revelation to Mat 24 and the other verses. Follow the bread crumbs, that is why I'm Pre-Wrath. :)

The reason we cannot peg down the day or hour has to do with there is no Temple over in Israel yet. Once we see the Temple and sacrifices start to be offered, then we can count 2300 days until days until Jesus returns to cleans the Temple. In the middle of the the 70th week, the beast stops the sacrifices, defiles the Temple by sitting in it, and sets up the AD, and the great Trib starts. (Doug has something similar on one of his charts).

The length of the great trib is not certain, and that was what Jesus was getting at about the day and hour. (I think it will be approx 2.5 years) The three signs in the sky ending with Him splitting the fabric of Heaven; which IS the sign of the Son of Man (all eyes shall be able to look into heaven then and see-as you stated both the throne of God and His face, and the Lamb) coming in all their shining glory.

It is well with my soul! :)


“Fall on us and hide us from the presence (face) of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

4383. prosópon
Strong's Concordance
prosópon: the face
Original Word: πρόσωπον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: prosópon
Phonetic Spelling: (pros'-o-pon)
Definition: the face
Usage: the face, countenance, surface.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pros and óps (an eye, face)
Definition
the face
NASB Translation
ahead* (2), appearance (5), before* (2), coming* (1), face (37), faces (5), openly (1), outwardly* (1), partial* (3), partiality (1), people (1), person (1), persons (1), presence (11), sight (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4383: πρόσωπον

πρόσωπον, προσώπου, τό (from πρός and ὤψ, cf. μέτωπον), from Homer down; the Sept. hundreds of times for פָּנִים, also for אַפַיִם, etc.;
1.

a. the face, i. e. the anterior part of the human head: Matthew 6:16, 17; Matthew 17:2; Matthew 26:67; Mark 14:65; Luke (); (T Tr WH omit; Lachmann brackets the clause); Acts 6:15; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 13, 18; (); Revelation 4:7; Revelation 9:7; Revelation 10:1; τό πρόσωπον τῆς γενέσεως, the face with which one is born (A. V. his natural face), James 1:23; πίπτειν ἐπί πρόσωπον (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 27, 1 n.; 122 (116)) and ἐπί τό πρόσωπον, Matthew 17:6; Matthew 26:39; Luke 5:12; Luke 17:16; 1 Corinthians 14:25; (Revelation 7:11 Rec.; ἔπεσαν ἐπί τά πρόσωπα, Revelation 11:16; Revelation 7:11 G L T Tr WH); ἀγνωυμενος τίνι τῷ προσώπῳ, unknown to one by face, i. e. personally unknown, Galatians 1:22; bereaved of one προσώπῳ, οὐ καρδία (A. V. in presence, not in heart), 1 Thessalonians 2:17; κατά πρόσωπον, in or toward (i. e. so as to look into) the face, i. e. before, in the presence of (see κατά, II. 1 c.): opposed to ἀπών, 2 Corinthians 10:1; with τίνος added, before (the face of) one, Luke 2:31; Acts 3:13; ἔχω τινα κατά πρόσωπον, i. e. to have one present in person (A. V. face to face), Acts 25:16; ἀντέστην κατά πρόσωπον, I resisted him to the face (with a suggestion of fearlessness), Galatians 2:11 (κατά πρόσωπον λέγειν τούς λόγους, Polybius 25, 5, 2; add Job 16:8; but in Deuteronomy 7:24; Deuteronomy 9:2; Judges 2:14; 2 Chronicles 13:7, ἀντιστῆναι κατά πρόσωπον τίνος simply denotes to stand against, resist, withstand); τά κατά πρόσωπον the things before the face, i. e. open, known to all, 2 Corinthians 10:7. Expressions modelled after the Hebrew: ὁρᾶν τό πρόσωπον τίνος, to see one's face, see him personally, Acts 20:25; Colossians 2:1; ἰδεῖν, 1 Thessalonians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:10; θεωρεῖν, Acts 20:38 (cf. θεωρέω, 2 a.); particularly, βλέπειν τό πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see βλέπω, 1 b. β.), Matthew 18:10; ὁρᾶν τό πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see ὁράω, 1), Revelation 22:4; ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ, to appear before the face of God, spoken of Christ, the eternal priest, who has entered into the heavenly sanctuary, Hebrews 9:24; in imitation of the Hebrew אֵל־פָּנִים פָּנִים we have the phrase πρόσωπον πρός πρόσωπον, face (turned (see πρός, I. 1 a., p. 541b)) to face (εἶδον τινα, Genesis 32:30; Judges 6:22): tropically, βλέπω namely, τόν Θεόν, see God face to face, i. e. discern perfectly his nature, will, purposes, 1 Corinthians 13:12; a person is said to be sent or to go πρό προσώπου τίνος (פ לִפנֵי) (cf. Winers Grammar, § 65, 4 b. at the end; Buttmann, 319 (274)), i. e. before one, to announce his coming and remove the obstacles from his way, Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:76; Luke 7:27 (Malachi 3:1); ; πρό προσώπου τίνος (of time) before a thing, Acts 13:24 (so לִפְנֵי in Amos 1:1; Zechariah 8:10; where the Sept. simply πρό (cf. πρό, b., p. 536b bottom)). πρός φωτισμόν τῆς γνώσεως τῆς δόξης τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν προσώπῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, that we may bring forth into the light the knowledge of the glory of God as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:6 (Paul really means, the majesty of God manifest in the person of Christ; but the signification of πρόσωπον is 'face,' and Paul is led to use the word by what he had said in of the brightness visible in the force of Moses).

