Total Depravity

BNR32FAN said:

That’s not what total depravity teaches. Total depravity teaches that ALL MEN are totally deprived until God’s grace has been bestowed upon them. No one is born a believer, except for JTB perhaps.

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com7fy8 said:

"With men it is impossible" (in Mark 10:27)

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

Therefore, I need to totally depend on God, and not worship and glorify my own will as having what it takes to get itself to choose what is right. It is wise to depend on God, instead, and never trust myself, at all.

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

Jesus would know why we need to deny ourselves. And I personally understand that my will is included in my self. Only by means of God and His grace am I able to even get started in anything that is right.

In case your will is really capable of choosing what is good, right now choose to trust God to have you constantly obeying Him in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

After all, we are called to constantly submit to how our Father rules us in His own peace; so if He really has made us with wills which can get themselves to choose this . . . it is wise not to worship any excuse not to.

But in case only God is able to change us to be functional in His grace > it is written >

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet from the heart you obeyed that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

But Jeremiah 17:9 says >

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
.And desperately wicked;
.Who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

To me, this does not seem to be saying a wicked person's heart is capable of repentance. And I mean apart from God. But with God a person becomes capable. And this, by the way, starts with Jesus on the cross . . . not wicked people dying for their own sins. We can see how well evil people can die for their own sins . . . not exactly "a sweet-smelling aroma" like Jesus > Ephesians 5:2.

So, I would say there is no way an evil person's "desperately wicked" and "deceitful" heart changed itself to will to obey God > "But God be thanked".

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Running2win said:

Is it unjust that God made some people that will not choose Him out of their own free will?

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Neostarwcc said:

As promised, here is my thread on Total Depravity. I've been doing a lot of research on this subject over the last 3 weeks or so because I wanted to get as much information as possible into my topics on the 5 points of Calvinism. In case you do not know what Total Depravity is, it is one of the five points of Calvinism. It's a teaching that, mankind ever since the fall has been unable and unwilling to go to God for their salvation or to be Godly of any sort. So, basically It's a theology that says that everyone in the OT and NT from Noah to the Apostle Paul ...etc and all who were saved after them had to have their hearts regenerated by God before they could be saved or do anything Godly of the sort because of their fallen sin nature.

To prove this we have to first turn to a few Major people in the bible including the Apostle Paul, Jesus Christ, The prophet Isaiah, King David, and Yahweh himself (Commonly believed in Christianity to be Jesus). We'll start with Paul in the book of Romans. I will be using the ESV to defend my points on the five points of Calvinism. In Romans 3:9-18 Paul says quoting Psalm 14:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless no one does good, not even one.” Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery; and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


In these verses of Romans Paul teaches quoting David that mankind in their fleshly nature, do not seek after God. And it's not just some people in history, it's ALL people in history. All have turned aside, nobody does good not even one person. They do not fear God, they do not even worry about God. Think about it, before you became a Christian did you care about or fear God? I sure didn't I didn't even believe he existed. Before you became a Christian did you want to live a Godly life? I sure didn't, I loved being in my sins and sinning brought me joy and happiness (or what I thought was joy and happiness anyway). Before God came to you, did you want to read the Bible? I sure didn't, I read the Bible once in my life for about 30 minutes, got to the part where Adam lived to be almost 1,000 years old closed the book laughed my behind off at how stupid and highly improbable that was and never picked it up again until a few years after my conversion.

We move on in Romans now. Mainly, Romans 8:7. In Romans 8:7 Paul says:

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


As the great Sproul says in his Reformation Study Bible (It's available for free on Biblegateway so I'm not really infringing any copyrights here and he puts it better than I could).


"8:7 hostile to God. Pure anti-God hostility, incapable of being anything else, is the real mind-set of everyone who is not yet renewed by the Spirit (3:9–18). The natural person regards God as an enemy."

