First Presidential debate will be too late: many States will have already started voting!

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

eclipsenow said:
I know - free medicare for all would be terrible. It might just lower the national health bill and result in longer lifespans for Americans!
View attachment 282546
Health care in the United States - Wikipedia

You need to understand that free medical care for all means just that in the Dem's eyes. Free medical care for U.S. citizens and for illegals as well, now combine that with the fact that Biden said he would not build any more wall (because liberals are for open borders). So open borders, free medical care for all including illegals, our nation is going to become very popular with people who have existing medical conditions. That all sounds very nice and liberal until you think about what is going to happen to taxes because all this free stuff has to be paid for and the money comes from tax payers. When taxes go up spendable income goes down and the cost of goods goes up, and the economy hits the skids and unemployment goes up. Is that what you want?

Skreeper · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
You need to understand that free medical care for all means just that in the Dem's eyes. Free medical care for U.S. citizens and for illegals as well, now combine that with the fact that Biden said he would not build any more wall (because liberals are for open borders). So open borders, free medical care for all including illegals, our nation is going to become very popular with people who have existing medical conditions. That all sounds very nice and liberal until you think about what is going to happen to taxes because all this free stuff has to be paid for and the money comes from tax payers. When taxes go up spendable income goes down and the cost of goods goes up, and the economy hits the skids and unemployment goes up. Is that what you want?

That's a nice strawman you've built there. Too bad that the cult of Trump cannot argue honestly.

That's why I think only bad and despicable people still support him after these 4 years. At the beginning I kinda understood why people voted for him.

But if you honestly believe that after these catastrophic 4 years Trump is still a good president with good ideas then you're either really dumb or your moral character is highly questionable.

I mean how can you watch something like this and still support the guy???

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

Skreeper said:
That's a nice strawman you've built there. Too bad that the cult of Trump cannot argue honestly.

That's why I think only bad and despicable people still support him after these 4 years. At the beginning I kinda understood why people voted for him.

But if you honestly believe that after these catastrophic 4 years Trump is still a good president with good ideas then you're either really dumb or your moral character is highly questionable.

I mean how can you watch something like this and still support the guy???

I have no idea where you see a straw man, you may not like these things being pointed out to potential voters but they are reasonable and logical.

Skreeper · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
I have no idea where you see a straw man, you may not like these things being pointed out to potential voters but they are reasonable and logical.

The strawman is that you think any current center-left politician is seriously arguing for open borders.

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

Skreeper said:
The strawman is that you think any current center-left politician is seriously arguing for open borders.

Well if you watched the primary debates and follow political news I think you would know. Biden ‘Unity’ Plan Calls for Mass Amnesty, Open Borders

eclipsenow · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
You need to understand that free medical care for all means just that in the Dem's eyes. Free medical care for U.S. citizens and for illegals as well, now combine that with the fact that Biden said he would not build any more wall (because liberals are for open borders). So open borders, free medical care for all including illegals, our nation is going to become very popular with people who have existing medical conditions. That all sounds very nice and liberal until you think about what is going to happen to taxes because all this free stuff has to be paid for and the money comes from tax payers. When taxes go up spendable income goes down and the cost of goods goes up, and the economy hits the skids and unemployment goes up. Is that what you want?

This just shows you can't read graphs! In almost every other country we get longer lifespans for LESS money than your privatised healthcare system. Your system is basically overblown because it is run as a business on a for-profit motive. The theory of privatised healthcare sounded good - if you don't like Coke, choose Pepsi. But we're not talking about soda, but people not being able to think straight in an emergency. So nationalise the thing, pay doctors and nurses a decent wage, get the government to bulk buy medicine and equipment from the best and most efficient (not always cheapest, but cheapish) suppliers on the market and drive those prices down! As the rest of us have already done!

It's just sad how desperate so many Americans are for medical help that is out of their reach economically, and the right wing can only lie that nationalising it for all will drive prices up! Sorry - but the rest of the world proves you 100% WRONG! It will drive prices down - if you handle it right and maybe get some advice from health professionals in other countries.

We pay less and get more because we nationalised. It's not my opinion.

It's a fact!

But Oh No! Communism! Or something... and the rest of the world just scratch their heads and laugh at you guys!

