Covenant and New Covenant theology

BABerean2 said:

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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Why don't we actually read the information the Hebrews Author provided for us, which not only clearly defined what Law changed, it also tells us why this Law changed.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

So why would a religious man only post the scripture telling us there was, by necessity, a change in the law, without posted the following Scriptures which not only tell us what Law changed, but why it changed?


Why would a person do such a thing?

Studyman said:

Why don't we actually read the information the Hebrews Author provided for us, which not only clearly defined what Law changed, it also tells us why this Law changed.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

So why would a religious man only post the scripture telling us there was, by necessity, a change in the law, without posted the following Scriptures which not only tell us what Law changed, but why it changed?


Why would a person do such a thing?

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Maybe it was because later in the same book he said in Hebrews 12:18 that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.


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Guojing said:

I already had all the scripture passages listed for you, on what Israel had to believe about Jesus, during the 4 gospels and early Acts.

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You also listed water baptism as necessary for the salvation of Israelites, although the thief on the cross beside of Jesus was not water baptized.


The process of being "born again" is found in the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


It is the same process for all races of people.
Two different Gospels are not found in the New Testament, just as Two Peoples of God are not found in John 10:16.

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Studyman said:

I pointed out that Jesus didn't teach differently than God at all, He just taught differently than the preachers of Old Time who had turned out of the way of the Lord, and into a way which showed partiality to God's Law. I posted HIS Word's which clearly show this.

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QFE

BABerean2 said:

Maybe it was because later in the same book he said in Hebrews 12:18 that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

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So you omitted the Hebrews definition of what Law changed and why, and are rejecting the Christ's Own Definition of His Own New Covenant, because Hebrews 12 tells us we come to the New High Priest in the heavenly Jerusalem for forgiveness, and not the High Priest God gave to Israel on Mt. Sinai?

Not sure I follow your logic here.

BABerean2 said:

Maybe it was because later in the same book he said in Hebrews 12:18 that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.


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I believe it's important to keep this all in context:

Studyman said:

So you omitted the Hebrews definition of what Law changed and why, and are rejecting the Christ's Own Definition of His Own New Covenant, because Hebrews 12 tells us we come to the New High Priest in the heavenly Jerusalem for forgiveness, and not the High Priest God gave to Israel on Mt. Sinai?

Not sure I follow your logic here.

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Once again you are attempting to claim the New Covenant and the Sinai Covenant are one and the same, with the only exception being a change in the priesthood.

You are attempting to ignore the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant found below.

In Galatians 3:16-29 the Apostle Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made. (Christ)

This is confirmed below by the Old Testament.

The verse below reveals the fact that the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


We find below that this covenant was not given at an earlier time.
The statues and judgments are a part of following the ten commandments.
If a neighbor's cow comes into your pasture and steals your grass, it explains how to handle that problem.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

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BABerean2 said:

You also listed water baptism as necessary for the salvation of Israelites, although the thief on the cross beside of Jesus was not water baptized.


The process of being "born again" is found in the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


It is the same process for all races of people.
Two different Gospels are not found in the New Testament, just as Two Peoples of God are not found in John 10:16.

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Mark 16:16 made it clear that water baptism was required for the nation Israel.

It’s linked to Israel being born again, the term born again was only mentioned in John, both In his Gospel as well as his letters to Israel, and not once in Paul letters. You are trying to read that term into Ephesians

It’s for good reasons that Paul never mentioned that, it was meant for Israel

Guojing said:

Mark 16:16 made it clear that water baptism was required for the nation Israel.

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Which baptism is the question? The word "water" is not found in Mark 16:16.
Some of us see water every time they see the word "baptize" in scripture.
What do we find below in scripture?


Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



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BABerean2 said:

he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

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and with fire.
You should have bolded that, as it will be with fire that the Lord will Judge and punish Judah.
Jeremiah 6:8-15 Be instructed, Jerusalem [Judah, the Jewish people], or your God will depart from you and will devastate the Land. Isaiah 22:11-14

The Lord says: Glean like a vine the remnant of Israel, one last time, like the vine dresser – pass your hand over the branches. Isaiah 5:5-7

To whom shall I speak and give warning? Who will hear me? Their ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach, it has no appeal for them. Ezekiel 22:26-31

But I am full of the anger of the Lord, I cannot hold it back. Isaiah 63:1-6 I must pour it out onto all the people of the Land. Their houses will be given to others.

