Covenant and New Covenant theology
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keras
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The necessity of having 2 peoples of God, is a vital requirement of the 'rapture to heaven of the Church' theory.
But there is no scripture that actually says this will happen. Also the people currently living in a small part of the holy Land, are soon to be removed and only a Christian remnant will remain. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7
Jesus made it perfectly clear, there is only ONE people of God; John 17:20-23, and Paul; Ephesian 2:11-18, 4:4-6
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keras
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The one, faithful people of God is clear because that is what the Bible says. 1 Peter 2:9-10
The Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:43 They cursed themselves. Matthew 27:25
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claninja
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I am distinguishing between those who are in covenant with God and those who are not. Under the old covenant, this was the nation of Israel. This was a shadow pointing to the new covenant and the body of Christ. The old covenant is gone, and has been superseded by the new covenant. Thus, God's people are now Jew and gentile who are in Christ, while those that are not God's people are Jew and gentile who are not in Christ.
This is why I asked you, when unbelieving Jews repent and return to the Lord, are they grafted into the same root or a different root than the gentiles?
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Guojing
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An unbelieving Jew today who follows 1 Cor 15:1-4 will be in the Body of Christ.
Together with the rest of us, he will be raptured into heaven before the tribulation begins for Israel.
Some people believe that they will be part of the 144,000 though. I don't have that view but I can understand why they might believe that.
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keras
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"raptured to heaven'? 'tribulation for Israel'?
Where do you get those fanciful ideas? They are not in any Bible that I have seen.
Rather than removal, we are told to endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10
The Great Tribulation is against all who take the mark of the 'beast'. Revelation 9:20-21
Please do not make wild assertions, without proper scriptural support.
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The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.
But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.
The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet. That will happen after the Millennium, as Revelation 21:1-7 says.
There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.
John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....
John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......
John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10
We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:
Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......
We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.
Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.
You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.
I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.
Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, on earth where we belong. Revelation 5:9-10
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Pastor John Hagee has claimed modern Orthodox Jews do not need Christ, because they are under a different covenant with God.
This is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.
Some Dispensationalists come very close to claiming the same thing.
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What if one of the deceptions Jesus warned of, from men who come in His Name, who claim HE is truly the Christ, is a deception taught regarding HIS NEW Covenant?
If I were to go to the Creator the New Covenant and listen to how HE, Himself, Defines it, I find a whole different Covenant than is taught by "many" religious men who come in His Name.
Let's see how God Himself defines HIS Own New Covenant.
Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
OK, here it is!! From the Holy Scriptures itself. No Levite Priests or modern preachers to define it for us. The Christ of the Bible, in HIS Tender Mercy, tells us exactly what HIS NEW Covenant is. It's almost as if HE knew religious men would pollute it so HE wanted to make sure and go on record as to what HIS New Covenant is.
"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
So then if this is a NEW Covenant, how were God's Laws Administered before "After those days"? If HE Himself, administers HIS LAWS in the New Covenant, then who administered them in the Old Covenant?
Did God make a Covenant with Israel to administer God's Laws on Mt. Sinai? Or did He make a Covenant with Levi to Minister before Him on Israel's behalf? So before "after those days" His People "received HIS Law" by the Levite Priest. Was there any other way? Could I go get the Book of the Law and read it for myself? No, according to the Holy Scriptures God made a Covenant with Levi for the administration of His Laws, and now God is saying that "after those days" Levi won't be the administrator any more, the Christ Himself will write God's Laws on the hearts of His People.
If you can find Scriptures who show this understanding as wrong, please provide them.
How else does God, the Creator of God's New Covenant, define it?
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
So again, if God Himself is going to atone for the sins of His People "After those days", (New Covenant) then how were the sin's of the People forgiven before this time? (Old Covenant)
Did God make a Covenant with Israel to atone for their own sins? Or did God make a Covenant with Levi, separating Him from the rest of the Tribes of Israel, to administer God's Laws and perform sacrificial "works" for the justification and atonement of men who transgressed God's Commandments?
So we see here that the Word of God which became Flesh created a New Covenant consisting of 2 things.
#1. How God's Laws are administered.
#2. How Transgressions of these Laws are forgiven.
Both exclusive duties of the Levitical Priesthood. So it seems according to the God of the bible, it was the Levitical Priesthood which "changed". A Priesthood "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham obeyed, because of Transgressions, "til the Seed should come". A Priesthood which "foreshadowed" what the Messiah would do for HIS People. A Law Abraham did not have, as Levi wasn't even born until long after Abraham's death.
