Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

Choose Wisely said:

Here is the rapture in Matthew 24. Not sure why you are having trouble finding it?

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You have it backwards. As I've said in other posts on this thread the word "taken" does not mean removed from this earth as utilized in this verse. You have to take it back to the Greek.

Here are two examples of the word "taken" that have two completely different meanings even in the same book.


Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 3880 paralambano - to receive near i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act, by anal. to assume an office, fig it means to learn- receive, take (unto, with)

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 522 -apairo - to lift off, i.e. remove -take (away)

Common sense alone tells us by definition, the first ones are taken by Antichrist. They will be the ones that will receive his mark.


Matthew 24:41 "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

We aren't to know the day or hour at this point but are to watch for these things that Christ is teaching us so that day does not overtake us as a thief. He's telling us we "can know in what watch the thief will come". How? By these things that will come to pass. And he most definitely tells us that if someone says, here is Christ, or there is Christ, don't believe it not.

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

The meat is God's word. And it's something that the 5 foolish virgins didn't have enough of.

Matthew 24:46 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

Christ teaches - those that endure to "the end" the same shall be saved.

Edited to add,

There's another type of flood coming and it fits Christ's analogy.

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

What will be coming out of his mouth? Lies, deceit, you name it. The first will be the ones "taken" in this flood. And many will believe his lies as Paul teaches, there will be a great falling away (apostasy) at that time.

We want to be the ones left and standing when Christ returns.

Choose Wisely said:

Just wondering why you claim that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the second coming (which I fully agree with) and yet you want to use the wheat and tares analogy that occurs at the second coming.

Sorry bub. Not gonna happen.

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Matthew 24 does contain the Second Coming in the passage below.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


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JulieB67 said:

You have it backwards. As I've said in other posts on this thread the word "taken" does not mean removed from this earth as utilized in this verse. You have to take it back to the Greek.

Here are two examples of the word "taken" that have two completely different meanings even in the same book.


Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 3880 paralambano - to receive near i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act, by anal. to assume an office, fig it means to learn- receive, take (unto, with)

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I wonder what Greek word is used in John 14. Might it be paralambano?
John14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You spend so much time making up things that it's pretty impossible for you to see the truth.

JulieB67 said:

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 522 -apairo - to lift off, i.e. remove -take (away)

Common sense alone tells us by definition, the first ones are taken by Antichrist. They will be the ones that will receive his mark.

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Common sense is telling me, you have made this up. This conclusion is so sad if have to chuckle.

JulieB67 said:

Let's go farther into Matthew 24,

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You would be better served to backup and get one thing correct before moving on.

JulieB67 said:

Matthew 24:41 "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

We aren't to know the day or hour at this point but are to watch for these things that Christ is teaching us so that day does not overtake us as a thief. He's telling us we "can know in what watch the thief will come". How? By these things that will come to pass. And he most definitely tells us that if someone says, here is Christ, or there is Christ, don't believe it not.

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Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Church will not even be here when here when those false Christs show up as we can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass.

JulieB67 said:

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

The meat is God's word. And it's something that the 5 foolish virgins didn't have enough of.

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Boy oh boy. Where do you come up with this. Quit making things up and fooling yourself. The foolish virgins do not lack meat, they lack oil.
Matthew 24:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

JulieB67 said:

Matthew 24:46 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

Christ teaches - those that endure to "the end" the same shall be saved.

Click to expand...

Again, you have no concept of what is going on. Those that endure to the end is not talking about those that endure to the end of their life. Those that endure to the end are those that endure until the coming of Christ in Matthew 24. Those that are alive until that coming will be caught up and saved. We can see the coming in Rev 14. The righteous are caught up to the clouds. The world remains and is cast into the wrath of God which occurs on the earth.
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Edited to add,

JulieB67 said:

There's another type of flood coming and it fits Christ's analogy.

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

What will be coming out of his mouth? Lies, deceit, you name it. The first will be the ones "taken" in this flood. And many will believe his lies as Paul teaches, there will be a great falling away (apostasy) at that time.

We want to be the ones left behind and standing when Christ returns.

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My goodness, do you have ANY understanding or do you just roll with what you make up?

