What are the prosperity gospel's thoughts on Job, Jeremiah, and the Apostle Paul?

Lavaduder · Aug 15, 2020

According to them they say that Prosperity & Health means you are in correct with God. I am curious as to what they think of Job, patience in suffering. Jeremiah the weeping prophet, and Paul who changed his ways only to receive beatings and persecution.

Bobber · Aug 15, 2020

Lavaduder said:
According to them they say that Prosperity & Health means you are in correct with God.

I'd suggest that's extremely misleading how you're putting that. People can die and not have a dime of worldly goods and be "correct" with God because they're clothed in the righteousness of God through Christ. Such doesn't mean the Lord won't say to many of us I would have YES even blessed you in a material sense while you were on the earth.Maybe not meaning we'd be super rich by earthly standards but perhaps we could have had more provision then we did.

I am curious as to what they think of Job, patience in suffering.

Well if you're going to talk about Job then let's talk about Job. I suppose he could handle riches where they wouldn't diminish his devotion to God or else I doubt he would have been blessed with them to begin with. Job 1: 2 states he was the richest man in all the east and it goes on to say God made him that way. Job 1:10 Yes God allowed it to all depart from him BUT he did restore it back to the measure of twice as much. Job 42:10

Jeremiah the weeping prophet, and Paul who changed his ways only to receive beatings and persecution.

It's a fair question to ask but it does require a willingness to understand there's a certain spirit of freedom or oppression that hold sway over kingdoms of the earth at certain times. For instance it's quite easy to build a business as a Christian and have God bless it as compared to a time that if you don't take a mark of the beast you can't buy or sell. Even Paul though said that he knew how to be abased but also to abound whether he has little of much he never let it steal his joy. He knew one thing though whatever God has actually called him to do he'd have the means to do it and I think that's true prosperity anyway.

Hmm · Aug 15, 2020

I think sometimes the prosperity gospel message is used to assuage guilt. I remember once working as a volunteer at a kind of soup kitchen for the homeless and one of the other volunteers, who I knew personally and knew him to be very rich, could only relate to the users on a "spiritual" level and told everyone he spoke to that they were homeless because of spiritual reasons and it was a call to get right with God. As you can imagine that crass ignorance didn't go down too well and the guy never came back again!

com7fy8 · Aug 15, 2020

Not all people preaching prosperity say the same things.

If someone preaches that you God wants you to be rich, he or she might be only trying to get you to send in money in order for God to bless you in return; so such ones might simply ignore Paul and Jeremiah and Job, because they know plenty of people will not know about that and they will send their money.

Others might believe the Bible really means for us to be rich and healthy if we are God's children. And they have scriptures which they understand say this; and they believe they need to speak this in prayer and give in order to be blessed. So, they do. And they might have an explanation, or not, about Paul and Jeremiah and Job. Maybe ones would say, those men went through trials, first, but then became rich and healthy afterward. Ones with this approach might call themselves "Word of Faith"; but not all Word of Faith people have the same message. So, I think I should let each person speak for oneself, and not assume all of a certain group or name are alike.

I see how Jesus preaches prosperity >

"Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time---houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions---and in the age to come, eternal life." (in Mark 10:29-30)

What I see here is Jesus is saying our prosperity is not merely in money and our own health, but we have bigger and bigger family in Jesus . . . people to love as family. Sharing in God's love is included in the greatest prosperity a person can have, and this is in sharing and caring with one another; so this prosperity is not of some individual isolated with his or her own riches and little in-crowd.

