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Which will not deter me from pointing out your logical fallacies and twisted and out-of-context scriptures etc.
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Hell is a 404
- Thread starter Lazarus Short
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Jesus contradicts you.
Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Jesus contradicts me? Maybe not. I began this thread at the end of 2016, before I had made a word study on "fire" and related words. You can see it here: Godfire - a Word Study
Among other things, I learned that fire in the Bible is either natural fire or supernatural fire, and the supernatural kind is always associated with God. It is Godfire. You quote a verse which mentions "eternal fire." We know that only God is eternal, so the fire mentioned in that verse must be Godfire, correct? Are you, then, going to imply that it is Hell, when the Bible does not??
Among other things, I learned that fire in the Bible is either natural fire or supernatural fire, and the supernatural kind is always associated with God. It is Godfire. You quote a verse which mentions "eternal fire." We know that only God is eternal, so the fire mentioned in that verse must be Godfire, correct? Are you, then, going to imply that it is Hell, when the Bible does not??
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- Aug 21, 2003
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I think you missed the point. The eternal fire was prepared for the devil. How many places of eternal fire will there be?
Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
…..Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180
“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
= = = = = = = = = =luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”Thus this shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
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Yes just one eternal fire for the everlasting torment and punishment of the wicked.
universalism equates to nothing but wishful thinking & fantasy island theology but has nothing to do with Gods world of reality.
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According to the <ahem> standard model, you must be dead to go to Hell, right? Then you suffer in the fire everlastingly, correct? ...But you must be alive to suffer, yes? But you're dead... The standard model leads to confusion, IMHO.
Another problem, no, two problems:
1. Death will be defeated/destroyed. See First Corinthians 15:26 and the taunt against death in Hosea 13:14, echoed in First Corinthians 15:54-55. Now, if Hell is still full of the wicked dead, how can that taunt be made, and how can death be destroyed, let alone defeated?
2. God is going to become All in all. See First Corinthians 15:28. Tell me how that can happen if some/most are in Hell.
I have yet to get a decent response to this on any forum in which I have asked it.
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1213
Disciple of Jesus
Yes, but not all are his sheep.
But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:26-28
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Dead doesn't mean cease to exist. Death is just a temporary separation of the body from mans spirit/soul.
And the same with destroy. Jesus said " destroy" this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again.
His body( temple) was destroyed (died) yet was raised back to life in 3 days.
hope this helps !!!
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When Jesus died( temple destroyed- His Body) was He still alive in paradise ? yes or no
And remember what He said to the criminal on the cross- Today you shall be with ME in Paradise.
hope this helps !!!
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Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scriptures out-of-context and jamming them together to make it appear it is one continuous narrative.
When Paul wrote 1 Cor 15 did he forget what he wrote in 1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Now let us look at the destruction of death.9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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In the same chapter we read this.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
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Again, it does not. Here is my position on what Jesus said to the thief:
Crucified, Jesus told the thief who perceived His Lordship, “Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. I know that it is almost universally taught that Jesus and the thief were both in paradise THAT DAY, but is it so?
Yes, Jesus and the thief would be together in paradise, at some point in time.
Jesus and the thief both died that day.
Being dead, the thief was in sheol, and still is, as Jesus said, “…no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven…” (John 3:13).
Having taken on our sins, Jesus received the wages of sin (death) “in spades” – yes, He was also dead, very dead, in sheol.
Jesus was helled in the tomb, and undertaken in the bowels of the earth, but He was not in the Hell of Dante, Milton, Baxter or Edwards. The wages of sin are death, just as God says, not a ticket to Hell.
Jesus was “helled” for three days and nights, but He was not held, for He rose from the dead, just as we know that the gift of God is eternal Life.
He told Mary on the morning of His resurrection that He had not yet risen to His Father, so His having been to paradise at that time is doubtful.
The original Greek did not have commas, so the placement of the comma depends on what did or did not happen on that day. “Verily I say unto thee to day,…” is every bit as valid as “Verily I say unto thee, to day…”. However, the former comma placement fits better with what I have pointed out above. It really looks like Jesus and the thief did not make the scene in paradise that day, at least, the thief did not, so the verse should be punctuated so: “Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” It still makes sense grammatically, and is much more consistent with the context. Those who argue that “I say unto thee to day...” is not a phrase common to the time and place, and therefore the comma should go as the KJV has it, are arguing an irrelevant point.
So, my answer is "no."
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There is another verse where Jesus uses almost identical words.
Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Jesus did not mean that someday Peter would deny Him but that very night.Jesus would not need to tell the criminal "I say unto you to day, shall you be with me in paradise." The criminal knew Jesus was talking to him that day and not some other day.
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Even if what you say is correct, the thief could NOT possibly have been with Jesus in Paradise that day - because he, the thief, was dead. There is no getting around it: the dead are really dead.
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How does that view fit with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
And if you claim it is a parable (rather than a story) and not to be taken literally, why would Jesus give such misleading information about the state of the dead?
I also find 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV translation.
Reading those passages indicates that the residents of the realm are in a conscious existence in the afterlife. (Isaiah 14:9)
Furthermore, Jesus had this to say about the "dead".
Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
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When Jesus died on the cross, he tasted death for all men (Heb 2:9). So he died as a representative of human perishables (Jn 11:50). As Adam brought sin into the world, whose wages is death, so Jesus as the last Adam brought the life-giving spirit (1 Cor 15:45). From sin and death in the flesh to reconciliation and life in the spirit.
So all are alive to God because the spirit is immortal, and God is spirit. Deep calls to deep (Ps 42:7). To know God is the life eternal (Jn 17:3), the life of the Spirit, and to lack knowledge of God is to perish (Hos 4:6) in Adam.
Those living in the flesh, in Adam, cannot understand, for what fellowship has darkness with light. But we are of God and we know the whole world lies in the grip of the evil one. God sent Jesus into the world to save it, not condemn it. And so salvation comes by the life of the spirit which is the knowledge of God, the gift of truth and grace in the incarnate word. He is the alpha and the omega, and all authority has been given to him.
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What I said is correct no ifs, ands, or buts but you are so busy trying to think of something to say which might possibly refute what I post that you miss the point entirely.
As for the dead being really dead read Luke 16:19-31 also Isaiah 14:4-19 and Ezekiel 32:20-21 and Ezekiel 31:30-31
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Question: If the dead are not really dead, what is the Resurrection for...?
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