4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

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keras

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Why was the Reformation necessary?

Oh, and quote the post where I said that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 refers to the Reformation.

Why not least try to understand what a conversation is about before inserting yourself into it?
!/ the hopeless depravity of the Roman Catholic Church.

2/ I never said 2 Thess 2:4 was related to the Reformation. I referred to your mistaken assignment of it to 'corruption within the Church'.

3/ Going back to just #92, I have posted on this thread 32 times. What you need to try and understand is God's Plans for our future. Its all there in Revelation, it is just preterist avoidance of forthcoming tough times, that makes people say it is just a Gospel sermon.
 
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jgr

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!/ the hopeless depravity of the Roman Catholic Church.

Depravity, true. Hopeless, not, because it was and is not beyond the grace of God.

There are many true followers of Christ within Catholicism today, nothwithstanding the faults and failures of its leadership.

The early post-apostolic Church was small "c" catholic.

2/ I never said 2 Thess 2:4 was related to the Reformation. I referred to your mistaken assignment of it to 'corruption within the Church'.

Does the definition of depravity include corruption?
 
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timothyu

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The corruption within the Church and all following offshoots it the setting aside of the Kingdom for the kingdoms of man. A deliberate rebellion against Jesus and the Kingdom 1700 years ago that has remained the focus of the religion ever since. Christianity rejoined the world of man.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
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eclipsenow

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Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. I'm Sydney Anglican, which means we see it as a symbolic sermon reminding us of our gospel hope. Which means we are "Amil" or A-millennial - no literal millennium. It's a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to hold up under 4 scary themes we see cycle through our world over the centuries again and again - with a reminder of the gospel hope that at the end the Lord will fix it all.

As Sydney Anglican Bishop (with Phd's in theology and history) Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years actually describes Jesus reign during the period we are in right now. The period between Jesus resurrection and return. The bad stuff we see in the world both now and the last 2000 years.

Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we were looking for how the CoronaVirus pandemic fit into some future timeline and missed it entirely because we were looking for a timeline prediction rather than a thematic description? What if we missed the entire point of Revelation, and missed biblical warnings and encouragements about our lives now - and the last 2000 years - because we were trying to read it with the wrong glasses on? Try Paul Barnett's book.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church, 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other things the human race have experienced over the last 2000 years and into the next. Revelation was a book John wrote about impending Roman persecution, but also other themes. Some images (like the beast) describe Roman stuff, other things are more generic. Not everything has to be fulfilled in the first century because it was a general description of life and the various temptations we'll face.

Or another example - while Rev 13 describes Rome's persecution of the Christians in Asia Minor, it also tells us general principles about beast states that persecute the church. Hitler was one beast state, Stalin another, North Korea yet another. There are many examples - but Amil Christians that live in persecution look to Revelation as a source of comfort. Yes, being persecuted is bad. But to the Christians that suffer with patient endurance and hope, there is the gospel hope that Jesus will return and raise and reward them. They laugh at the idea that John would have told his own generation of suffering Christians "You think you've got it bad under the Romans, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" That's the difference between seeing a thematic sermon and a future timeline. A sermon is relevant for all Christians across all time. A timetable is only relevant to those Christians willing to play endless guessing games about the last few years of history. To which I ask - what on earth has been the whole point of the book for the last 2000 years? Honestly!?
 
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TedT

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John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.

Even so, we have prophecies with two fulfillments, type and anti-type, that is, prophecies in both historical acts to be repeated or in words to come true twice.
 
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eclipsenow

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Even so, we have prophecies with two fulfillments, type and anti-type, that is, prophecies in both historical acts to be repeated or in words to come true twice.
Oh for sure - I'm not signing up to Full Preterism. Of course Judgement and Paradise are still to come. But we're in this weird phase called "Eschatological tension" where we are the recipients of grace, seated in heaven already, sons and daughters of the Most high, are saved from our sin - and yet are still in the world and under governments that do not acknowledge Christ's rule, feel the effects of being in fallen corruptible bodies, are fighting our old natures and even though freed from it, still feel the power of sin in our lives and the temptation to side with worldly authorities and wealth and power.

