The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

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keras

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so I guess you don't believe in teh Trinity either. That weord doesn't appear in teh Bible either! Do you really want to be that silly?

So instead of calling it the rapture, call it teh great snatching away or the great harpagmos
Be nice if you could spell 'the' correctly!
The trinity? God does give Jesus all authority on earth. But in heaven?; no.

Yes I totally reject a 'rapture to heaven. Jesus refutes it. John 3:13.
There will be a gathering when Jesus Returns. To where His is. Matthew 24:30-31
You sound more like a Jehovah Witness than a believer here.
The usual nasty aspersion.
 
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eclipsenow

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  • Ignores why John said he was writing Revelation Reply; Who does That?
You do when you ignore the 4 reasons I say John was writing to his generation! YOU IGNORE THAT - he wrote a specific message to a specific generation that all generations after learn from - just as we learn by reading the epistles and gospels. You should be able to recite the 4 reasons: SOON, NEAR, SHARES THEIR TRIBULATIONS, wants them to HEAR AND OBEY his message.

  1. Makes a mockery of the very real tribulations Roman Christians went under R/ How do you get that?
Because you're saying John couldn't be bothered to write to the Roman Christians about the tribulations HE SHARED WITH THEM - but instead
  • Makes a mockery of Christianity and calls into question the whole system of belief in the eyes of unbelievers when futurists like yourself keep guessing and failing to guess the mysterious Day of the Lord. R/ I do not guess the DoL , but you are right this bad practice is the 'cry wolf' syndrome.
Except your whole 2030 thing is a guess that's going to appear absurd as it comes and goes with nothing happening. Especially when it's not based on actual prophecies ABOUT the 'millennium' but about a call to repent and a rebuke to Herod.
  • I checked the news and they still haven't bombed the Dome of the Rock? When are they going to start building? R/ The Lord will do that. Wait for the Day!
So it's an entirely miraculous temple that GOD is going to throw down from heaven and then the AntiChrist is going to stand in? Doesn't that even disgregard Saint LaHaye's 'time-table' in the Left Behind series where we humans at least build the temple under the UN?:oldthumbsup:

  • Oh - and how does it both happen in Jerusalem and also get built on a huge mountain that doesn't exist yet as depicted in Ezekiel - that other great 'literal' prophecy you insist will be fulfilled literally? :oldthumbsup: R/ There will be tectonic plate shifting on the Day of the Lords wrath. Revelation 6:14b
But doesn't the temple have to be built BEFORE the Day of the Lord's wrath (which is actually a flash-forward to the Last Day Judgement) because... after the Day of the Lord's wrath / Judgement Day we're all in Paradise anyway?:doh:
What? In what sense? I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I thought futurists thought there would be a 3rd temple for the antichrist to stand in and then the millennium. What are you saying?
  • These guessing games would all be too funny if it wasn't so sad and so utterly embarrassing to the Lord Jesus and so damaging to evangelism. R/ We read the Bible; it tells us what God plans to do. I make no apology for pointing it out.
Except Hosea 6 and Luke 13 don't come near saying anything you want them to say.
  • What is your version of the end-times-table - Version 26,986.5.1? R/ I have posted the Bible version of Gods 7000 year timetable. Your rejection and denigration of it is on your head.
I love how superior and sad and martyr-like futurists are and then when their silly over-writing of scripture is exposed as lies by the passage of time they just get all sulky. So in your head we're going to have a new temple, antichrist, tribulations, worldwide government persecution of Christians, and then the Lord's return in about 9.5 years and then the Millennium.

Riiiiiiight. Sorry - but I believe the bible would be clearer on all that and not rely on a REALLY ATROCIOUS reading-over of 2 verses and then applying a third verse (Peter's day like a 1000 years) to then unpack a fourth chunk, the tribulations, in some grand decoding exercise that only YOU have come up with!

Dude - I think you forgot to take your meds.
 
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Timtofly

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SOON, NEAR, SHARES THEIR TRIBULATIONS, wants them to HEAR AND OBEY his message.
Those are the same 4 reasons Revelation is literally for us today. In fact every generation has the same four reasons for reading Revelation. Nothing has changed in 1990 years. Literally nothing. Now men have evolved technologically. Some nations have taken over and destroyed those settled before them. Some times life is easy, sometimes life is hard. Humans still sin. Humans can still turn to Christ. Wars come and go. Satan acts the same today has Satan acted 2500 years ago. Human theology still speculates the future and the past.