Yet, according to "many" who come in His Name, God's New Covenant wasn't about the administration of God's Laws, No, they teach is was about the elimination of them, the replacement of them.
Heb. 7-10 are chapters in the New Testament which further define and explain the New Covenant.
Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) (Before "after those days") what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
So here is the only verse in the entire Bible which mentions a change in the Law because of the New Covenant of God. The Christ, again in His Tender Mercy, defines in great detail exactly what the "change in the Law" is and why. Almost as if HE knew there would be "other voices" in the garden who would try to convince men that God took His Law away "after those days".
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
God's Priesthood Covenant was exclusively given to Levi on Mt. Sinai. No member of another tribe of Israel could partake in God's Priesthood. For Jesus, from the Tribe of Judah, to become the High Priest it was necessary to change the Priesthood Law regarding;
#1. Who was to administer God's Laws
#2. How Transgression of these Laws are forgiven.
The Old Covenant that became obsolete was the Levitical Priesthood, with it's sacrificial "works of the Law" for atonement, and the Levites exclusive ownership of the Book of the Law that they alone, according to the Covenant God made with them, could even touch.
In the New Covenant we have access to God's Law directly. No more Levite Priests or preachers to corrupt it as they did. We now have a High Priest who shed HIS Own Blood once and for all. No more taking a turtle dove to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works" for the forgiveness of our sins. No more temples made of wood and stone, because God's Temple is in the minds of His People.
It seems clear when we read His Definition of His New Covenant.
But in the religions of the land I am born into, there is a different new covenant taught. A covenant not found in the Holy Scriptures. A Covenant where God eliminates His Laws, instead of writing them on our hearts. A covenant that destroys the Law and Prophets, something Jesus said not to even think.
I don't think we should reject or refuse God's New Covenant in favor of a covenant taught by the "other voice" in the garden.
There is a huge difference between how God defines His Own New Covenant, and how ancient religious tradition of men defines His New Covenant.
I think we should consider these things in a discussion about "New Covenant Theology".
Food for thought
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Many quote Matthew 5:17-18, but ignore the rest of the passage.
Several times in Matthew 5 Christ quotes the Old Covenant and then adds..."But I say...". Here He contrasts the two covenants.
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
There are several places were the New Covenant is contrasted to the Old Covenant.
See 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, which compares the "ministry of death engraved on stones" to the New Covenant.
The Galatians were told to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31.
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.
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Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
An important part of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit master teacher promised by Christ in John 14:26, and found fulfilled below for all of those who are a part of the New Covenant.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
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I don't think this verse makes void God's Definition of HIS NEW Covenant.
Another false teaching in the land today, is the doctrine which preaches the "them of old time" in Matt. 5 is God. This is done to promote a religious belief that the God of the Bible had unjust and incomplete Laws, and Jesus came to replace them.
The Scriptural truth, however, is the "them of Old Time" Jesus spoke of were the Shepherds of Old who God placed over His People. Shepherds who led God's People astray. Who "Omitted" the "weightier matters of the law", and taught for doctrines the commandments of Men. The Christ, before coming to earth as a man, speaks to this through HIS Prophet Malachi.
Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Jesus, before becoming a man, taught not to commit adultery, but also taught not to lust after a woman in your heart. The "them of old time taught one, while omitting the more important command from Him.
Prov. 6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. 25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
You can go down through the list in Matt. 5 and find in every case the Christ taught "both" what the "them of old time" quoted from Him, and also the teaching the Christ gave in the Law and Prophets, that they omitted from their religion.
Proverbs 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the Lord, and he shall save thee. "Turn your cheek"
Proverbs 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink. "Love your enemy"
Lev. 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Duet. 23:21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.
22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee.
23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; (Ya, Ya, Nay, Nay) even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
So how is this an example of God's Laws being different than Jesus' Laws given that each time Jesus said "but I say", we find He is recalling His Own Teaching as the Word of God ?
If a man has been convinced that Loving God with all your heart, and Loving your neighbor as yourself is a "ministry of death", what can I say. Only that I would hope you might consider how sins were forgiven between Moses and the advent of the Coming of the Lamb of God. Prior to His Coming, it was required, by Priesthood Law, that animals be put to death each time a man sinned.