And I have a poem-song about how God Himself is our greatest blessing >

You are our Best of Everything,
supply of all our need;
to You may be all praises sing;
You heed our every need.
We could not first love You,
but first You brought us through >
You are our sure excuse
to trust in none but You.
Oh, though we do stray in expectations,
You do not forsake Your sheep,
but keep us in Your chastening
til we obey Your rest and peace . . .
share Your true things with You
with whom we have to do . . .
turn vain things to Your use,
depend on none but You
to draw us to that adoration
intimate with joy so sweet,
that we might share in intercession's
love and groanings at Christ's feet,
in perfect love with You,
with one another, too . . .
forgetting all behind Jesus
to stay our minds on You,
and forgiving all less than Jesus
to depend on none but You,
and forsaking all below Jesus
to stake all our claim in You
who are our Best of Everything.

And I would say Paul considered his true prosperity to be how he could be content in any situation > Philippians 4:11-12.

And God told Abraham how he would be a blessing. He would not only have his own wealth, but he would be a blessing to others. If we love others as ourselves, our prosperity which we deeply value is how God includes us in loving and blessing others.

Kenny'sID · Aug 15, 2020

Lavaduder said:
According to them they say that Prosperity & Health means you are in correct with God. I am curious as to what they think of Job, patience in suffering. Jeremiah the weeping prophet, and Paul who changed his ways only to receive beatings and persecution.

And there are also the the rich non believers who prosper with great health.

I personally stay away from any of the prosperity preachers. I do think if we love God, use the good sense he gave us and we invest right, we can do quite well or even get rich. I also think there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it's good honest work and it doesn't hurt our Christian walk.

ViaCrucis · Aug 15, 2020

What is the prosperity "gospel"? It's basically the antithesis of the Christian Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

Lavaduder · Aug 15, 2020

Hmmm! said:
I think sometimes the prosperity gospel message is used to assuage guilt. I remember once working as a volunteer at a kind of soup kitchen for the homeless and one of the other volunteers, who I knew personally and knew him to be very rich, could only relate to the users on a "spiritual" level and told everyone he spoke to that they were homeless because of spiritual reasons and it was a call to get right with God. As you can imagine that crass ignorance didn't go down too well and the guy never came back again!

Kenny'sID said:
And there are also the the rich non believers who prosper with great health.

I personally stay away from any of the prosperity preachers. I do think if we love God, use the good sense he gave us and we invest right, we can do quite well or even get rich. I also think there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it's good honest work and it doesn't hurt our Christian walk.

ViaCrucis said:
What is the prosperity "gospel"? It's basically the antithesis of the Christian Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

We can talk about the prosperity gospel as a fraud for an eternity. The goal of the thread was what the group thought about these individuals.

Lavaduder · Aug 15, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Not all people preaching prosperity say the same things.

If someone preaches that you God wants you to be rich, he or she might be only trying to get you to send in money in order for God to bless you in return; so such ones might simply ignore Paul and Jeremiah and Job, because they know plenty of people will not know about that and they will send their money.

Others might believe the Bible really means for us to be rich and healthy if we are God's children. And they have scriptures which they understand say this; and they believe they need to speak this in prayer and give in order to be blessed. So, they do. And they might have an explanation, or not, about Paul and Jeremiah and Job. Maybe ones would say, those men went through trials, first, but then became rich and healthy afterward. Ones with this approach might call themselves "Word of Faith"; but not all Word of Faith people have the same message. So, I think I should let each person speak for oneself, and not assume all of a certain group or name are alike.

I see how Jesus preaches prosperity >

"Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time---houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions---and in the age to come, eternal life." (in Mark 10:29-30)

What I see here is Jesus is saying our prosperity is not merely in money and our own health, but we have bigger and bigger family in Jesus . . . people to love as family. Sharing in God's love is included in the greatest prosperity a person can have, and this is in sharing and caring with one another; so this prosperity is not of some individual isolated with his or her own riches and little in-crowd.