For all the leaders and people only consider themselves, their prophets and Rabbis are all frauds, every one of them. They fail to address the real problems of their people. They say: “All is well”. All well? Nothing is right and just. They ought to be ashamed because of their sinful practices, yet they have no sense of shame, therefore they will fall with a great crash and be brought low on the Day of My reckoning. Jeremiah 8:8, Ezekiel 33:25-26, Isaiah 6:11-13


Jeremiah 6:16-30 The Lord says: you should enquire about the Way that leads to righteousness. But they said: “We refuse”. Then I appointed watchmen – listen for the call they told them. But they said: “We refuse”. Therefore hear you nations and take note of the plight of these people. I am about to bring ruin upon them, for all their sinful ways and ignoring My instructions. Your sacrifices are not acceptable and your offerings do not please Me. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:4-6, Matthew 24:41-42

Therefore the Lord says: I will set obstacles before this people, which will bring them to the ground, father, sons, friends and neighbors will all perish together. Jeremiah 12:14-17 A great host appears, like men arrayed for battle, against you; Zion.

News of their coming has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, pangs as of a woman in labor. Do not go outside, for the foe will smite you there, as terror is spread around the world. Mourn and wail as the despoiler comes upon us in an instant. Isaiah 10:17, Isaiah 29:5-6, Zechariah 1:14-18 & 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

It is appointed to assay My people, testing their conduct, but they are all rebels, mischief makers and corrupt to a man. The bellows blow, the fire is ready.
All types of metal in vain the refiner refines, but the impurities cannot be removed. Call them reject silver, for God has rejected them. Matthew 21:43 Ref: REB.

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming judgement/punishment by fire– the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This terrifying event will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and all this prophecy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of part of the holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-17

‘a great host appears, like men ready for battle’ This description, along with Joel 2:1-11, is a simile for what will happen. These verses say how the Lord will act on His great Day of vengeance and wrath: Isaiah 63:1-6, Rev 6:12-17
A coronal mass ejection flash will ‘come in an instant’, seen in eight minutes, Isaiah 30:26, but the main mass of superheated hydrogen will take about 24 hours to travel to earth and ‘news of its coming will reach us’. ‘Do not go outside’, is obvious – get into shelter and stay there until it passes, Isaiah 26:20-21, ‘as terror is spread around the world,’ for at least 24hrs. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 2:12-21, Zeph. 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7 Their houses will be given to others’. Psalms 69:33-36

BABerean2 said:

Which baptism is the question? The word "water" is not found in Mark 16:16.
Some of us see water every time they see the word "baptize" in scripture.
What do we find below in scripture?


Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



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Water baptism has been required for Israel since John the Baptist came into the scene.

You can understand the apostle John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

But you are correct, water baptism is not required for salvation for us now in the Body of Christ, we are saved by following 1 Cor 15:1-4. As I have already stated to you, Paul never mention to us the same necessity of being born again.

Guojing said:

As I have already stated to you, Paul never mention to us the same necessity of being born again.

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Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



Nobody enters the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God.
This truth is also found in Romans 8:9.


Are you saying every Israelite who was water baptized by John the Baptist will automatically be a part of the kingdom of God?


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keras said:

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming judgement/punishment by fire– the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This terrifying event will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and all this prophecy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of part of the holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-17

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That day is found below.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


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BABerean2 said:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



Nobody enters the kingdom of God without being "born again" of the Spirit of God.
This truth is also found in Romans 8:9.


Are you saying every Israelite who was water baptized by John the Baptist will automatically be a part of the kingdom of God?


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They need to endure to the end, as both Jesus stated in the gospels, and what James Peter and John wrote to Israel in their letters.

The term "born again" is not found in Paul's epistles, you are trying to read that term in, which I cannot stop you if you insist in doing so.

Guojing said:

They need to endure to the end, as both Jesus stated in the gospels, and what James Peter and John wrote to Israel in their letters.

The term "born again" is not found in Paul's epistles, you are trying to read that term in, which I cannot stop you if you insist in doing so.

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When Christ was talking to Nicodemus what did He mean when He used the term "born again", if He was not referring to being born again of the Spirit of God, which he also promised in John 14:26?


If you are attempting to produce more than one Gospel it is a huge problem, especially in reference to the New Covenant.