EG: Your health care costs about DOUBLE Australia's on a per capita basis but you live shorter lifespans than us. So what on earth is going on?

EG: My son had Leukaemia when he was 5. Blood cancer. In America I probably would have had the extra stress of selling my house to fund his treatment. In Australia I practically lived in the public hospital cancer ward with him, unfolding a little cot to sleep next to his bed at night, and it was FREE!

This next graph is confusing at first, but being orange and left is bad, being blue or green and closer to the right is good.

"For example, the average cost in the U.S. for an MRI scan was $1,119, compared to $811 in New Zealand, $215 in Australia and $181 in Spain. However, data showed that 95th percentile in the price of this procedure in the U.S. was $3,031, meaning some people are paying nearly $3,000 more for a standard MRI scan in the U.S. than the average person in Australia and Spain. "
How U.S. Healthcare Costs Compare to Other Countries

VOX explaining what went wrong.

Second Thought explains:

Skreeper · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
Well if you watched the primary debates and follow political news I think you would know. Biden ‘Unity’ Plan Calls for Mass Amnesty, Open Borders

I have read the Unity plan. It does not include open borders, that is simply the twisted interpretation the right has. But for a nationalist I guess anything that even slightly hints at letting foreigners into the country counts as open borders.

Immigration needs to be easier, that much is certain.

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

eclipsenow said:
This just shows you can't read graphs! In almost every other country we get longer lifespans for LESS money than your privatised healthcare system. Your system is basically overblown because it is run as a business on a for-profit motive. The theory of privatised healthcare sounded good - if you don't like Coke, choose Pepsi. But we're not talking about soda, but people not being able to think straight in an emergency. So nationalise the thing, pay doctors and nurses a decent wage, get the government to bulk buy medicine and equipment from the best and most efficient (not always cheapest, but cheapish) suppliers on the market and drive those prices down! As the rest of us have already done!

It's just sad how desperate so many Americans are for medical help that is out of their reach economically, and the right wing can only lie that nationalising it for all will drive prices up! Sorry - but the rest of the world proves you 100% WRONG! It will drive prices down - if you handle it right and maybe get some advice from health professionals in other countries.

We pay less and get more because we nationalised.
It's not my opinion.
It's a fact! But Oh No! Communism! Or something... and the rest of the world just scratch their heads and laugh at you guys!

EG: Your health care costs about DOUBLE Australia's on a per capita basis but you live shorter lifespans than us. So what on earth is going on?

EG: My son had Leukaemia when he was 5. Blood cancer. In America I probably would have had the extra stress of selling my house to fund his treatment. In Australia I practically lived in the public hospital cancer ward with him, unfolding a little cot to sleep next to his bed at night, and it was FREE!

View attachment 282550

This next graph is confusing at first, but being orange and left is bad, being blue or green and closer to the right is good.
View attachment 282551

View attachment 282552

"For example, the average cost in the U.S. for an MRI scan was $1,119, compared to $811 in New Zealand, $215 in Australia and $181 in Spain. However, data showed that 95th percentile in the price of this procedure in the U.S. was $3,031, meaning some people are paying nearly $3,000 more for a standard MRI scan in the U.S. than the average person in Australia and Spain. "
How U.S. Healthcare Costs Compare to Other Countries
VOX explaining what went wrong.

Second Thought explains:

Hope you son recovered and is well today. I am not the person to talk with regarding health costs. My knowledge is limited there, I have always had been blessed with good insurance for my family. I only know that people in Canada seem to have to wait far too long for medical procedures and often came down to the U.S. and paid instead of waiting.

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

Skreeper said:
I have read the Unity plan. It does not include open borders, that is simply the twisted interpretation the right has. But for a nationalist I guess anything that even slightly hints at letting foreigners into the country counts as open borders.

Immigration needs to be easier, that much is certain.

lets just see what Biden has to say when he debates Trump. I say that because he is moving more and more to the left all the time. He has already gone past what he is comfortable with if you look at his record over the years. How far is he going to go?

eclipsenow · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
lets just see what Biden has to say when he debates Trump. I say that because he is moving more and more to the left all the time. He has already gone past what he is comfortable with if you look at his record over the years. How far is he going to go?