That was the Old Covenant. The New Covenant, even more Glorious, is the Ministration of the Spirit. That is, our sins forgiven once and for all by a Spiritual God we can not see, requiring Faith, not the sacrificial "works" of a temporary Priesthood, which required us to purchase our atonement by offering an animal for our sins. (Law of Works vs. Law of Faith)
This scripture does not make God's Definition of His OWN New Covenant Void, in my view, rather, it provides even more evidence of the Truth about the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant. Not based on ancient religious traditions of men, but by the Word of God Himself.
How is Love God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor, with all that hang on them "bondage"? You have been taught this, but it isn't true according to the holy Scriptures.
Being dependent on religious men to hear God's Word is a "covenant of bondage". To have to rely on religious men to perform sacrificial "works of the law" before your sins can be forgiven is a "covenant of bondage". Abraham's sins were forgiven "Apart" from this Priesthood Covenant with Levi.
My friend, it wasn't God's Laws that were the problem, it was those men who HE placed to administer them, and to provide "Works" for forgiveness from transgressing them.
That is the Covenant God Himself said would change "After those days". The examples you used do not make God's Definition of His New Covenant void, they support and promote exactly how HE defined them..It is religious men who have caused "many" to believe otherwise, not the scriptures you posted.
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, (Not a sanctuary made of wood and stone) and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Noah, Caleb, Abraham, Rehab, Daniel Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Stephen. All these examples of those Faithful to God. Examples we are to consider as this chapter starts.
1 Wherefore seeing we also compassedare about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Examples we have access now because we don't have to go find a Levite Priest to read about God, or take a goat to the Levite Priest for our sins to be forgiven. Examples written exclusively for us, for our admonition. Examples Abel didn't have.
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
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What I am doing here is showing you how the Christ Himself defines His own New Covenant. He said HIS Word's are Spirit and Life. They are truth, and they are life.
But what if the warnings of this same Christ are also true, along with HIS Own Definition of HIS new Covenant? What if there are religious men, who come in His Name, who are preaching deceptions about God?
Things like God's New Covenant is the replacement of His Laws? Religious Men who preach the "them of old time" is God and not those who God made a Priesthood Covenant with?
Isn't this the decision we all must make? As even Abraham had to make? Do we follow the religions of the land we are born into, or do we turn to the God of the Bible and reject all the "other voices" in the garden? And we live in a New Covenant time, as the Christ Promised, when we can go directly to the Christ of the Bible, and not have HIS Word filtered by religious men.
It was hard for those religious men in Jesus' time to hear the Truth of the Gospel which was taught to the Children of Israel, but most didn't believe it.
It will likewise be hard for us to accept the truth of the Scriptures who are entangled in the religious doctrines and traditions of the land we were born into.
What is more important, that we are anointed with the Word's of the Christ, which HE says are Spirit and Life? Or is it more important that our religious doctrines and traditions be promoted regardless of what the Christ of the Bible actually says?
I think these are good, sometimes uncomfortable, but good discussions to have among men.
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I am not the one who said it.
It was the Apostle Paul.
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
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You were speaking of the New Covenant VS. the Old Covenant. If we are not aligned with the Christ of the Bible where HIS New Covenant is concerned, how can we know what the "Root" is or why it's Holy?
As I see it, the Root was Holy in the very beginning and it was still Holy in Jesus' time, it was still Holy in Paul's time even years after Jesus ascended, and it is still Holy today as well.
Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
If Jesus, (Firstfruit) by walking in the "Way of the Lord" as HE described before becoming a man, was considered Holy, then the "way of the Lord" (Root) HE walked in is also Holy. So then the Branches which "walk even as He walked" (Caleb, Daniel, Elisha, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, etc.) are also Holy. But if some of the Branches didn't believe in the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in, and were broken off because of their unbelief, and the Gentile replaced them by following the "Way of the Lord" (grafted in among them) and walked "even as HE walked" (partakest of the Root)
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
The Root is what is Holy. Anyone "grafted" into it, is considered Holy as well.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Same Root)
24 For if thou (Gentile) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
So according to Paul there is only ONE Holy Root for both Jews and Gentiles. Rehab shows this was true in the Law and Prophets, and Acts 15 shows this was true in the New Testament when Peter turned the Gentiles away from religious men, and directly to the Law of Moses, as Jesus also instructed him in Matt. 23: 1,2.
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