This is talking about the dragon attempting to send his armies after the woman (Those, in the nation of Israel), that flee to a place of protection, and destroy her. And what happens?

Revelation 14:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Quit, just quit, making all this stuff up. The answers are right in the scriptures.

BABerean2 said:

Matthew 24 does contain the Second Coming in the passage below.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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Oh Mr. Twister. You probably have the game.

If you want to call that the second coming, I have no problem that. But let's define when this coming is. Here you go. We see that coming in Revelation 6, just prior to the wrath of God. We also have a coming after the wrath of God when Jesus returns with His armies to set up his kingdom on earth.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So here is what you said: This is related to the parable of the wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire, and afterward the wheat is gathered into the barn.

Now we can see in Rev 14, which occurs prior to the wrath of God that the righteous are gathered first.
So, as usual you are incorrect and have made your usual attempt to twist the truth. Sorry bub, as usual, not happening.

Choose Wisely said:

Oh Mr. Twister. You probably have the game.

If you want to call that the second coming, I have no problem that. But let's define when this coming is. Here you go. We see that coming in Revelation 6, just prior to the wrath of God. We also have a coming after the wrath of God when Jesus returns with His armies to set up his kingdom on earth.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So here is what you said: This is related to the parable of the wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire, and afterward the wheat is gathered into the barn.

Now we can see in Rev 14, which occurs prior to the wrath of God that the righteous are gathered first.
So, as usual you are incorrect and have made your usual attempt to twist the truth. Sorry bub, as usual, not happening.

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Multiple Visions of the Second Coming in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.



He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)




The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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BABerean2 said:

Multiple Visions of the Second Coming in Revelation:

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And yet they do not all describe the same event. Which is why I posted what I did.

BABerean2 said:

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

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My point exactly, which is why I posted it.

BABerean2 said:

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

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Exactly. But it is not the same coming as Rev 6. Which is why I'm asking you to let me know what you want to call the second coming so you are unable to twist the scripture to fit your agenda.

BABerean2 said:

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

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Rev 14 is just a different version of the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 which is why we see people being cast INTO THE WRATH OF GOD. Additionally, as the scriptures show those that are taken 1st in Rev 14 ARE THE RIGHTEOUS. This of course disagrees with the tare being taken 1st when the wheat and tares are harvested. Thus, they are obviously a different harvest and of course you know that.

BABerean2 said:

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

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Great. Just let me know which ones you want to call the second coming and why so we can be on the same page. Of course, then you would be unable to twist the scripture to fit your agenda. Getting any sleep?

Choose Wisely said:

I wonder what Greek word is used in John 14. Might it be paralambano?
John14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Click to expand...

Yes! Because that's exactly what's going to happen when the true Christ returns after the tribulation. But no one is going to physically be removed before (or after) that time.

The first ones taken in Matthew 24 are taken by Antichrist. Christ and Paul declare it. Just because you don't want to heed their warnings about the timing of the hour doesn't mean it's not going down exactly as written. When Christ comes back, he will receive us to him. But there is another Christ coming before that and Christ says if they say he is here or there believe it not.

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I could go back into the Greek again and explain what the word mansions, abode, abiding and dwelling mean and what that all has to do with the Holy Spirit in that entire chapter but it I can tell it would be a complete waste of time and lost on you.

Choose Wisely said:

You spend so much time making up things that it's pretty impossible for you to see the truth.

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No, I spend most of my time posting scripture, taking the bible as a whole, chapter by chapter and verse by verse so as not to lose context. You can't even adhere to Christ and Paul's warnings so I'm not suprised simple scripture I'm posting falls on deaf ears.

Choose Wisely said:

Common sense is telling me, you have made this up.

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Made what up? The scriptures or the Greek words that go with those verses?

The analogy that Christ brought about is that the flood "took" them away first.

Choose Wisely said:

The foolish virgins do not lack meat, they lack oil.

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You can't even see the symbolism. They didn't have enough truth of God's Word. These are believers because they are waiting on the Bridegroom. But they missed the boat.