Solomon would literally be amazed, despite technology, there is still nothing new under the sun, since even his day. We suppose that technology makes things better. In reality it makes the divide between human failure and human goodness even more defined. Satan knew the one world Babylonian attempt, did not and would not, ever work. Satan does not care. Being separated around the world is the achievement of liberty. Being of one mind takes all liberty away. That is the effect of a sin nature. Removing the sin nature is the only resolution. And the creation cannot remove what God set in place. Only God can remove that condition from Adam's descendants.
 
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eclipsenow

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Those are the same 4 reasons Revelation is literally for us today. In fact every generation has the same four reasons for reading Revelation. Nothing has changed in 1990 years. Literally nothing. Now men have evolved technologically. Some nations have taken over and destroyed those settled before them. Some times life is easy, sometimes life is hard. Humans still sin. Humans can still turn to Christ. Wars come and go. Satan acts the same today has Satan acted 2500 years ago. Human theology still speculates the future and the past.

Solomon would literally be amazed, despite technology, there is still nothing new under the sun, since even his day. We suppose that technology makes things better. In reality it makes the divide between human failure and human goodness even more defined. Satan knew the one world Babylonian attempt, did not and would not, ever work. Satan does not care. Being separated around the world is the achievement of liberty. Being of one mind takes all liberty away. That is the effect of a sin nature. Removing the sin nature is the only resolution. And the creation cannot remove what God set in place. Only God can remove that condition from Adam's descendants.
Words words words - but apply a Chapter like Rev 13 to today in a sermon. Go on. Apply it to John's generation. What do they get out of it if it's not to them or about them specifically? Because if it's to us and ABOUT us then it's not actually had anything to say to the church for about 2000 years. (Oh futurists - why do you always think it's about you when so many futurists generations ago, now long dead, also thought it was to them and about them? What futurist timetable are we up to now - 666? :oldthumbsup:)

Just like 1 Corinthians was to them and about them, but we can learn from it with good hermeneutics, so Revelation was to them and about the suffering he was about to share in with them. Indeed, he was already experiencing state persecution from the state that controlled the world. (The known world then, which is also roughly the dimensions of the new Jerusalem which marries heaven and the whole world.)

But if 90% of the book is about us, then John's generation would have read this letter with hope that it was going to help them in their suffering, and would have read "Letters to 7 churches, something... what...something....what.... the Lord will return one day?" :sigh: :scratch: :sigh: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
 
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Timtofly

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Words words words - but apply a Chapter like Rev 13 to today in a sermon. Go on. Apply it to John's generation. What do they get out of it if it's not to them or about them specifically? Because if it's to us and ABOUT us then it's not actually had anything to say to the church for about 2000 years. (Oh futurists - why do you always think it's about you when so many futurists generations ago, now long dead, also thought it was to them and about them? What futurist timetable are we up to now - 666? :oldthumbsup:)

Just like 1 Corinthians was to them and about them, but we can learn from it with good hermeneutics, so Revelation was to them and about the suffering he was about to share in with them. Indeed, he was already experiencing state persecution from the state that controlled the world. (The known world then, which is also roughly the dimensions of the new Jerusalem which marries heaven and the whole world.)

But if 90% of the book is about us, then John's generation would have read this letter with hope that it was going to help them in their suffering, and would have read "Letters to 7 churches, something... what...something....what.... the Lord will return one day?" :sigh: :scratch: :sigh: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
You do not have to take this so personally. John wrote it. Revelation is his burden to carry. John will be just fine.
 
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eclipsenow

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You do not have to take this so personally. John wrote it. Revelation is his burden to carry. John will be just fine.
You're avoiding the questions I've put to you.
Your choice.
It impacts on your credibility with any lurkers, not mine.
 
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Timtofly

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You're avoiding the questions I've put to you.
Your choice.
It impacts on your credibility with any lurkers, not mine.
I am not a futurist. Just pre-mil. What is a futurist? All the OT prophets were futurist. Jesus and his disciples were futurist. The apostles were futurist. What is a futurist to you?
 