He's moving more to the left? America doesn't have a left - take it from an Aussie - Biden is just a cm left of the centrist line. Most of your political candidates are on the right - even the democrats.

Kentonio · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
Well spend just a little time looking at the liberals, how they operate and where they want to take this nation, then everything will become clear to you.

Doesn't help at all. When I look at liberals and moderate conservatives I just see people who want to improve the country and their own lives in a generally responsible way. Their opinions over how to achieve those goals may differ, but there's logic to it and a general desire to follow the law and conventions that America was built on (even if some want to evolve those to a more modern version).

With most Trump supporters I don't see that. They laugh as he stamps on centuries of convention and tradition, shrug as he ignores any parts of the constitution he doesn't like, cheer as he destroys any kind of separation of powers or oversight of governmental power, and snigger as he smears, insults and demeans anyone who dares disagree with him. This is a man who has claimed that as president he should be completely immune to any legal oversight, and his supporters apparently have no problem with that.

Yeah sorry, I don't understand that and after 3 years I don't care any more about trying to understand them.

RocksInMyHead · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
Hope you son recovered and is well today. I am not the person to talk with regarding health costs. My knowledge is limited there, I have always had been blessed with good insurance for my family. I only know that people in Canada seem to have to wait far too long for medical procedures and often came down to the U.S. and paid instead of waiting.

And people in the US can't afford medicines or treatments, and travel to Canada or Mexico to get them. Or just don't get them at all. Neither system is 100% perfect. But waiting on an elective surgery is a heck of a lot better than dying because you can't afford to go to the doctor or bankrupting yourself to pay for necessary medication. Overall, in a system that serves all, you're going to see more cases of people waiting for treatment because anyone can afford to get treatment. In a system like the US, those same people (and more) still exist - they just can't afford to go in for treatment in the first place, so the system isn't "aware" of them.

A country like Canada might have (making numbers up here) 10,000 people waiting on transplants while the US waiting list might be only 1,000 people long. However, what you're not seeing is the 50,000 other people in the US who need a transplant but either can't afford it or have no idea that they need it because they can't even afford to go to the doctor in the first place.

grasping the after wind · Aug 10, 2020

Pommer said:
Are you talking about the electoral college vote?

variant said:
Please cite the constitution if you're going to make claims like that because I don't see where you're pulling your info from.

Early voting has been a thing for decades, as have absentee ballots. Neither of which has run afoul of the constitution as far as I am aware.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing [sic] the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

RocksInMyHead · Aug 10, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
The Congress may determine the Time of chusing [sic] the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

That refers to the date that the electoral votes are cast.

grasping the after wind · Aug 10, 2020

Arcangl86 said:
The Constitution does not talk about Election Day. It talks about the time that the electors are chosen, and it talks about the day the electors cast their votes. It's only the second one that needs to be the same day.

And Congress has designated the first Tuesday in November as the time of chusing. So how is allowing chusing prior to that a reasonable interpretation of the clause?

RocksInMyHead · Aug 10, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
And Congress has designated the first Tuesday in November as the time of chusing. So how is allowing chusing prior to that a reasonable interpretation of the clause?

Are the electors chosen before the first Tuesday of November?

Arcangl86 · Aug 10, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
And Congress has designated the first Tuesday in November as the time of chusing. So how is allowing chusing prior to that a reasonable interpretation of the clause?

Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct.

grasping the after wind · Aug 10, 2020

RocksInMyHead said:
Are the electors chosen before the first Tuesday of November?

Yes. If I vote for an elector today, or any other day than the first Tuesday in November it will be before the First Tuesday in November.

RocksInMyHead · Aug 10, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
Yes. If I vote for an elector today, or any other day than the first Tuesday in November it will be before the First Tuesday in November.

You don't choose the electors. The state does, and it does so on the first Tuesday in November. The fact that some votes may have been submitted before that date is irrelevant.

variant · Aug 10, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
And Congress has designated the first Tuesday in November as the time of chusing. So how is allowing chusing prior to that a reasonable interpretation of the clause?

The states are to conduct their voting prior to the date the electoral college meets. Congress and election laws allow for early voting, otherwise all of the states that allow for early voting and absentee ballots are running afoul of the constitution (which they obviously are not).

First Presidential debate will be too late: many States will have already started voting!

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