Jumpy Cops Shoot/Kill Another Non-Threatening Citizen After False Alarm

Jonathan Walkerin

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If a crime was committed, I expect the officers to be charged.

That is always bit tricky for the state. Undermining the image, proficiency and legality of your own enforcers.

To a lesser extent the same problem you have with charging your military when they wipe out some innocent farmer’s wedding or shoot few too many prisoners trying to escape.
 
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Ana the Ist

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That is always bit tricky for the state. Undermining the image, proficiency and legality of your own enforcers.

I don't see it that way. Admitting people are flawed and no system is perfect doesn't undermine legitimacy, it strengthens it.

Anyone who expects a perfect system free of mistakes is a fool who will constantly be disappointed.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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I don't see it that way. Admitting people are flawed and no system is perfect doesn't undermine legitimacy, it strengthens it.

This is the case only if something is actually done after that undoubtedly useful self realization of “we screwed up here.”

Having a pilot of A10 strafe that little village wedding is not going to get the guy who put up the intel for the operation in any legal trouble.

Trump misusing his powers to pardon Roger Stone is not going to land him on legal troubles.

Cases like these do not strengthen legitimacy. They weaken it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This is the case only if something is actually done after that undoubtedly useful self realization of “we screwed up here.”

Having a pilot of A10 strafe that little village wedding is not going to get the guy who put up the intel for the operation in any legal trouble.

Trump misusing his powers to pardon Roger Stone is not going to land him on legal troubles.

Cases like these do not strengthen legitimacy. They weaken it.

This thread is about police....not whatever you seem to want to talk about here.
 
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disciple Clint

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I seem to remember a bit of support for this couple in previous threads
https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F200629131855-01-missouri-protests-couple-firearms.jpg


Wonder what the difference might be here versus there.
not a comparable situation in any respect.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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This thread is about police....not whatever you seem to want to talk about here.

Sure. You seemed fine talking about what undermines system’s legitimacy and what doesn’t few posts ago , but let’s do replace that word with police.

So police legitimacy is undermined their repeated screw ups and the perception that the state and the police are really only interested in self correction measures when those screw ups flare up and become a huge public PR problem for them.
 
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disciple Clint

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Think about it.

If you are already afraid enough to carry a gun when you go to your door in the middle of the night why would he believe it was the police even when they said so provided he even heard them in the first place ?

Then they stood aside the door - for safety reasons presumably - so he couldn’t even see them from the inside.

Criminals, being the clever and dastardly types, presumably could lie and deceive about their identities and intent.

Well, guess they could have both yelled through the door how everyone is armed and ready to fire hopefully without anyone panicking and starting to fire through the door.
OK so now comes the questions that have been running in my mind. Why did he have a gun in his hand? Was he about to use it on the woman he was having the altercation with? Did he know it was the police at the door and have some reason to arm himself? What is the story behind the story?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Sure. You seemed fine talking about what undermines system’s legitimacy and what doesn’t few posts ago , but let’s do replace that word with police.

I thought it was rather obvious which system I was talking about.

So police legitimacy is undermined their repeated screw ups.

Is it possible to have an armed population to the degree the US has and a policing system that doesn't on occasion mistakenly take someone's life?
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Is it possible to have an armed population and a policing system that doesn't on occasion mistakenly take someone's life?

Probably not.

The issue we are discussing here is how those mistakes are handled, what leads to them and how they could be mitigated.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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OK so now comes the questions that have been running in my mind. Why did he have a gun in his hand? Was he about to use it on the woman he was having the altercation with? Did he know it was the police at the door and have some reason to arm himself? What is the story behind the story?

Strange mind you have.

Instead of him just deciding to shoot the woman, or himself or his favorite underwear at the time the cops came how about the most reasonable explanation.

It was night and unexpectedly unknown people are knocking at your door.

You have a gun so presumably you are worried about stuff like that happening.

You grab the gun, open the door , spook the cops and get shot dead.

People die from stupid reason without ulterior motives all the time.