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eclipsenow

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I am not a futurist. Just pre-mil. What is a futurist? All the OT prophets were futurist. Jesus and his disciples were futurist. The apostles were futurist. What is a futurist to you?
Apart from the obvious gospel prophecy that the Lord will one day return, anyone that says Revelations is 'in the future'. Anyone that says xyz stuff has to happen before the Lord returns on Judgement Day to judge the living and the dead and usher in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Anyone with a 'timetable' of 'prophecies' they think are unfulfilled - despite the sufficient work of Jesus on the cross to fulfil everything we know about Israel being the people of God that we now call the church, the fulfilment of the law and the sacrifices and the temple and the land.
Basically most Amils would say that everything necessary was completed in Jesus death and resurrection and the gospel reaching the ends of the earth (Rome) in Acts. Maybe some recognise the temple falling in AD70 as a fulfilment of Jesus talking about the temple being destroyed - but some Amils debate even that. (But there's even debate about that and it's a huge technical debate - too technical to get into right now.)

We're not waiting for anything else. The Lord could return in the blink of an eye and do it all. There's no antiChrist to worry about - other than your neighbour. There's no one-world government - John was more or less describing Rome. There's nothing yet to be done. It's all ready to go! The New Heavens and New Earth and Judgement Day could arrive at any moment!

But there ARE all these things to worry about - because governments do still turn bad and go against God's people. So Moslem governments that persecute the church are 'AntiChrist' governments - beast states. Globalisation is moving in certain directions of trade on the back of child-slaves in some areas that should concern us and what we buy. Revelation describes themes we see repeated through history, but it does not prescribe them. It's not a game of guess-the-code. It's a sermon. To be obeyed by John's generation, and every generation following!
 
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keras

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You do when you ignore the 4 reasons I say John was writing to his generation! YOU IGNORE THAT - he wrote a specific message to a specific generation that all generations after learn from - just as we learn by reading the epistles and gospels. You should be able to recite the 4 reasons: SOON, NEAR, SHARES THEIR TRIBULATIONS, wants them to HEAR AND OBEY his message.
But John didn't write to his generation, that is patently obvious. The prophesied events from Rev 6:12 remain to be fulfilled and for Jesus to Return.
Except your whole 2030 thing is a guess that's going to appear absurd as it comes and goes with nothing happening. Especially when it's not based on actual prophecies ABOUT the 'millennium' but about a call to repent and a rebuke to Herod.
A bit premature in your degrading response, aren't you?
Your ideas of nothing much happening before Jesus Returns, is very optimistic to say the least!
As for Luke 13:32 not being a prophecy about the 2000 year Church, when Jesus will be driving out demons and working cures, which He continues to do today; then achieving His goal, of His Returning as King Jesus for the final 1000 year period of the 7000 decreed time for mankind, I contend that your interpretation of that verse is wrong. Did those Pharisee's actually say to Herod what Jesus said? If they did, which I very much doubt, then for sure Herod just ignored it.
You have shown your extreme preterist and prophecy rejecting colors in this issue.
So it's an entirely miraculous temple that GOD is going to throw down from heaven and then the AntiChrist is going to stand in?
Your confusion and wrong thinking knows no bounds!
The Lord will destroy the Dome of the Rock on His Day of fiery wrath.
The new citizens of all the holy Land will build a new Temple on the Temple platform in Jerusalem. To the glory of God.
But doesn't the temple have to be built BEFORE the Day of the Lord's wrath (which is actually a flash-forward to the Last Day Judgement) because... after the Day of the Lord's wrath / Judgement Day we're all in Paradise anyway?
You are another who confuses the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath with His Return in glory. Plainly, indisputably; they are NOT the same event. To combine then, is to shuffle Revelation; not advisable.
We're going to Paradise? Where does the Bible say that? I need proof, or you are just making things up.
What? In what sense? I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. I thought futurists thought there would be a 3rd temple for the antichrist to stand in and then the millennium. What are you saying?
That is right. Some confusion arises when people call Herod's Temple the third one.
Only one more Temple and it will be gone after the Millennium. Revelation 21-22
So in your head we're going to have a new temple, antichrist, tribulations, worldwide government persecution of Christians, and then the Lord's return in about 9.5 years and then the Millennium.
So; in the Bible, it says those things will happen. Basically you reject the Bible.
You are the one needing meds!
 
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eclipsenow

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But John didn't write to his generation, that is patently obvious.

The first chapter shows we need to slow down and have another look at everything after Rev 6:12.
John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
The 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline. HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.
The Amil sermons I have heard on these chapters of Revelation are compelling. There's something about the apocalyptic language applied to the nastier side of life this side of the Lord's return that lifts it up and illustrates it in a powerful way.


As for Luke 13:32 not being a prophecy about the 2000 year Church, when Jesus will be driving out demons and working cures, which He continues to do today;
Ah, so you REALLY can't read Luke 13:32!
He said he was going to do some ministry and then die in Jerusalem.
It's not my fault YOU can't read your own proof-texts - but there it is.

