Temporal Salvation?

FreeGrace2 said:

Except Peter the apostle was described as having DENIED the Lord 3 times. Was he an unbeliever when he did that? Of course not.

In the following citations, all verses use the same Greek word for "deny" or "disown", regarding what Peter did 3 times.

Matt 26:34, 75 Mark 14:30 Luke 22:34, 61 John 13:38.

So, the word doesn't refer specifically to unbelievers. Unless one wants to argue that Peter still wasn't a believer until AFTER his 3 denials.

Mark 8:29 - And He asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered Him, “You are the Christ.”

So, yes, Peter WAS a believer BEFORE he denied the Lord 3 times.

Click to expand...

1) Peter wasn't silent in any of these occurrences! Just sayin'.

2) Yes, Peter was a "believer" and had confessed Christ as Messiah, but, the rest of the disciples were there as well and were instructed not to tell anyone that Jesus was the, including Judas. The implication is that the band of disciples also acknowledged the revelation given to Peter. Thus, Judas and the rest of the disciples also believed and later betrayed/abandoned/denied Jesus in some manner, but Judas was the only one who didn't return to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Lord. The point, again, that I am stressing is that it is the end of the matter that determines the final and eternal results.

Doug

TibiasDad said:

1) Peter wasn't silent in any of these occurrences! Just sayin'.

2) Yes, Peter was a "believer" and had confessed Christ as Messiah, but, the rest of the disciples were there as well and were instructed not to tell anyone that Jesus was the, including Judas. The implication is that the band of disciples also acknowledged the revelation given to Peter. Thus, Judas and the rest of the disciples so believed and later betrayed/abandoned/denied Jesus in some manner, but Judas was the only one who didn't return to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Lord. The point, again, that I am stressing is that it is the end of the matter that determines the final and eternal results.

Doug

Click to expand...

I agree with your closing statement but I don’t agree that Judas was a believer.

“But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64-65‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN said:

The concept of a person losing their salvation is purely from man’s perspective.

Click to expand...

Scripture is not written from man's perspective; it is the word of God and thus, necessarily the perspective of God!

BNR32FAN said:

The idea is that a person could be on the path to salvation then veer away from that path thus forfeiting the salvation he would’ve received had he stayed on the path.

Click to expand...

Which is precisely what Paul is saying in Romans 8:12-13.who we, as believers, choose to follow will determine the future results.

BNR32FAN said:

From God’s perspective or from the perspective of the book of life such a person was never saved to begin with because they must endure to the end in order to be written in the book of life.

Click to expand...

That cannot be demonstrated, for as you confirm in the remainder of your post, "Hence we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive eternal life. So we can’t actually receive eternal life until that’s been accomplished." To be on the road of salvation is to believe that that road is necessary , but to go off and take another road does not mean that you were never really on the road to salvation, it only means that you have not continued on that path. Only God can truly know the heart, so there is no certainly from our perspective, but my experience of watching people in their walls with Christ as demonstrated that some do indeed have genuine experiences with God but, due to neglect and the wiles of the Evil one, drift away and, if not repenting, will not "escape" the penalties for the "neglect of such a great salvation"! (Heb 2:1-3)

BNR32FAN said:

So when a person is said to have “lost his salvation” it doesn’t mean he had received eternal life then lost it. It means he had the hope of receiving eternal life and lost it. That’s all any of us have until we die or Christ returns is the hope of salvation. It’s not certain until our time in this world is done. Hence we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive eternal life. So we can’t actually receive eternal life until that’s been accomplished.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is the correct assessment of the whole! It is the way we finish the race that matters. (1Cor 9:24-ff, 2Tim 4:7, Gal 5:7, Acts 20:24, Heb 12:1)

Doug

BNR32FAN said:

I agree with your closing statement but I don’t agree that Judas was a believer.

“But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64-65‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but those who left and "no longer followed" (John 6:66; I find this eventual chapter and verse numbering to be so very ironic) could have stayed with Jesus, as the 12 did (including Judas at that time). This is not to say that they would have necessarily continued to the end, but some certainly did and perhaps, some, like Judas, did not!

Doug

TibiasDad said:

Scripture is not written from man's perspective; it is the word of God and thus, necessarily the perspective of God!

Click to expand...

each of the 4 gospel accounts are definitely from different perspectives which is why they show different points of view. That’s why they’re not identical. Even in the epistles were seeing each author’s perspective. This doesn’t mean that it is not the inspired word of God. God wanted these messages to be included.

This is Paul’s perspective not God’s.

“For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:11-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is just one of countless examples I found in less than a minute.

TibiasDad said:

Which is precisely what Paul is saying in Romans 8:12-13.who we, as believers, choose to follow will determine the future results.