You are attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, which is a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


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BABerean2 said:

Once again you are attempting to claim the New Covenant and the Sinai Covenant are one and the same, with the only exception being a change in the priesthood.

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No, I am pointing out the Covenant God made that changed, according to HIS OWN WORDS.

God separated from Israel, the Tribe of Levi, and GAVE THEM a Covenant on Israel's behalf. He did this because Israel broke the Covenant HE gave them when He brought them out of Egypt. He "ADDED" this Law because of Transgression, "til the SEED Came.

This is the covenant God made with Israel.

EX. 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

While they were yet in Sin, Yet in Egypt, He Healed them and made a deal with them.

But they broke HIS Covenant on Mt. Sinai and God set about to "consume" them as HE did to the Egyptians.

Ex. 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: (Broke the Covenant) they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

But Moses Pleaded with God not to destroy them all. And Moses gave the people a chance to stand with God.

26. Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

But the rest of the men were spared.

30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

And God prepared a sanctuary, with a Mercy Seat and Alter, and God Separated Levi from the rest of Israel as Ministers before Him of the Sanctuary. They were, by Covenant, to administer God's Laws, and Provide for the forgiveness of men that sinned. This Law was ADDED, 430 years after Abraham, to God's Commandments, God's Laws, and God's Statutes that Abraham obeyed, "Because" of Transgression of these Laws which define sin, "Til the Seed should come.

The Serpent, the "other" religious voice in the garden, has been from the very beginning, working to convince people that God is a Liar and His Word's can not be trusted, and that HIS commandments are a burden that makes men blind. It uses some of God's Word to convince others that it was God's Laws which define sin that have become obsolete, and not as HE tells us, the manner in which HIS Laws are administered and the manner in which sin is atoned for.

You are trying to promote popular religious doctrines which are no truth. This is why you can't or won't answer the questions I ask. Because the answer to my questions expose the false teaching. You don't think this, because deception is "Believing" things that are not true.

You don't "Believe" God made a Covenant with Levi on Israel's behalf. But God did As the scriptures show. Just because you don't believe some of His Word's, doesn't make them void. Paul said;
Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: (that means NO!!) yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Jer. 7 confirms this understanding.

22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

No, this part was "ADDED" because of transgressions.

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So God made a Covenant with Levi to provide for atonement, and teach people His Commandments and Ways. As HE Himself tells you, if you would just believe him.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32:26)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

This is why there were men still alive in Duet. 5.

The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

God provided for the atonement of these men's sins, that is why they are alive here to "Serve the Lord"..

This is where Paul get's His Teaching.

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


You are preaching that after they broke the Covenant He made with them when HE brought them out of Egypt, "Obey My Commandments, Statutes and Laws", that HE changed these Laws or took them away. But HE doesn't say that.

Ex. 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

The Law didn't change when God "ADDED" this Priesthood, and it didn't change when He removed this Priesthood.

To believe in your popular religion, I would have to ignore and reject all these Word's of God. I would have to reject the Christ's OWN DEFINITION of HIS Own New Covenant.

And for what? To prove God is a Liar? To prove God's Laws are a Yoke of Bondage that makes men Blind?

God already warned me of this doctrine through Eve, I know where it comes from. I'm hoping you might consider God's Covenant with Levi. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, have omitted this truth from their religion.

Studyman said:

You are preaching that after they broke the Covenant He made with them when HE brought them out of Egypt, "Obey My Commandments, Statutes and Laws", that HE changed these Laws or took them away. But HE doesn't say that.

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I am preaching no such thing.

The Old Covenant was in full effect until the day it was fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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BABerean2 said:

When Christ was talking to Nicodemus what did He mean when He used the term "born again", if He was not referring to being born again of the Spirit of God, which he also promised in John 14:26?


If you are attempting to produce more than one Gospel it is a huge problem, especially in reference to the New Covenant.

You are attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, which is a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


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I already explained what born again meant to Israel in my previous post, starting from their father Abraham.

Have you read it?

BABerean2 said:

I am preaching no such thing.

The Old Covenant was in full effect until the day it was fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

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Yes, the Levitical Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi was in effect "Til the Seed came". We are still to Love God with our hearts, and Love one other as we love our self and all that define these two Laws.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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Why do keep omitting the part of this chapter which details exactly what Law changed, and why it changed?

Studyman said:

Why do keep omitting the part of this chapter which details exactly what Law changed, and why it changed?

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Because of Colossians 2:16-17.


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