What Sproul and Paul mean is that the natural sin nature of mankind are naturally hostile towards God, they're incapable of being anything else and there isn't any way that they can actually turn towards God because their natural nature is to be against him. We are wicked and evil people and that should not be downplayed. We kill people, we lie, we use the Lord's name in vain, we steal, we commit adultery, we are by nature, bodn sinners. We by nature don't care about God or what he has to say, we commit sin and quite frankly, we love it. If you commit sin and HATE it, that's a sign that God has done work in you. Because your natural nature is to LOVE it. I did, you did, we ALL did. That's what makes us totally depraved humans.


My last quotation from Paul (although there are probably more but I don't want this topic to be an eternity long. I still have a lot more scripture to give.) is what he tells us in Ephesians 2:1-10. Paul Says:

2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Sorry I bolded most of what Paul said but, it all pertains to the subject at hand. In these verses Paul talks about how we were all once DEAD in our trespasses and sins which we ALL once walked. We followed the course of this world and the Devil, but then God made us ALIVE. God regenerated us and turned our hearts of stone into a heart of Flesh (You know where I quoted this from and I'll be talking about it later). Finally, salvation is NOT our own doing, it is the GIFT of God. God does the saving and salvation, NOT us. It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to go to God when we are in the flesh as scripture proves over and over again. But, I cannot quote every part of the Bible, I have to move on.

We move on to the words of Jesus Christ himself. In the magical Chapter of John 6. Yes, I know we Calvinists use John 6 (and the book of John) to prove a lot of our theology but if you read and meditate on John 6, what Christ says starts to make sense. If I didn't quote John 6 and be in love with the chapter pretty much ever since my conversion, I wouldn't be a Calvinist . We'll Start with John 6:37-40. Jesus says:

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


Calvinists also use John 6:37-40 to prove Perseverance of the Saints, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace. But, I want to use it to show you that it teaches Total Depravity as well. Why? Read what I've bolded. "All that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER cast out. Then in verse 38, I've come not to do my will but the will of the Father. Then in verse 39 and 40 he teaches us what the will of the Father is. The will of the father is that Christ loses NONE of what God the Father gives to Jesus but that Jesus raises them ALL on the last day.

So how does this teach Total Depravity or any of the other points of Calvinism? I'm sure you've wondered over the years what the magical "Will of the Father" that Jesus talked about in Matthew 7:21-23. Many theologians have guessed for almost 1,700+ years now what it could possibly be. But, Jesus gave the Apostles the answer before he died. It's been in front of people's eyes the whole time and ST. Augustine was the first theologian to "discover" it (True prior to Augustine the NT didn't really exist and they were still scrapping it together but you get my point.) It's that all that God the Father gives to Jesus, none are lost. God plays a 100% role in mankind's salvation, mankind has no part in it because mankind CANNOT play a part in it. We are sinfully depraved. How does God the Father give people to Jesus? Well, we turn to John 6:44-45 to find the answer.

John 6:44-45:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—.


Jesus didn't just say nobody would be willing to come to me, he plainly stated "Nobody CAN come to me." unless God draws them. It is God who initiates our salvation, not ourselves. As I said quoting Paul above "It is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." A common argument to a Calvinists argument on this subject is, well God draws everybody. To that I say, tell me if God draws everybody why isn't everyone raised on the last day? God said those who are drawn by God are raised on the last day. God does NOT draw everybody. The fact of the matter is and the pure bluntness of Jesus is, NOBODY can come to God unless God draws them and gives them a new heart. Why? Because mankind has been totally depraved by themselves ever since the fall. I could keep going on in the book of John but this is getting long enough, I can give you guys more scripture in my replies. Now, to prove this even further, we now turn to the OT.

I'm going to just tell you what verses I'm quoting and you can look them up yourself, I'm trying to make this short. I've already quoted Psalm 14 because Paul did. But, there is also Psalm 58:3, Psalm 38:5, & Psalm 119:176 and there's also Psalm 51 written by David shortly after his famous adultery with Bethsheba. There is Ezekiel 36:25, Job 14:4, Job 15:16, Isaiah 59:7-8, 13-15, Isaiah 64:6, Jeremiah 2:13, and ultimately Ezekiel 36:26.