b. countenance, look (Latinvultus), i. e. the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and (by its various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings: κλίνειν τό πρόσωπον εἰς τήν γῆν, to bow the face to the earth (a characteristic of fear and anxiety), Luke 24:5; Hebraistic phrases relating to the direction of the countenance, the look: τό πρόσωπον τοῦ κυρίου ἐπί τινα, namely, ἐστιν, the face of the Lord is (turned) upon one, i. e. he looks upon and watches him, 1 Peter 3:12 (from Psalm 33:17 ()); στηρίζειν τό πρόσωπον (Hebrew שׂוּם or פָּנִים נָתַן; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, ii., p. 1109 on the same form of expression in Syriac, Arabic, Persian, Turkish) τοῦ πορεύεσθαι εἰς with an accusative of the place (A. V. steadfastly to set one's face to go etc. (see στηρίζω, a.)), Luke 9:51; moreover, even τό πρόσωπον τίνος ἐστι πορευόμενον εἰς with the accusative of place, Luke 9:53 (τό πρόσωπον σου πορευόμενον ἐν μέσῳ αὐτῶν, 2 Samuel 17:11); ἀπό προσώπου τίνος φεύγειν, to flee in terror from the face (German Anblick) of one enraged, Revelation 20:11; κρύπτειν τινα etc. (see κρύπτω, a.), Revelation 6:16; ἀνάψυξις ἀπό προσώπου Θεοῦ, the refreshing which comes from the bright and smiling countenance of God to one seeking comfort, Acts 3:20 (19); on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 see ἀπό, p. 59a middle; μετά τοῦ προσώπου σου, namely, ὄντα, in the presence of thy joyous countenance (see μετά, I. 2 b. β'.), Acts 2:28 (from Psalm 15:11 ()); εἰς πρόσωπον τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν, turned unto (i. e. in (R. V.)) the face of the churches as the witnesses of your zeal, 2 Corinthians 8:24; ἵνα ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων ... διά πολλῶν εὐχαριστηθῇ, that from many faces (turned toward God and expressing the devout and grateful feelings of the soul) thanks may be rendered by many (accordingly, both ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων and διά πολλῶν belong to εὐχαριστηθῇ (cf. Meyer ad loc.; see below)), 2 Corinthians 1:11. ἀπό προσώπου τίνος (פ מִפְּנֵי),from the sight or presence of one, Acts 5:41; Acts 7:45 (here A. V. before the face; Revelation 12:14); ἐν προσώπῳ Χριστοῦ, in the presence of Christ, i. e. Christ looking on (and approving), 2 Corinthians 2:10 (Proverbs 8:30); (some would render πρόσωπον here and in above person (cf. R. V.): — here nearly equivalent to on the part of (Vulg.in persona Christi); there equivalent to 'an individual' (Plutarch, de garrul. 13, p. 509 b.; Epictetus diss. 1, 2, 7; Polybius 8, 13, 5; 12, 27, 10; 27, 6, 4; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 1, 1 [ET]; 47, 6 [ET]; Phryn., p. 379, and Lobeck's note, p. 380)).
 
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Timtofly

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Yeah, and it also has a word that is translated "presence". It means before the face of, so presence. So parousia means presence too.

This is the connector in Revelation to Mat 24 and the other verses. Follow the bread crumbs, that is why I'm Pre-Wrath. :)

The reason we cannot peg down the day or hour has to do with there is no Temple over in Israel yet. Once we see the Temple and sacrifices start to be offered, then we can count 2300 days until days until Jesus returns to cleans the Temple. In the middle of the the 70th week, the beast stops the sacrifices, defiles the Temple by sitting in it, and sets up the AD, and the great Trib starts. (Doug has something similar on one of his charts).

The length of the great trib is not certain, and that was what Jesus was getting at about the day and hour. (I think it will be approx 2.5 years) The three signs in the sky ending with Him splitting the fabric of Heaven; which IS the sign of the Son of Man (all eyes shall be able to look into heaven then and see-as you stated both the throne of God and His face, and the Lamb) coming in all their shining glory.