In all probability the guy wasn’t Obama’s twin sister in disguise preparing to unmask the reptilian puppet government of US when the hit squad sent by the deep state silenced him.
 
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disciple Clint

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This is the best screenshot I can manage from my ipad. He clearly tries to take a submissive posture by extending his left hand and going to the ground.

View attachment 282511
Thanks for trying, I do not doubt what you are seeing but even if he is going to a kneeling position, as long as he has control of the gun the officer is in mortal danger. Just for educational purposes there is a technique that prison inmates teach of going low and rushing an officer who has a gun pointed at them, shifting the point of aim can be effective.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Probably not.

The issue we are discussing here is how those mistakes are handled, what leads to them and how they could be mitigated.

I disagree...I actually agree with part of what you said. It's about perception.

Since we agree that mistakes will happen....we need to figure out what is a reasonable perception of when those mistakes constitute a significant problem.

I think we'd agree that if out of every 10 times a cop pulls their gun....1 mistake is made resulting in a dead cop or civilian, either by shooting or not shooting....we have a pretty serious problem that needs fixed, right?

What about if it's 1 in 1000 times? What about 1 in 10,000? What is the threshold for a problem?
 
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disciple Clint

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Strange mind you have.

Instead of him just deciding to shoot the woman, or himself or his favorite underwear at the time the cops came how about the most reasonable explanation.

It was night and unexpectedly unknown people are knocking at your door.

You have a gun so presumably you are worried about stuff like that happening.

You grab the gun, open the door , spook the cops and get shot dead.

People die from stupid reason without ulterior motives all the time.

In all probability the guy wasn’t Obama’s twin sister in disguise preparing to unmask the reptilian puppet government of US when the hit squad sent by the deep state silenced him.
Frankly I am happy to have what you would consider a strange mind. I have pounded on countless doors late at night and never been greeted with a firearm. DV calls are very dangerous calls for police and this incident is similar to several that have resulted in the shooting or death of officers. If a person has any doubt about opening a door at night they can ask who is at the door, if it is the police and the person cannot see them, all they have to do is say so, the dispatch center can call and verify that the person at the door is a police officer.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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If a person has any doubt about opening a door

That's the thing though. He probably hadn’t doubt about opening the door after he had armed himself.

He had a gun, he could protect himself or threaten someone if needed.

False sense of security for being armed and now he is a dead.
 
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disciple Clint

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That's the thing though. He probably hadn’t doubt about opening the door after he had armed himself.

He had a gun, he could protect himself or threaten someone if needed.

False sense of security for being armed and now he is a dead.
I think you are trying to build a case on sand. This unfortunate guy did just about everything wrong and he is certainly not representative of the average gun owner which is what you seem to be trying to say. A few people are going to do foolish things. should be eliminate electricity because some people electrocute themselves.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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What is the threshold for a problem?

Beats me. I have yet to see any study that indicates US as a society is a safer place for guns being readily available.

Or that gun ownership brings populace of ill trained civilians greater benefits than not owning a gun.

There is so much fear for things that are statistically so unlikely to ever happen for a person in US but media blows it out of the proportion and people would rather buy a shotgun than actually figure out statistically if they are ever going to need it or whatever it just made it that much more likely their kid will shoot someone with it.

This certainly includes the chances of getting shot by a cop or by anyone else either.

Statistics should beat perceptions.

Well, maybe one day.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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disciple Clint

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Beats me. I have yet to see any study that indicates US as a society is a safer place for guns being readily available.

Or that gun ownership brings populace of ill trained civilians greater benefits than not owning a gun.

There is so much fear for things that are statistically so unlikely to ever happen for a person in US but media blows it out of the proportion and people would rather buy a shotgun than actually figure out statistically if they are ever going to need it or whatever it just made it that much more likely their kid will shoot someone with it.

This certainly includes the chances of getting shot by a cop or by anyone else either.

Statistics should beat perceptions.

Well, maybe one day.
the best time to calculate those statistics is when someone is kicking in your front door, they are armed but you have a firm hold on the laws of probability
 
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