And I have a poem-song about how God Himself is our greatest blessing >

You are our Best of Everything,
supply of all our need;
to You may be all praises sing;
You heed our every need.
We could not first love You,
but first You brought us through >
You are our sure excuse
to trust in none but You.
Oh, though we do stray in expectations,
You do not forsake Your sheep,
but keep us in Your chastening
til we obey Your rest and peace . . .
share Your true things with You
with whom we have to do . . .
turn vain things to Your use,
depend on none but You
to draw us to that adoration
intimate with joy so sweet,
that we might share in intercession's
love and groanings at Christ's feet,
in perfect love with You,
with one another, too . . .
forgetting all behind Jesus
to stay our minds on You,
and forgiving all less than Jesus
to depend on none but You,
and forsaking all below Jesus
to stake all our claim in You
who are our Best of Everything.

And I would say Paul considered his true prosperity to be how he could be content in any situation > Philippians 4:11-12.

And God told Abraham how he would be a blessing. He would not only have his own wealth, but he would be a blessing to others. If we love others as ourselves, our prosperity which we deeply value is how God includes us in loving and blessing others.

So in your terms prosperity does not equal wealth & health. But blessings, and spiritual gifts.

Kenny'sID · Aug 15, 2020

Lavaduder said:
We can talk about the prosperity gospel as a fraud for an eternity. The goal of the thread was what the group thought about these individuals.

You just quoted what I thought of them, I think so little of them I like to stay away from them.

Your comment makes little sense, what if we/the group think they are frauds?
Are we not to post that?

Lavaduder · Aug 15, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
You just quoted what I thought of them, I think so little of them I like to stay away from them.

Your comment makes little sense, what if we/the group think they are frauds?
Are we not to post that?

I am trying to gather information on JOB, JEREMIAH, and PAUL. From a prosperity gospel perspective. It seems like an obvious loop hole their believe system. How can this health wealth thing work if the Bible has instances of people suffering for God with no benefits in sight?

Kenny'sID · Aug 15, 2020

Lavaduder said:
How can this health wealth thing work if the Bible has instances of people suffering for God with no benefits in sight?

It can't, and like in my first post here where I agree with you, there are simply too many holes in it. It's about their churches making an income/scamming the people.

I guess I'm not dwelling on your scriptures there, because there are so many other things that point to it just not fitting into Gods plan in anyway shape or form. IMO, they are some of the worst of the false prophets the bible predicted would come.

com7fy8 · Aug 16, 2020

Lavaduder said:
Paul who changed his ways only to receive beatings and persecution.

Paul did not only get beatings and rejection from evil people.

"But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children." (1 Thessalonians 2:7)

So, he discovered loving . . . God's way of family caring and sharing. And he was not alone; he had others who shared with him in his troubles while they also shared with him in how he loved the ones who became adopted to be children of God.

A minute of relating in God's love with one another does us more good than billions of universes of gold and silver could . . . I am offering from experience. And it is written >

"Your lovingkindness is better than life" (in Psalm 63:3).

God's love does us more deep good, than any and all human health and wealth could.

Lavaduder said:
So in your terms prosperity does not equal wealth & health. But blessings, and spiritual gifts.

Not just blessings, but blessing . . . all-loving blessing, having hope for any and all people > "love hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7) > like Jesus on the cross was prospering by having hope for any and all people.

And Jesus on Calvary was pleasing our Father > as "a sweet-smelling aroma", we have in Ephesians 5:2.

So, included > we prosper God, by pleasing Him, obeying Him. Prosperity is about how God is prospering in how He shares with us and includes us in getting all He desires, including Romans 8:29.

So, if someone is only or mainly talking about wealth and health for an individual > this is not all-loving wealth and health, but centered only on "me, myself, and I". The attention of prosperity needs to first be to loving God with all we've got, and God being blessed . . . but this means we will be sharing with Him in how He is blessed! >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

There are ones who can make a major project of criticizing you-centered prosperity, but they themselves do not deal with how the Bible says God desires for us to prosper. They do not know or talk about how God's gentle and quiet love makes us pleasing to Him, or about how this love's "incorruptible beauty" keeps us from being corrupted by lusts and anger and fear and burn-out and bitterness and unforgiveness and other spiritual and mental and emotional chaos.