31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!​
He was having a go at Jerusalem's history of killing the prophets.
He was saying he must go to die.
He was talking about the gospel.
But I guess the gospel just isn't as important to you as that ridiculous 2000 years you want to wring out of this passage and somehow translate into a prediction about his return? Nah, who cares about the gospel when there's a crazy wall to justify!

then achieving His goal, of His Returning as King Jesus for the final 1000 year period of the 7000 decreed time for mankind, I contend that your interpretation of that verse is wrong.
You 'contend' do you?
Sorry pal - but all you've done is reassert your same tired old message - the same tired old misreading of Jesus travel plans and farewell song. He was announcing his death - but you want to twist it into your irrelevant, annoying, cluttered little end-times-table. It's just petty of you to pass over what Jesus was really saying here!

Did those Pharisee's actually say to Herod what Jesus said? If they did, which I very much doubt, then for sure Herod just ignored it.
Irrelevant.
You have shown your extreme preterist and prophecy rejecting colors in this issue.
Partial Preterist - if you're going to use big words, try to use them right.

The Lord will destroy the Dome of the Rock on His Day of fiery wrath. The new citizens of all the holy Land will build a new Temple on the Temple platform in Jerusalem. To the glory of God.
See - this is where you make the New Testament warning about Judgement Day into a kind of b-grade Sci-Fi. God's going to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the rest of the world with it? Strike that! He's going to judge all his enemies!? Strike that - he's going to perform a miraculous destruction of the mosque so that... we can build a new temple on it again so that ... the AntiChrist can ... something...

You are another who confuses the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath with His Return in glory.
Plainly, indisputably; they are NOT the same event. To combine then, is to shuffle Revelation; not advisable.
I have already shared Paul Barnett's description of the overall structure of Revelation. It's not a timetable but a waltz through history, going around and around and around.
 
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keras

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The dome of the rock is not where the Temple was Keras:
The DoR is an Islamic shrine. It cannot remain on the Temple Mount. Also the Al Asqa mosque must go. The Lord will do it on His Day of fiery wrath. Amos 2:5
 
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keras

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I have already shared Paul Barnett's description of the overall structure of Revelation. It's not a timetable but a waltz through history, going around and around and around.
I reject Paul Barnett's and your ideas on Revelation.
Waltz thru history?
Too bad that no actual historical record even comes close to this crazy idea.
Ah, so you REALLY can't read Luke 13:32!
I read it correctly and Luke 13:33 is not and cannot be referring to the same events.
 
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keras

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There will be a great Day of vengeance and wrath against the enemies of the Lord and it seems that it may be the next dramatic happening that we will experience here on earth.

Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this coming from Edom?.... in power and victory....I trod on the nations in My anger, their blood stained My garments. I resolved on a Day of vengeance, the year for redeeming My own had come.

Rev 14:14-16 ...there appeared a Man wearing a gold crown and with a sickle in His hand. He swept over the earth with His sickle and the earth was reaped.

These two passages describe the Lord Jesus carrying out God’s judgement on His enemies. This must take place before His glorious Return, because at that time, He is described as coming robed in a garment dyed in blood. Rev 19:13


Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord is coming in fire, [not on the clouds, in glory, as at the Return] His sword will test mankind. Many will be slain. The Lord’s enemies will all meet their end.

Micah 5:15 In anger and fury, I shall wreak vengeance on the nations who disobey Me.

Psalms 50:1-3…. Our God is coming, in consuming fire and a raging storm.

Habakkuk 3:12 Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.

Isaiah 59:15-18 The Lord was displeased...outraged... so He put on garments of vengeance. According to their wicked deeds, He will repay.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all evildoers will be stubble.

Hebrews 10:27 A terrifying judgement of fire that will consume Gods enemies.


So, the Lords vengeance is to be as ‘a consuming fire, burning like a furnace’. 2 Peter 3:7 This can be paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47...I am about to kindle a fire in the Negev, its fiery flame will scorch everyone to the North. This passage and others, is describing a Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun. Proved by Isaiah 30:26a, Psalms 50:1-3, Malachi 4:1
This will happen at the moment the attackers of Israel prepare to strike. Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 21:2... Advance Elam, up Media to the siege! Do not hesitate! [Elam & Media = Iran] Many prophecies tell of the destruction of Israel’s attackers. Amos 1, Jeremiah 49:35-37, Psalms 83:1-18, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-5

But, for all Christian believers, who trust the Lord, we have: Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for the judgement to begin – it is beginning with Gods own household. [In the holy Land]
Isaiah 35:4 Say to the anxious; be strong! God will save you, at the time of His vengeance. Isaiah 30:26b

Jeremiah 12:14-17 These are the words of the Lord; all those evil peoples who have encroached onto the Land, which I allotted to My people, Israel as their holding, I shall uproot them. Also I shall uproot Judah, but I shall have pity on them and bring them back, IF they learn the ways [Christian faith] of My People. The nation that will not change its ways, I shall destroy.