But it does not change that Revelation is a letter to a specific people in a specific time going through specific things - just as much as any of the other epistles are - but in apocalyptic symbolism. We are to read how it applied to their situation, and then apply it - sermon style - to our own. Where-ever and when-ever we live, this side of the cross.
 
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DavidPT

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Oh for sure - I'm not signing up to Full Preterism. Of course Judgement and Paradise are still to come. But we're in this weird phase called "Eschatological tension" where we are the recipients of grace, seated in heaven already, sons and daughters of the Most high, are saved from our sin - and yet are still in the world and under governments that do not acknowledge Christ's rule, feel the effects of being in fallen corruptible bodies, are fighting our old natures and even though freed from it, still feel the power of sin in our lives and the temptation to side with worldly authorities and wealth and power.

But it does not change that Revelation is a letter to a specific people in a specific time going through specific things - just as much as any of the other epistles are - but in apocalyptic symbolism. We are to read how it applied to their situation, and then apply it - sermon style - to our own. Where-ever and when-ever we live, this side of the cross.


The following was recently brought up in one of these threads, probably not this one, though.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


It says that anyone that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, and if they should add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

Hypothetical---What if one did this very thing last century, for example, but that they are already dead by now, what plagues last century before they died did God add unto them that are written in this book? Or do you perhaps think no one can add to these things in our day and time, and that that was only possible during a time involving suffering under Rome?
 
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eclipsenow

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The following was recently brought up in one of these threads, probably not this one, though.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


It says that anyone that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, and if they should add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

Hypothetical---What if one did this very thing last century, for example, but that they are already dead by now, what plagues last century before they died did God add unto them that are written in this book? Or do you perhaps think no one can add to these things in our day and time, and that that was only possible during a time involving suffering under Rome?
I think it is a general warning, up there with clearer epistles that talk about the seriousness and profound honour of handling God's word - and Jesus saying that if anyone causes one of these little ones to fall, it would be better that that man had not been born in the first place. Don't mess with Scripture - it's God's word. What do you think?
 
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Ligurian

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John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
"4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome"

One reason why John wasn't talking about Rome.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

At the time Revelation was written,
Rome is called "one is".
Beast is called "is not".

So much for pin the tail on the Roman donkey.
The Greek/Babylon/Persia beast is not Rome.

But bad things had already started in John's day, which we can see in the letters to the churches, where non-church alien doctrine was slowly taking over. So false prophets were already in the church. Matthew 24:11

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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Ligurian

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I think it is a general warning, up there with clearer epistles that talk about the seriousness and profound honour of handling God's word - and Jesus saying that if anyone causes one of these little ones to fall, it would be better that that man had not been born in the first place. Don't mess with Scripture - it's God's word. What do you think?

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Daniel 7:7 After this one I looked, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong, and its teeth were of iron; devouring and crushing to atoms, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: and it was altogether different from the beasts that were before it; and it had ten hours.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
 
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eclipsenow

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"4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome"

One reason why John wasn't talking about Rome.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

At the time Revelation was written,
Rome is called "one is".
Beast is called "is not".

So much for pin the tail on the Roman donkey.
The Greek/Babylon/Persia beast is not Rome.

But bad things had already started in John's day, which we can see in the letters to the churches, where non-church alien doctrine was slowly taking over. So false prophets were already in the church. Matthew 24:11

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Naaaaaaah. Not a problem, really. John was talking to his generation about his generation, and about things that were just about to happen. They can hardly obey a message that isn't to our about them, can they?

EG: "In the year 4000AD the Martian Purge will rise up against the Cybers, and there will be many entrapments and flux-grieves throughout the Multi-net."

Now go forth and obey this prophecy!
 
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eclipsenow

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Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Daniel 7:7 After this one I looked, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong, and its teeth were of iron; devouring and crushing to atoms, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: and it was altogether different from the beasts that were before it; and it had ten hours.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Yup, bible verses everywhere. Your point?
 
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DavidPT

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I think it is a general warning, up there with clearer epistles that talk about the seriousness and profound honour of handling God's word - and Jesus saying that if anyone causes one of these little ones to fall, it would be better that that man had not been born in the first place. Don't mess with Scripture - it's God's word. What do you think?