There is plenty of Biblical evidence for Total Depravity. Just, many people aren't willing to read or look. The fact of the matter is, we need God. As Christ says in Matthew 19:26, "With man this impossible, but with God ALL things are possible."

Amen.

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Neostarwcc said:

As is Preserverance of the saints. It's a doctrine accepted by most of the Protestant church today just because they rename it to Eternal security or OSAS doesnt mean it's not the same thing.

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BNR32FAN said:

There’s a big difference between being incapable of choosing and choosing of your own free will. If someone is choosing of their own free will they are not incapable of making either choice. Total depravity teaches that some are created INCAPABLE of choosing God which is not free will.

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BNR32FAN said:

Bless you friend I would like to share a few verses. Let’s examine Revelation 2:20-21 together.


“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Jesus’ expectation that Jezebel should repent because He is waiting patiently for her to do so but she does not. The idea here is that Jezebel has the ability to repent but chooses not to. Now let’s examine another very similar case in Romans 2:4-8.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance but because of their stubbornness to repent they are storing up for themselves God’s wrath and righteous judgement.

So why would Jesus give someone time to repent whom He knows is incapable of repentance? In the same manner why would God be kind and patient towards those whom He is “leading to repentance” if they are incapable of repentance? They cannot be storing up God’s wrath on judgement day if they will repent before judgement day because their sins will have been forgiven. The only way they can store up God’s wrath on judgement day is if they don’t repent.

“There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:9-11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Total depravity hangs on the notion that God is partial towards some and not others which the scriptures say that He is not partial towards some over others.

Jesus told the apostles to preach the gospel to all nations. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever refused to preach the gospel to anyone and their teachings were never exclusive to any particular groups or individuals. No one was ever refused the right to hear the gospel.

The scriptures are clear that God wants all men to repent and be saved and that none should perish. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9. Total depravity combined with unconditional grace contradicts this message.

Total depravity doesn’t coincide with many scriptures like John 15:1-10 or Paul’s message in Colossians 1:22-23. How can a person be in Christ and yet fail to remain in Him if total depravity is true then those who didn’t remain in Him couldn’t have been in Him to begin with. The problem is Jesus specifically says that they were in Him. He also says that The Father cuts off every branch in Him that does not bear fruit. Now before we get into the discussion about the term “cuts off” I would like to mention that the Greek word used when pertaining to something that is attached to anything the word means to cut of or remove. To say that it means to lift up or raise up ignores the implications that those who don’t abide are cast away and those who do abide will bear much fruit. Luke 13:6-9 has a very similar message about the tree that does not bear fruit is chopped down. Those who don’t bear fruit are not abiding in Christ unless you disagree with John 15:5.

In Colossians 1:22-23 Paul places a stipulation on being or remaining holy and blameless without reproach before God which raises the question how could someone who is totally deprived accept the gospel and have faith in the first place. They would have to have faith to begin with in order for them to not remain grounded and steadfast in their faith.

Galatians 5:4 the Galatians have fallen from grace and have been severed from Christ. Again this wouldn’t be possible if total depravity were true because they wouldn’t have received grace to begin with because they are supposedly incapable of repentance and no one can be severed from Christ who has not been joined to Him. Surely a person wouldn’t say that Pharaoh or Herod were severed from Christ. No because they were never in Christ.

I will stop here for now so this doesn’t get too long.

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Running2win said:

I don't agree, they have the choice but will not make it. It don't go against their "free will". So it is a real choice for all intents and purposes. No one can say on judgment day, I didn't have a choice. God will roll the film and... We all have a very limited choice in Gods creation. It is His show. If you were God, you could do it different.

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All Glory To God said:

The instructions to not be a respector of person is in regard to status and wealth

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All Glory To God said:

Greetings.

I'm going to answer what I can remember from your post and that was repentance, partiality and justification.