Click to expand...

Yes I believe that is his message in Romans 6:15-16 as well.

BNR32FAN said:

each of the 4 gospel accounts are definitely from different perspectives which is why they show different points of view. That’s why they’re not identical. Even in the epistles were seeing each author’s perspective. This doesn’t mean that it is not the inspired word of God. God wanted these messages to be included.

This is Paul’s perspective not God’s.

“For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:11-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is just one of countless examples I found in less than a minute.

Click to expand...

I am not saying that the personalities and personal experiences have not shaped and expressed themselves in the wordings and anecdotal accounts of historical experiences, it is just that the truths revealed and taught by means of these things are necessarily God's perspective, even when Paul states "this is me speaking, not the Lord" for he did not sense any disagreement from the Spirit to caution him of sharing his perspective. Ultimately, all truth is from God's perspective, or it wouldn't be true!


Doug

TibiasDad said:

That cannot be demonstrated, for as you confirm in the remainder of your post, "Hence we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive eternal life. So we can’t actually receive eternal life until that’s been accomplished." To be on the road of salvation is to believe that that road is necessary , but to feed off and take another road does not mean that you were never really on the road to salvation, it only means that you have not continued on that path. Only God can truly know the heart, so there is no certainly from our perspective, but my experience of watching people in their walls with Christ as demonstrated that some do indeed have genuine experiences with God but, due to neglect and the wiles of the Evil one, drift away and, if not repenting, will not "escape" the penalties for the "neglect of such a great salvation"! (Heb 2:1-3)

Click to expand...

Yes I agree that if someone strays from the path to salvation it doesn’t mean they were never on it to begin with.

TibiasDad said:

1) Peter wasn't silent in any of these occurrences! Just sayin'.

Click to expand...

Why is it that you try so hard to imply that denying the Lord doesn't mean silence.

Didn't you read the verses I quoted where Jesus SAID that Peter would deny Him? And that the crow crowed AFTER Peter SAID that he didn't know Jesus?

2) Yes, Peter was a "believer" and had confessed Christ as Messiah, but, the rest of the disciples were there as well and were instructed not to tell anyone that Jesus was the, including Judas. The implication is that the band of disciples also acknowledged the revelation given to Peter. Thus, Judas and the rest of the disciples so believed and later betrayed/abandoned/denied Jesus in some manner, but Judas was the only one who didn't return to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Lord. The point, again, that I am stressing is that it is the end of the matter that determines the final and eternal results.
Doug

Click to expand...

Nothing in this paragraph supports your "end of the matter".

Here is the fact, again.

2 Tim 2:12b is about denying the Lord.
Peter said he didn't know Jesus and Jesus prophesied that he would DENY Him, which he did. All the while speaking words.

If "final and eternal results" isn't determined until the end, then you are pushing the very false doctrine that you are saved by what you do.

Jesus taught that believers (present tense) have (present tense) eternal life. That proves that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes. For WHEN one believes, they are believing in the present tense.

And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Why don't you believe what Jesus taught? And you're a pastor??

Does your congregation know that you don't believe the teaching of Jesus?

TibiasDad said:

Scripture is not written from man's perspective; it is the word of God and thus, necessarily the perspective of God!

Click to expand...

Scripture was written FOR man's perspective. 2 Tim 3:16,17

Which is precisely what Paul is saying in Romans 8:12-13.who we, as believers, choose to follow will determine the future results.

Click to expand...

I challenge you to quote the specific verse that says what you claim.

FreeGrace2 said:

Scripture was written FOR man's perspective. 2 Tim 3:16,17


I challenge you to quote the specific verse that says what you claim.

Click to expand...

Really is a blessing to read your defense of His truth FreeGrace. Lot's of false doctrine and attacks on His Grace, mercy, justice and righteousness going on in this thread and others.

FreeGrace2 said:

Scripture was written FOR man's perspective. 2 Tim 3:16,17


I challenge you to quote the specific verse that says what you claim.

Click to expand...

1) I didn't say anything about it not being written for man's perspective, I was saying it is not ultimately written from man's perspective. Yes, the human writers certainly write of things as they have experienced the grace of God, but the truth of which they write is never just their perspective. It is universal truth because it is from God's perspective.

2) Rom 8:12-13 If your fingers are broken, ask Siri, she'll read it for you.


Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

Nothing in this paragraph supports your "end of the matter".

Click to expand...

Was Peter, at the end of his life, denying Jesus?

Was Judas, at the end of his life, denying Jesus?

Where did they end up?

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

Why is it that you try so hard to imply that denying the Lord doesn't mean silence.