Is there not plagues mentioned throughout the book of Revelation? And doesn't the text indicate, that anyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book, meaning they are properly understanding them and not just speculating about the meanings of the words of this prophecy like many of us tend to do from time to time, the fact there are numerous interpretations involving the same passages and that not all of them can be correct, thus most are speculating, that if they are to add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book?

How can the plagues that are written in this book not even involve any of the plagues written in the book when the text plainly states that it does?

And even though my last post did contain a hypothetical, I think a better hypothetical would be, it's the same circumstances, but this time this person is still alive rather than already dead. And since it's not over until the end of this age arrives, there still might be plenty of time for God to add the plagues written in this book to that person.
 
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Ligurian

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Naaaaaaah. Not a problem, really. John was talking to his generation about his generation, and about things that were just about to happen. They can hardly obey a message that isn't to our about them, can they?

EG: "In the year 4000AD the Martian Purge will rise up against the Cybers, and there will be many entrapments and flux-grieves throughout the Multi-net."

Now go forth and obey this prophecy!

John was only writing, but Jesus is talking.

Revelation 1:18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

eimi = I exist
 
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Ligurian

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I think it is a general warning, up there with clearer epistles that talk about the seriousness and profound honour of handling God's word - and Jesus saying that if anyone causes one of these little ones to fall, it would be better that that man had not been born in the first place. Don't mess with Scripture - it's God's word. What do you think?

You forgot what Jesus had said, so I quoted it to you.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Daniel 7:7 After this one I looked, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong, and its teeth were of iron; devouring and crushing to atoms, and it trampled the remainder with its feet: and it was altogether different from the beasts that were before it; and it had ten hours.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Those who make the little ones apostacize (another translation for the Greek word) are worthy of the Babylon adulteress treatment.

Yup, bible verses everywhere. Your point?

A Gospel of the Kingdom Disciple either knows or is careful to learn these things.
 
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eclipsenow

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You forgot what Jesus had said, so I quoted it to you.



Those who make the little ones apostacize (another translation for the Greek word) are worthy of the Babylon adulteress treatment.



A Gospel of the Kingdom Disciple either knows or is careful to learn these things.
I know them. I raised them with you.
 
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Ligurian

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Given the word is a spiritual gathering not physical temple, it's most probably more picture language that all false teachers in the church - like the ones scaring the Thessalonians that the Lord had already returned and they had missed out! - would be judged - and would be seen to be judged.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​

Note: this passage doesn't use the phrase "abomination that causes desolation" or even "anti-Christ".

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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eclipsenow

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Is there not plagues mentioned throughout the book of Revelation? And doesn't the text indicate, that anyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book, meaning they are properly understanding them and not just speculating about the meanings of the words of this prophecy like many of us tend to do from time to time, the fact there are numerous interpretations involving the same passages and that not all of them can be correct, thus most are speculating, that if they are to add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book?

How can the plagues that are written in this book not even involve any of the plagues written in the book when the text plainly states that it does?

And even though my last post did contain a hypothetical, I think a better hypothetical would be, it's the same circumstances, but this time this person is still alive rather than already dead. And since it's not over until the end of this age arrives, there still might be plenty of time for God to add the plagues written in this book to that person.

The text is warning not to change or tinker with God's word. The 'plagues' are a general description of the main ways God's judgement on this fallen world show up. Cyclone Katrina? God's general judgement on the world. Not specific sins. Nothing we can point to and say "They did this, therefore God did that." Just general. My son had a serious illness years ago. I immediately thought of the sin in my life - but why would God take out my sin on my son? He offered his own Son for that. But of course - as well encounter suffering and sickness and trials in this world - we should see it as a 'wake up' call and repent again. Monitor sin in our own lives, trust in Jesus, repent.

But as we see from history, not all cults or false teachers are judged immediately. Sure you have Jonestown - where the cult leader himself seems to have become a victim of his own tyranny. Waco Texas, where the state intervened and escalated and people died. But some false teachers get away with it for years. Some, like Ravi Zaccharias, are not necessarily even false teachers - just personally immoral ones. Where's the plague on Ravi? Where's the plague on the countless TV Evangelists earning their millions promising false healings and blessings that they have no business promising? It's a general warning. Repent, or else the sort of stuff we read about in Revelation will seem like nothing if we fall into the hands of an angry God.
 
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eclipsenow

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Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Leviticus
1 The Lord called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock.​
 
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