It is well with my soul! :)


“Fall on us and hide us from the presence (face) of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

4383. prosópon
Strong's Concordance
prosópon: the face
Original Word: πρόσωπον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: prosópon
Phonetic Spelling: (pros'-o-pon)
Definition: the face
Usage: the face, countenance, surface.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pros and óps (an eye, face)
Definition
the face
NASB Translation
ahead* (2), appearance (5), before* (2), coming* (1), face (37), faces (5), openly (1), outwardly* (1), partial* (3), partiality (1), people (1), person (1), persons (1), presence (11), sight (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4383: πρόσωπον

πρόσωπον, προσώπου, τό (from πρός and ὤψ, cf. μέτωπον), from Homer down; the Sept. hundreds of times for פָּנִים, also for אַפַיִם, etc.;
1.

a. the face, i. e. the anterior part of the human head: Matthew 6:16, 17; Matthew 17:2; Matthew 26:67; Mark 14:65; Luke (); (T Tr WH omit; Lachmann brackets the clause); Acts 6:15; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 13, 18; (); Revelation 4:7; Revelation 9:7; Revelation 10:1; τό πρόσωπον τῆς γενέσεως, the face with which one is born (A. V. his natural face), James 1:23; πίπτειν ἐπί πρόσωπον (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 27, 1 n.; 122 (116)) and ἐπί τό πρόσωπον, Matthew 17:6; Matthew 26:39; Luke 5:12; Luke 17:16; 1 Corinthians 14:25; (Revelation 7:11 Rec.; ἔπεσαν ἐπί τά πρόσωπα, Revelation 11:16; Revelation 7:11 G L T Tr WH); ἀγνωυμενος τίνι τῷ προσώπῳ, unknown to one by face, i. e. personally unknown, Galatians 1:22; bereaved of one προσώπῳ, οὐ καρδία (A. V. in presence, not in heart), 1 Thessalonians 2:17; κατά πρόσωπον, in or toward (i. e. so as to look into) the face, i. e. before, in the presence of (see κατά, II. 1 c.): opposed to ἀπών, 2 Corinthians 10:1; with τίνος added, before (the face of) one, Luke 2:31; Acts 3:13; ἔχω τινα κατά πρόσωπον, i. e. to have one present in person (A. V. face to face), Acts 25:16; ἀντέστην κατά πρόσωπον, I resisted him to the face (with a suggestion of fearlessness), Galatians 2:11 (κατά πρόσωπον λέγειν τούς λόγους, Polybius 25, 5, 2; add Job 16:8; but in Deuteronomy 7:24; Deuteronomy 9:2; Judges 2:14; 2 Chronicles 13:7, ἀντιστῆναι κατά πρόσωπον τίνος simply denotes to stand against, resist, withstand); τά κατά πρόσωπον the things before the face, i. e. open, known to all, 2 Corinthians 10:7. Expressions modelled after the Hebrew: ὁρᾶν τό πρόσωπον τίνος, to see one's face, see him personally, Acts 20:25; Colossians 2:1; ἰδεῖν, 1 Thessalonians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:10; θεωρεῖν, Acts 20:38 (cf. θεωρέω, 2 a.); particularly, βλέπειν τό πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see βλέπω, 1 b. β.), Matthew 18:10; ὁρᾶν τό πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see ὁράω, 1), Revelation 22:4; ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ, to appear before the face of God, spoken of Christ, the eternal priest, who has entered into the heavenly sanctuary, Hebrews 9:24; in imitation of the Hebrew אֵל־פָּנִים פָּנִים we have the phrase πρόσωπον πρός πρόσωπον, face (turned (see πρός, I. 1 a., p. 541b)) to face (εἶδον τινα, Genesis 32:30; Judges 6:22): tropically, βλέπω namely, τόν Θεόν, see God face to face, i. e. discern perfectly his nature, will, purposes, 1 Corinthians 13:12; a person is said to be sent or to go πρό προσώπου τίνος (פ לִפנֵי) (cf. Winers Grammar, § 65, 4 b. at the end; Buttmann, 319 (274)), i. e. before one, to announce his coming and remove the obstacles from his way, Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:76; Luke 7:27 (Malachi 3:1); ; πρό προσώπου τίνος (of time) before a thing, Acts 13:24 (so לִפְנֵי in Amos 1:1; Zechariah 8:10; where the Sept. simply πρό (cf. πρό, b., p. 536b bottom)). πρός φωτισμόν τῆς γνώσεως τῆς δόξης τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν προσώπῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, that we may bring forth into the light the knowledge of the glory of God as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:6 (Paul really means, the majesty of God manifest in the person of Christ; but the signification of πρόσωπον is 'face,' and Paul is led to use the word by what he had said in of the brightness visible in the force of Moses).