This passage clearly tells about the clearance of the Land of Israel, which will happen as a result of the Lords Day of wrath. Then it says that some Jews may return, provided they believe in the Lord Jesus. This proves that by then, His people: all the Christian peoples of God, will have migrated to and settled into all of the holy Land. Rev 7:9
 
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eclipsenow

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I reject Paul Barnett's and your ideas on Revelation.
Waltz thru history?
Too bad that no actual historical record even comes close to this crazy idea.
Too bad that no rich people can jump through the eye of a needle.
It's too bad we all have to hate our parents.
It's too bad we all have to love everyone, even our parents.
It's too bad he came to bring a sword.
It's too bad he told Peter off for using a sword.

Honestly - there's this thing called recognising biblical symbols when you see them, and recognising literal writing when you see it.

I read it correctly and Luke 13:33 is not and cannot be referring to the same events.
Again - just reasserting something doesn't turn the trillionth re-assertion into new evidence.
Again - they're just both literary forms exploring exactly the same subject - Jesus going to complete his ministry and die for us. There is no evidence of anything else going on.
Again - you're just writing over the top of it what you want.
Again - any lurkers here can see how utterly absurd your 'argument' from these verses are!
Jesus is taking as long as he likes to finish his ministry and go down to Jerusalem! That's it!

Look, this is madness. There's just nothing in either of your foundational verses.
Let me illustrate. How would you disprove the following alternative timetable?
>>On the Great White Throne of Judgement Day the dead will be raised and judged. So we should expect any prophesies about the GWT Judgement Day to include judgement of God's enemies and resurrection. Fortunately I've found them, and they include a timetable we can understand - and they confirm each other! One Old Testament prophesy, and one New Testament prophecy.
Amos 1 repeats the prophesy in judgement on the nations throughout Chapter 1 and 2:-
“For three sins of Damascus,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Gaza,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Tyre,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Edom,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Ammon,
even for four, I will not relent....
“For three sins of Moab,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Judah,
even for four, I will not relent....
“For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not relent....

Four = 4 days * Peter's 1000 years like a day - 4000 years!
Naturally we should also expect Resurrection to be part of the end-times prophesies so we can recognise That Day. Fortunately we have such a record!
John 11:17 says "On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days."
Did you get that? Lazarus was raised on the 4th day! There's just no way around it - because there is both Judgement and Resurrection on the 4th day!

Except, my Amos prophesy is not counting days - it's counting sins. The same with Hosea - it's not counting millennia or even really days. Bible Commenter G. Herbert Livinston says "Hosea does not have in mind the resurrection of Jesus when he utters the phrase the third day he will restore us (v.2). The device of stating consecutive numbers (2....3) is fairly common in the Old testament. In Amos 1:2-2-6 this numerical sequence seems to designate many sins, whereas in Hosea it seems to denote a quick occurrence."
 
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Lost4words

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The DoR is an Islamic shrine. It cannot remain on the Temple Mount. Also the Al Asqa mosque must go. The Lord will do it on His Day of fiery wrath. Amos 2:5

Its not the Temple mount though.

Check out the videos i posted. Truth and facts there!
 
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eclipsenow

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The best thing he's said is the abomination occurs 3.5 years before the end, so he projected 2029 - 3.5 = 2025 sometime.

I'll be watching Israel closely! My only regret - Keras may sadly not be here to watch this deadline come and go. But at least I'm comforted that Keras seems saved, and will be with our Lord if that happened. Hang in there old man!

We've got a deadline to watch.:clap:
 
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Timtofly

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Apart from the obvious gospel prophecy that the Lord will one day return, anyone that says Revelations is 'in the future'. Anyone that says xyz stuff has to happen before the Lord returns on Judgement Day to judge the living and the dead and usher in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Anyone with a 'timetable' of 'prophecies' they think are unfulfilled - despite the sufficient work of Jesus on the cross to fulfil everything we know about Israel being the people of God that we now call the church, the fulfilment of the law and the sacrifices and the temple and the land.
Basically most Amils would say that everything necessary was completed in Jesus death and resurrection and the gospel reaching the ends of the earth (Rome) in Acts. Maybe some recognise the temple falling in AD70 as a fulfilment of Jesus talking about the temple being destroyed - but some Amils debate even that. (But there's even debate about that and it's a huge technical debate - too technical to get into right now.)