Choose Wisely said:

Again, you have no concept of what is going on. Those that endure to the end is not talking about those that endure to the end of their life. Those that endure to the end are those that endure until the coming of Christ in Matthew 24

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I don't know where you get that, I'm talking about endure to the end of the tribulation. As Paul taught, we are to have the full armour on to be able to stand "in that evil day"

Choose Wisely said:

The righteous are caught up to the clouds. The world remains and is cast into the wrath of G

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Paul is talking about the "the day of the Lord" in those scriptures and he says that day "will not happen" until the falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. You're just as confused as the Thessalonians, because they too, thought the day of Christ was at hand (immiment)

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you


I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Choose Wisely said:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Church will not even be here when here when those false Christs show up as we can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass

Click to expand...

The only way to to escape and still be standing is having the full amour on as Paul taught so we can "stand in that evil day" Paul is serious as is Christ. Christ says during this time in our patience we are to possess our souls. Anyone that doesn't take these teachings very serious are in danger of falling away. I'm not making any of this up or the warnings or teachings from Christ on this subject.

Even the very first seal we are to know is about the rider on the white horse who is not Christ.

Choose Wisely said:

The answers are right in the scriptures.

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Yes, they are.


Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


You want the testimony of Jesus Christ on how he comes back?


Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Revelation 1:2 "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

Further in 1:10, he tells John to write to the churches,



Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Every eye shall see him. If you can't believe Christ's words, than nothing I can say is going to change that.

Choose Wisely said:

Great. Just let me know which ones you want to call the second coming and why so we can be on the same page. Of course, then you would be unable to twist the scripture to fit your agenda.

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Coming from a Dispensationalist, the above is an interesting comment.

When you point one finger at me, how many are pointing back in your direction?


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JulieB67 said:

You have it backwards. As I've said in other posts on this thread the word "taken" does not mean removed from this earth as utilized in this verse. You have to take it back to the Greek.

Here are two examples of the word "taken" that have two completely different meanings even in the same book.


Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 3880 paralambano - to receive near i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act, by anal. to assume an office, fig it means to learn- receive, take (unto, with)

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word "taken" in this verse is Greek word 522 -apairo - to lift off, i.e. remove -take (away)

Common sense alone tells us by definition, the first ones are taken by Antichrist. They will be the ones that will receive his mark.


Matthew 24:41 "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

We aren't to know the day or hour at this point but are to watch for these things that Christ is teaching us so that day does not overtake us as a thief. He's telling us we "can know in what watch the thief will come". How? By these things that will come to pass. And he most definitely tells us that if someone says, here is Christ, or there is Christ, don't believe it not.

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

The meat is God's word. And it's something that the 5 foolish virgins didn't have enough of.

Matthew 24:46 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

Christ teaches - those that endure to "the end" the same shall be saved.

Edited to add,

There's another type of flood coming and it fits Christ's analogy.

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

What will be coming out of his mouth? Lies, deceit, you name it. The first will be the ones "taken" in this flood. And many will believe his lies as Paul teaches, there will be a great falling away (apostasy) at that time.

We want to be the ones left and standing when Christ returns.

Click to expand...

Or it could just mean one died and the other did not. It does not say where they were taken or by whom. One died the other lived. The implication is that half of the world would die, in the same multi-year advent of Christ's return.

JulieB67 said:

I don't know where you get that, I'm talking about endure to the end of the tribulation. As Paul taught, we are to have the full armour on to be able to stand "in that evil day"

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The only way to endure in the last days is to have had your head cut off. Christians need a full set of armor every day of the week. They are all evil days since the Romans were evil people and the earth has not been given too many decent rulers since then. They all have faults. Giving into sinful pleasures is not being a benevolent ruler. It is promoting evil over good.

Timtofly said:

The only way to endure in the last days is to have had your head cut off.

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No.
All of the Christians will not have to belong to the OWG led by the Anti-Christ. Revelation 12:14
We are told that God will help us to endure. 1 Corinthians 10:13

BABerean2 said:

Coming from a Dispensationalist, the above is an interesting comment.

When you point one finger at me, how many are pointing back in your direction?

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It's more interesting that you not willing to answer the question. And we both know why.

You keep this up and you could be facing a pay cut.