Of course God is bias to some people but not in contradiction to scripture. The instructions to not be a respector of person is in regard to status and wealth. We are called to value a person by their character not influence or material possessions they have in society. However God definitely has distinction between those who has love as his chosen people. The twins before they were even born, Jacob and esau, one was shown Gods love the other his personal hostility.

I believe in the repence doctrine but the key question is how a person comes round to doing it. I believe God works in the broken persons heart and soul to renew them giving them life and the ability to recieve other spiritual blessings. I do not think the human heart by itself or in partnership can come to humble itself before God because of pride and sin thus no repentance. The opponents of total depravity cannot give a clear demonstration of how repentance can be accomplished without the sole work of God at his discretion, for his purpose.

Being in Christ is a early stage of the process. The people who will go on to be saved were chosen for salvation long before they were born or the world created. The father chooses who he desires to glorify him, the son sanctifies them and the Holy spirit seals them.

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BNR32FAN said:

If they have the choice then you can’t say they’re incapable. The whole concept of a choice by free will negates the possibility of them being incapable of choosing. Either they are created incapable of choosing then they do not have the freedom of choice or they are created capable of choosing and they do have the freedom of choice. It sounds like your trying to play both sides of the coin here. It can’t be both free to choose and yet incapable of choosing.

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Hmmm! said:

If we are Totally Depraved though and incapable of responding to God in anyway, what's the point of telling us that? Wouldn't it be kinder to say nothing at all?

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eleos1954 said:

That's the one of the problems with Calvinism ... the belief dismisses the fact God gave his created beings the freedom to choose. Many many many verses stated by God ... if you do this ... or if you do that ... IF is conditional and based on choice. Many IF's in His Word.

Gods foreknowledge .... God knows what choices people will make ... but He does not make our choices for us.

John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

We are indeed more inclined to sin than to not sin ... but ... IF one chooses Christ then by the power of His Holy Spirit working in the believer He will help them to overcome sin and/or avoid the temptation to sin. We will never be totally perfect in our earthly body ... but God will finish His work in the believer ... and His work continues until our earthly death or until He returns whichever comes first.

Revelation 3:20
Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 3:21
King James Bible
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Philippine 1:6
Berean Study Bible
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus

Sanctification:

It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are being sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being (progressive) sanctified (during their earthly life-time).

Jesus is our advocate and judge and will cover us with His blood and will DECLARE us totally innocent of all sin and we will receive eternal life in His kingdom for eternity.

True love requires choice .... true love can not be forced ... one can not force another to love them .... God knows that .... we know that.

God does not force Himself on anyone.

Calvinism dismisses (makes void) Gods sovereign LOVE of mankind who He originally created in His image of Love.

And the greatest of these is Love.

God IS love.

God is the Greatest! AMEN!!!!!!

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rnmomof7 said:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

[God] foreknew,
προέγνω (proegnō)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 4267: To know beforehand, foreknow. From pro and ginosko; to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee.

He also predestined [to be]
προώρισεν (proōrisen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.


What did God foreknow about the elect?

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BNR32FAN said:

Bless you friend. There’s no mention of status or wealth in these statements. In Romans 2 the only separation is their deeds and the way they lived their life. Not their race, nationality, or social class.


“who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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Running2win said:

I don't see why not, I understand it perfectly.

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All Glory To God said:

Also wealth ans status. This is from James chapter 2

My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

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All Glory To God said:

I do not think the human heart by itself or in partnership can come to humble itself before God because of pride and sin thus no repentance. The opponents of total depravity cannot give a clear demonstration of how repentance can be accomplished without the sole work of God at his discretion, for his purpose.

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All Glory To God said:

Being in Christ is a early stage of the process. The people who will go on to be saved were chosen for salvation long before they were born or the world created. The father chooses who he desires to glorify him, the son sanctifies them and the Holy spirit seals them.

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rnmomof7 said:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

[God] foreknew,
προέγνω (proegnō)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 4267: To know beforehand, foreknow. From pro and ginosko; to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee.

He also predestined [to be]
προώρισεν (proōrisen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.


What did God foreknow about the elect?

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