Click to expand...

I'm not! I'm saying that Peter wasn't silent in his denying, but very audibly vocal. You said Peter was silent!

FreeGrace2 said:

You are in DENIAL, sir. Peter denied the Lord by his silence. And by silence, I mean he failed to acknowledge that he knew Him or had been with Him.

Click to expand...

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

Why do you make a claim that you know nothing about? Where have I "neglected" v.11? I didn't mention it because I was focusing on v.12.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also deny us;

The "if" in v.11 is a first class condition, since ALL believers HAVE "died with Him". Or prove your disagreement if you do disagree. iow, v.11 is another promise of eternal security. Since (2st class condition) all believers HAVE died with Him, then all believers WILL LIVE WITH HIM. This is a promise of eternal security.

Then Paul goes on in v.12 to teach about what eternity will have; reward for the faithful and denial of reward for the unfaithful.

But this refutes your notion that unfaithfulness will result in going to hell.

As if a new creation, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, sealed with the Holy Spirit as God's own possession, possessing ETERNAL life, can perish.

But Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.

Can you prove that the word "never" can ever include the meaning of "possibly" or "sometimes" or "maybe"?

Click to expand...

I don't see any sign of "classes of conditions". And your mumbo jumbo is nonsensical, calling verse 11 both a "first class condition," and a "2st class condition" !

Furthermore, you cannot focus on verse twelve without verse eleven because they are a singular thought grammatically, thus if life is not a reward, hermeneutically we must treat reigning with him in the same manner.

The second portion of verse twelve, is the beginning of a new thought that is completed in the thirteenth verse. Both sets of couplets are pointing to a final state of reality. That's why Paul says "we will live/reign with him" or that God "will disown us".

This said, what is meant by "if we died with him"? Certainly Paul's words in both Romans and Galatians about being "crucified with him" come to mind and are very apropos. But given the contextual pairing of the concept of dying and denying, my mind goes to another pairing of these two concepts. In Matthew 16, we read Jesus's words to Peter, right after both Peter's declaration of Jesus being the Messiah, and Peter being called Satan by Jesus, saying;

"24Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save their life f will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

I see several interesting points here:

• A disciple must deny himself and pick up his own cross and follow Jesus: this meaning that one who actively denies Christ/God cannot be/is not a disciple, and the pick up of his cross is a "till death" commitment.
• That only a life lost for Christ will be found.
• That Jesus clearly places the finding of life in the same train of thought in which he speaks of rewarding all people at the judgement when he returns. The only thing that rewards can be grammatically predicated to is either gaining/finding or losing/forfeiting their life/soul!
• This reward is based on, and I quote Jesus, "according to what they have done." This does not mean that it is not based on Grace, but it does define a working relationship between the grace of God which is unmerited, and the necessity of human response in a particular manner.
• Thus we must deny (die to) ourselves (not deny God) and take up our own cross and follow (human action that is necessary) to the logical end of our lives (enduring to the end of our time in earth)

Doug

WordSword said:

Hi and thanks for the interesting comments! It's my understanding that since God knows who will choose salvation, their names have been in the Book for as long as they've been on His mind, which of course is from eternity past (from everlasting - He has always known). My understanding of the "strait gate" and "narrow way" (Mat 7:13, 14) is that salvation has been entered into upon entering this gate, thus "the way" is descriptive concerning the walk of those who are "saved" (eternally redeemed).

Click to expand...

Bless you friend but there are also some who walk in the Way for a while but then stray from Him.

Gr8Grace said:

Really is a blessing to read your defense of His truth FreeGrace. Lot's of false doctrine and attacks on His Grace, mercy, justice and righteousness going on in this thread and others.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

TibiasDad said:

Was Peter, at the end of his life, denying Jesus?

Click to expand...

Keep missing the point. Peter DID deny Jesus, and not by being silent. Why do you keep ignoring that Peter actually denied Jesus?

Was Judas, at the end of his life, denying Jesus?

Click to expand...

Irrelevant. Judas never believed in Jesus as Messiah. He was an opportunistic thief.

Where did they end up?

Doug

Click to expand...

Peter was a believer and went to heaven. Judas was an unbeliever and went to hell.

TibiasDad said:

I'm not! I'm saying that Peter wasn't silent in his denying, but very audibly vocal. You said Peter was silent!

Click to expand...

This is what I said:
"You are in DENIAL, sir. Peter denied the Lord by his silence. And by silence, I mean he failed to acknowledge that he knew Him or had been with Him."

My comment was clear. I NEVER said Peter was silent by saying nothing. He denied the Lord by SAYING that he didn't know Jesus.

I explained myself, but you just don't seem to understand plain words.