JulieB67 said:

Yes! Because that's exactly what's going to happen when the true Christ returns after the tribulation. But no one is going to physically be removed before (or after) that time.

The first ones taken in Matthew 24 are taken by Antichrist. Christ and Paul declare it. Just because you don't want to heed their warnings about the timing of the hour doesn't mean it's not going down exactly as written. When Christ comes back, he will receive us to him. But there is another Christ coming before that and Christ says if they say he is here or there believe it not.

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I could go back into the Greek again and explain what the word mansions, abode, abiding and dwelling mean and what that all has to do with the Holy Spirit in that entire chapter but it I can tell it would be a complete waste of time and lost on you.

Click to expand...

Yeah, why don't you go back to Greek again and see if you can come up with an explanation of how we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

JulieB67 said:

No, I spend most of my time posting scripture, taking the bible as a whole, chapter by chapter and verse by verse so as not to lose context. You can't even adhere to Christ and Paul's warnings so I'm not suprised simple scripture I'm posting falls on deaf ears.

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No problem with you posting scriptures. The problem is your explanation. As the scripture clearly tells us that the foolish virgins lack oil but your have to come up with your own conclusion and say they lack meat. Then of course when I post the verses that show that the foolish virgins lack oil, that just won't fly. You have to come up with an explanation as to what the meat is.

JulieB67 said:

Made what up?

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That's rich. Just about every post you post a scripture and make up an explanation of what it means, and if you would just quit making things up and keep reading, it's all explained.

JulieB67 said:

The scriptures or the Greek words that go with those verses?

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You need to stay out of the Greek as that just gives you more things to make up. Just read what it says and quit.

JulieB67 said:

The analogy that Christ brought about is that the flood "took" them away first.

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So who was taken and who was left? Seems like the ones in the ark were taken away and the others remained for destruction.

JulieB67 said:

You can't even see the symbolism. They didn't have enough truth of God's Word. These are believers because they are waiting on the Bridegroom. But they missed the boat.

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Yeah, not enough oil.

JulieB67 said:

I don't know where you get that, I'm talking about endure to the end of the tribulation. As Paul taught, we are to have the full armour on to be able to stand "in that evil day"

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What you are talking about and what the scripture says is constantly different. Instead of making something up, just keep reading. The scripture will explain itself.

JulieB67 said:

Paul is talking about the "the day of the Lord" in those scriptures and he says that day "will not happen" until the falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. You're just as confused as the Thessalonians, because they too, thought the day of Christ was at hand (immiment)

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you


I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

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If what you claim is true, then why doesn't Paul just say "But of the time and season"?

JulieB67 said:

The only way to to escape and still be standing is having the full amour on as Paul taught so we can "stand in that evil day" Paul is serious as is Christ. Christ says during this time in our patience we are to possess our souls. Anyone that doesn't take these teachings very serious are in danger of falling away. I'm not making any of this up or the warnings or teachings from Christ on this subject.

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The verses are speaking of escaping ALL THE THINGS that are talked about, and standing BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. That's in heaven before the throne, which we can see in Rev 5.

JulieB67 said:

Even the very first seal we are to know is about the rider on the white horse who is not Christ.

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Well, you got something right. Try and build on that.

JulieB67 said:

Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

You want the testimony of Jesus Christ on how he comes back?

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The remnant of the womans seed is the twelve tribes across the earth. The 144,000 is merely the first fruits of the coming harvest of the twelve tribes. When the dragon can't get to the woman he will go after the remnant of her seed whose eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

JulieB67 said:

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Revelation 1:2 "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

Further in 1:10, he tells John to write to the churches,



Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Every eye shall see him. If you can't believe Christ's words, than nothing I can say is going to change that.

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Nice straw man. Set him up and knock him down. Let me try.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Well, if you can't believe that the great day of His wrath is coming, then nothing I can say is going to change that.

Choose Wisely said:

It's more interesting that you not willing to answer the question. And we both know why.

You keep this up and you could be facing a pay cut.

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When I show you the passages from the Book of Revelation which reveal multiple visions of the Second Coming of Christ, and you say they are not, why do I have to answer your questions?

The pastor in the video below independently came to the same conclusions that I did.


Second Coming visions in the Book of Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.