But God's word guarantees how if we obey how He says to pray > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7) No amount of human health and prosperity can guard our hearts and our minds from Satanic things of spiritual and emotional and mental chaos!!

Therefore, there is prosperity which is Biblical. And so, one trick of false prosperity preachers is to get people's attention away from what is Biblical prosperity, and tempt us to self-righteously criticize them so our attention is away from seeking God for Himself and all He desires to share with us. Satan uses what is counterfeit to give what is real a bad name.

Possibly, you can note how a lot of prosperity discussion is only or mainly about how certain people are doing it wrong. This can be a trick to keep us from seeking God and how He desires to share with us in true and Biblical prosperity.

There is good prosperity which needs our attention > for one example >

"Now godliness with contentment is great gain." (1 Timothy 6:6)

"And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content." (1 Timothy 6:8)

"be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5)

I personally understand this means how we are perfectly satisfied in God's love which has us in family caring and sharing with Him and one another. This love has Heaven's own blessed rest and beauty and goodness with personal sharing . . . not only making us feel good.

And I notice how Paul says for the rich to be "willing to share", in 1 Timothy 6:17 > not only giving, but sharing, I see through this. Ones can give in order to get rid of people from their minds and consciences. But Jesus wants personal sharing and caring as His family.

Lavaduder · Aug 16, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Paul did not only get beatings and rejection from evil people.

"But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children." (1 Thessalonians 2:7)

So, he discovered loving . . . God's way of family caring and sharing. And he was not alone; he had others who shared with him in his troubles while they also shared with him in how he loved the ones who became adopted to be children of God.

A minute of relating in God's love with one another does us more good than billions of universes of gold and silver could . . . I am offering from experience. And it is written >

"Your lovingkindness is better than life" (in Psalm 63:3).

God's love does us more deep good, than any and all human health and wealth could.

So by Paul's example. Prosperity comes from God and fellow believers loving you. I am I getting that right?

P.S. What about Jeremiah? That's the kicker question here.

Bobber · Aug 16, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
What is the prosperity "gospel"? It's basically the antithesis of the Christian Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

Not really. It all depends how you mean the term and how far you take it.

The gospel means good news but the good news of what? What is in our Covenant. Eph 2:12 So what is in our Covenant? Provision for sins to be forgiven? Yes. Provision to be given a new heart or nature as in becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus? Yes. What else? Healing as well? Many believe so. What about prosperity in any measure of the word? Does God say ANYTHING about meeting needs and material blessings to be given to us by God, I mean anything at all? I'd say it does so what has to be determined is to what measure and degree we can consider it does. That aspect of the Covenant can only be called God adding to you or prospering you.

com7fy8 · Aug 16, 2020

Lavaduder said:
So by Paul's example. Prosperity comes from God and fellow believers loving you. I am I getting that right?

yes

Lavaduder said:
P.S. What about Jeremiah? That's the kicker question here.

He prospered by being with God, though he might not have known of anyone loving him. He was prospered by the fact that he was loving, though others were not loving him, I would say. Here is what Paul says about how he loved >

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)

He prospered by loving so unconditionally . . . like how God "is rich in mercy" > in Ephesians 2:4. God is prosperous by being "rich in mercy"; and this is our example > "Blessed are the merciful," Jesus says in Matthew 5:7. In my opinion, "Blessed" can be similar to "Prosperous" > "Prosperous" or "Rich" are the merciful. Because by being "merciful" - - - the way God's love has us being "merciful" > we are in intimacy with God Himself sharing this with us; and intimacy with God is great prosperity.

So, yes being loved genuinely is included in the most valuable of prosperity. But, even more, is how we are loving. It is more blessed to love, than to be loved, perhaps we could say

What are the prosperity gospel's thoughts on Job, Jeremiah, and the Apostle Paul?

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