Covenant and New Covenant theology

BABerean2

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You cannot see that, in our minds, we are always the protagonist, so we will naturally think that we are the ones with the correct thinking, and the other person, by definition the antagonist, is wrong?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


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Guojing

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Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


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Yes, the remnant is reserved by God, but they do not become the nation Israel.
 
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jgr

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You do agree that, in the English language, "the days come" and "will make" must mean it is not made NOW correct?

Otherwise why would the author of Hebrews, who is writing to the Jews, use the words "will make"?

As I said, you have to be willing to read the KJV English literally, to understand what I am saying.

A quote of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31.

The prophecy fulfilled in Christ. (Matthew 26:28)

The days had come, and the New Covenant was made.

Literally.
 
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Guojing

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A quote of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31.

The prophecy fulfilled in Christ. (Matthew 26:28)

The days had come, and the New Covenant was made.

Literally.

The book of Hebrews was written after Christ ascended

You don't understand the difference between future tense and past tense?
 
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keras

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Yes, the remnant is reserved by God, but they do not become the nation Israel.
The Jewish remnant is joined by the Israelites of faith. Together they will live in all of the holy land, Jeremiah 50:4-5, as the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
 
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jgr

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The book of Hebrews was written after Christ ascended

You don't understand the difference between future tense and past tense?

The days had come, and the New Covenant was made, three decades before Hebrews was written.

You don't understand that "had" and "was" mean past tense?

Jesus speaking, three decades before Hebrews:

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
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Guojing

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The days had come, and the New Covenant was made, three decades before Hebrews was written.

You don't understand that "had" and "was" mean past tense?

Jesus speaking, three decades before Hebrews:

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Not so fast, had and was are what you are claiming but then the scripture that you quoted does not contain them, but rather it uses “is”

As you have stated, Jesus stated the kingdom is at hand, it will come to pass If the nation repent

but we know in acts that the nation has rejected their king. The leaders did not repent and believe

how can there be a kingdom without a king?
 
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jgr

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Not so fast, had and was are what you are claiming but then the scripture that you quoted does not contain them, but rather it uses “is”

As you have stated, Jesus stated the kingdom is at hand, it will come to pass If the nation repent

but we know in acts that the nation has rejected their king. The leaders did not repent and believe

how can there be a kingdom without a king?

Because all who repent and believe the gospel, from every nation, are translated into the kingdom of the Son.

The Son is King of His Kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 
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Guojing

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Because all who repent and believe the gospel, from every nation, are translated into the kingdom of the Son.

The Son is King of His Kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

This is a heavenly kingdom, which we are in.

But Israel was promised a physical kingdom.

don't mix them up
 
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BABerean2

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This is a heavenly kingdom, which we are in.

But Israel was promised a physical kingdom.

don't mix them up


Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


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claninja

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Hebrews 8:8 will answer that 2nd point of yours, if you are willing to understand it literally.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

"I will make" is future tense because the author of hebrews was quoting from Jeremiah 31, which was written several hundred years before the 1st advent of Christ.

1) The new covenant promised by God is not here yet, it will be made in the future when Israel as a nation finally accepts Jesus as their Messiah.

That the new covenant is not here yet, is not true. NT scripture clearly states otherwise:

1.) The Author of Hebrews states the new covenant "has been enacted" on better promises. This is a past tense verb, not future.

Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it has been enacted on better promises.

2.) Paul declares that we have been made (past tense verb) sufficient to be ministers of the new covenant. This is a past tense verb, not future.
2 corinthians 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

3.) Paul declares that the new covenant is the Jerusalem from above.
Galatians 4:22-26 or it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

4.) The author of Hebrews states that we have come (PAST TENSE) to the heavenly Jerusalem and to Jesus the mediator of of a new covenant.

Hebrews 22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

2) And even then, it will be made with the nation Israel, and not the Body of Christ.

Scriptural evidence for this?
 
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Guojing

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Scriptural evidence for this?

Hebrews 8:8 is your evidence. There was never a time in Scripture where the Body of Christ is called "The house of Israel or the house of Judah.

Romans 11:25 distinguished them. Israel is separated from the Body of Christ.

And if one believes in the pre-trib rapture, one will also believe that the 2 are separated.
 
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claninja

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Romans 11:25 distinguished them. Israel is separated from the Body of Christ.

Romans 11:25 distinguishes believing natural Israel and non believing natural Israel. Part of natural Israel was hardened

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:d a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

When natural unbelieving Israel repents, are they grafted back into a different root than the believing gentiles or the same root?

Hebrews 8:8 is your evidence. There was never a time in Scripture where the Body of Christ is called "The house of Israel or the house of Judah.

Jesus made a covenant with the house of Israel and Judah in the 1st century.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.





 
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Guojing

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Romans 11:25 distinguishes believing natural Israel and non believing natural Israel. Part of natural Israel was hardened

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:d a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

When natural unbelieving Israel repents, are they grafted back into a different root than the believing gentiles or the same root?



Jesus made a covenant with the house of Israel and Judah in the 1st century.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Alright then, we can agree to disagree regarding what Israel means in the Bible.

You distinguish between different Israels, while to me, Israel is referring to the nation, but we are the Body of Christ.
 
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keras

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Alright then, we can agree to disagree regarding what Israel means in the Bible.

You distinguish between different Israels, while to me, Israel is referring to the nation, but we are the Body of Christ.
Who is the House of Israel?
A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. A decreed period; Ezekiel 4:4-6.

In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.


Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26


The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honor.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14

The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.


Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.

The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be virtually wiped out.
 
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Guojing

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Who is the House of Israel?
A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. A decreed period; Ezekiel 4:4-6.

In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.


Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26


The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honor.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14

The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.


Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.

The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be virtually wiped out.

I do understand that replacement theology is a popular theology.
 
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BABerean2

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I do understand that replacement theology is a popular theology.

How do we define "Replacement Theology"?


Replacing the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16.

Replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

Replacing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26. I have heard Dispensational preachers do this on television. It is a corruption of God's Word.

Replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

Replacing the Gospel based only on Grace, with one based on race.

Replacing the land promise found in Hebrews 11:15-16, with one on this sin-cursed earth.

The worst of all is the claim God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary. It is replacing the fulfillment of the New Covenant found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, with a fulfillment during a future time.

.
 
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