He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)




The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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BABerean2 said:

When I show you the passages from the Book of Revelation which reveal multiple visions of the Second Coming of Christ, and you say they are not, why do I have to answer your questions?

The pastor in the video below independently came to the same conclusions that I did.


Second Coming visions in the Book of Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

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How many times do you need me to tell you, I know Christ is coming at the 6th seal. Do you want to call that the second coming. Great. Now what do you want to call the coming when Christ returns at the end of wrath?

I don't doubt these comings, I just want you to be clear on what coming you are referring to so you can't twist the scripture. We both know that the scripture does not line up like you say, so just be clear what you are talking about.

BABerean2 said:

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

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So are you saying that the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 is the same coming as Rev 11, is the same coming as Rev 14, is the same coming at the end of the vials, is the same as the coming in Rev 19?

I just want to get on the same page as you so I can disassemble what you post. Surely you understand that.

Choose Wisely said:

That's rich. Just about every post you post a scripture and make up an explanation of what it means, and if you would just quit making things up and keep reading, it's all explained.

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What is 'rich', is how you say anything that does not conform to your beliefs, is made up.

You have been refuted many times, yet like others here; you just keep harping on your false theories like a stuck record.
If only you could prove your basic premise; the 'rapture to heaven' theory, then you would have credibility. As you can't prove the 'rapture', all your other notions are just bluff and bluster.

Choose Wisely said:

How many times do you need me to tell you, I know Christ is coming at the 6th seal. Do you want to call that the second coming. Great. Now what do you want to call the coming when Christ returns at the end of wrath?

I don't doubt these comings, I just want you to be clear on what coming you are referring to so you can't twist the scripture. We both know that the scripture does not line up like you say, so just be clear what you are talking about.


So are you saying that the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 is the same coming as Rev 11, is the same coming as Rev 14, is the same coming at the end of the vials, is the same as the coming in Rev 19?

I just want to get on the same page as you so I can disassemble what you post. Surely you understand that.

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How many comings of Christ are found below?

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act_3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

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Choose Wisely said:

Yeah, not enough oil.

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Ok, why do you think the foolish virgins didn't make it? Granted these are so called Christian people since they are waiting on the Bridegroom. Non Christians would not be waiting for the Bridegroom.
What does" not having enough oil" in the lamps mean to you?

I used the word "meat" because I'm just following Christ and Paul's use of the word "meat" in very much the same way.

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?


Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

Truth is also a good word. But regardless, we are talking the deeper truths of God's Word plain and simple. If you think that's something made up, so be it.

Choose Wisely said:

What you are talking about and what the scripture says is constantly different. Instead of making something up, just keep reading. The scripture will explain itself.

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Again, Christ is talking about those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. He's talking about the tribulation. And believe me, I have read. I'll admit almost 20 years ago, I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety, all the while claiming to be a Christian. I believed just as you did, in a rapture and so on. It wasn't until I did read the bible for the first time in it's entirety that I saw a pretrib rapture wasn't biblical at all. What I had been "taught" was false doctrine. That's why we are to study for ourselves to show ourselves approved.

Choose Wisely said:

If what you claim is true

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What I claim is true? These are Paul's words not mine. You can choose to believe them or not.

Just posting scriptures,

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
(air in this verse doesn't even mean sky, it means breathable air. Once again truth in the Greek- not made up and easy to look up)

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."


I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not
escape."

Choose Wisely said:

then why doesn't Paul just say "But of the time and season"?

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He did. The word for times and seasons is one word- Greek word 2540 kairos and it means occasion, proper time, season.

Again, not made up, easy to check out.

So once again, having read all of those verses, Paul's words, not mine, you can see he is talking about the Day of the Lord. And since they were confused by this letter, he writes them a second letter to nail down the timing. And if you accuse me again of making something up than it's very evident "you haven't read".
And that's why I also said, you are just as confused as the Thessalonians. But apparently you could care less that Paul wrote a second letter to end their confusion because you still believe Christ could come back at any moment, just like they did.

Choose Wisely said:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Well, if you can't believe that the great day of His wrath is coming, then nothing I can say is going to change that.

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I definitely believe it's coming.