b. countenance, look (Latinvultus), i. e. the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and (by its various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings: κλίνειν τό πρόσωπον εἰς τήν γῆν, to bow the face to the earth (a characteristic of fear and anxiety), Luke 24:5; Hebraistic phrases relating to the direction of the countenance, the look: τό πρόσωπον τοῦ κυρίου ἐπί τινα, namely, ἐστιν, the face of the Lord is (turned) upon one, i. e. he looks upon and watches him, 1 Peter 3:12 (from Psalm 33:17 ()); στηρίζειν τό πρόσωπον (Hebrew שׂוּם or פָּנִים נָתַן; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, ii., p. 1109 on the same form of expression in Syriac, Arabic, Persian, Turkish) τοῦ πορεύεσθαι εἰς with an accusative of the place (A. V. steadfastly to set one's face to go etc. (see στηρίζω, a.)), Luke 9:51; moreover, even τό πρόσωπον τίνος ἐστι πορευόμενον εἰς with the accusative of place, Luke 9:53 (τό πρόσωπον σου πορευόμενον ἐν μέσῳ αὐτῶν, 2 Samuel 17:11); ἀπό προσώπου τίνος φεύγειν, to flee in terror from the face (German Anblick) of one enraged, Revelation 20:11; κρύπτειν τινα etc. (see κρύπτω, a.), Revelation 6:16; ἀνάψυξις ἀπό προσώπου Θεοῦ, the refreshing which comes from the bright and smiling countenance of God to one seeking comfort, Acts 3:20 (19); on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 see ἀπό, p. 59a middle; μετά τοῦ προσώπου σου, namely, ὄντα, in the presence of thy joyous countenance (see μετά, I. 2 b. β'.), Acts 2:28 (from Psalm 15:11 ()); εἰς πρόσωπον τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν, turned unto (i. e. in (R. V.)) the face of the churches as the witnesses of your zeal, 2 Corinthians 8:24; ἵνα ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων ... διά πολλῶν εὐχαριστηθῇ, that from many faces (turned toward God and expressing the devout and grateful feelings of the soul) thanks may be rendered by many (accordingly, both ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων and διά πολλῶν belong to εὐχαριστηθῇ (cf. Meyer ad loc.; see below)), 2 Corinthians 1:11. ἀπό προσώπου τίνος (פ מִפְּנֵי),from the sight or presence of one, Acts 5:41; Acts 7:45 (here A. V. before the face; Revelation 12:14); ἐν προσώπῳ Χριστοῦ, in the presence of Christ, i. e. Christ looking on (and approving), 2 Corinthians 2:10 (Proverbs 8:30); (some would render πρόσωπον here and in above person (cf. R. V.): — here nearly equivalent to on the part of (Vulg.in persona Christi); there equivalent to 'an individual' (Plutarch, de garrul. 13, p. 509 b.; Epictetus diss. 1, 2, 7; Polybius 8, 13, 5; 12, 27, 10; 27, 6, 4; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 1, 1 [ET]; 47, 6 [ET]; Phryn., p. 379, and Lobeck's note, p. 380)).
2.5 + 3.5 = 6 years. It is about 2.75 years though.
 
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Running2win

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2.5 + 3.5 = 6 years. It is about 2.75 years though.

1 year and 10 days = time Noah was in the ark=time from Feast of trumpets around to day of Atonement the next year (1 year and 10 days). Church in Heaven 1 year 10 days. Jesus Fulfills both=70th week of Daniel. :)
 
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Timtofly

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1 year and 10 days = time Noah was in the ark=time from Feast of trumpets around to day of Atonement the next year (1 year and 10 days). Church in Heaven 1 year 10 days. Jesus Fulfills both=70th week of Daniel. :)
The church is complete at the 6th seal. Forever in the temple of God. Revelation 7:14-15. The temple prepared for Adam called the Garden of Eden. It is currently called Paradise (Garden in Persian). In another 1000+ years it will be called New Jerusalem. The church has been in the temple for 1990 years. God says forever, although God is free to change forever at any time. The church has been home for 1990 years and no one really leaving until after New Jerusalem sets back down on earth in the New Heavens and Earth. That is the issue with folks interpretation of the church.

The living church is in heaven (the dead in Christ). Those living on earth currently, will be soon changed and leave earth. That is what Paul taught. Paul never taught the church would come back to earth. We may rule and reign from Paradise, but no one even knows what Paradise looks like nor how it is arranged. We know a little about the Garden of Eden. We know a little about the New Jerusalem. It is speculation or the stories of near death experiences is all we are "told". Nothing in the Bible except the name and the tree of life is still there.
 
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iamlamad

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Pre-Wrath baby! Pre-Wrath. :oldthumbsup::amen:
Oh! How quaint! Prewrath has far more problems that posttrib!

Prewrath has the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of in the seals - while John and the Holy Spirit start those days in chapter 14! Only about 8 chapters off!
 
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