We're not waiting for anything else. The Lord could return in the blink of an eye and do it all. There's no antiChrist to worry about - other than your neighbour. There's no one-world government - John was more or less describing Rome. There's nothing yet to be done. It's all ready to go! The New Heavens and New Earth and Judgement Day could arrive at any moment!

But there ARE all these things to worry about - because governments do still turn bad and go against God's people. So Moslem governments that persecute the church are 'AntiChrist' governments - beast states. Globalisation is moving in certain directions of trade on the back of child-slaves in some areas that should concern us and what we buy. Revelation describes themes we see repeated through history, but it does not prescribe them. It's not a game of guess-the-code. It's a sermon. To be obeyed by John's generation, and every generation following!
I get it, eschatology is not your thing. Why are you compelled to change Scripture to say eschatology is not a thing? If we are in a generation to heed the Revelation sermon, then 1000 years is still future, because John did not say the 1000 years starts when the church thinks it starts. John says the 1000 years starts when God says it will start. Revelation is just the same sermon as it has been for the last 1990 years. Every generation has faced the same world every morning they wake up and see the sun in the sky. Nothing in this sermon has happened that this sermon says to be looking for. The generation after 70AD knew this fact. What changed in 1960 to what those in 80 knew? Nothing has changed. Literally, the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is still just around the corner as it has been the last 1990 years.

If you want to say it has been symbolically around the same symbolic corner for an indefinite long period of time, go for it. Symbolically you cannot say it happened. What are your symbols of proof that did not exist prior to 80AD? What is your symbol of proof, that resurrected dead people have been reigning with Christ on earth. Even symbolically, reigning on earth does not mean reigning in heaven.

The kingdom is currently a spiritual one with Christ reigning in heaven. Is the reign in heaven symbolic? If you say it is literal, then you have to claim a reign on earth is also literal. At least one should be spiritually honest and not play mind games and change the rules, etc, etc.
 
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Timtofly

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So in your head we're going to have a new temple, antichrist, tribulations, worldwide government persecution of Christians, and then the Lord's return in about 9.5 years and then the Millennium.

John says it happens in 3.5 years. It happens before Satan's 3.5 years. The Antichrist happens in Satan's 3.5 years, not before. Worldwide government is during Satan's 3.5 years, not before. Tribulation and persecution of "Christians" has not stopped since Jeroboam split the kingdom in revolt against Rehoboam. I guess Saul persecuted David out of jealousy, if you want to nit pick. Cain killed Abel. But you get the point.

Does it take 3 years to build anything these days? I mean, the Temple is probably already in pieces, stored somewhere safe, if God is doing the planning. It is a 3000 year old blueprint. It cannot be that complicated.

Why do futurist and their neigh sayers make eschatology so difficult and mind bending? When God says something is over, it is over. Neither human procrastination nor preterist, can change God's plans.
 
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Too bad that no rich people can jump through the eye of a needle.
It's too bad we all have to hate our parents.
It's too bad we all have to love everyone, even our parents.
It's too bad he came to bring a sword.
It's too bad he told Peter off for using a sword.

Honestly - there's this thing called recognising biblical symbols when you see them, and recognising literal writing when you see it.


Again - just reasserting something doesn't turn the trillionth re-assertion into new evidence.
Again - they're just both literary forms exploring exactly the same subject - Jesus going to complete his ministry and die for us. There is no evidence of anything else going on.
Again - you're just writing over the top of it what you want.
Again - any lurkers here can see how utterly absurd your 'argument' from these verses are!
Jesus is taking as long as he likes to finish his ministry and go down to Jerusalem! That's it!

Look, this is madness. There's just nothing in either of your foundational verses.
Let me illustrate. How would you disprove the following alternative timetable?
>>On the Great White Throne of Judgement Day the dead will be raised and judged. So we should expect any prophesies about the GWT Judgement Day to include judgement of God's enemies and resurrection. Fortunately I've found them, and they include a timetable we can understand - and they confirm each other! One Old Testament prophesy, and one New Testament prophecy.
Amos 1 repeats the prophesy in judgement on the nations throughout Chapter 1 and 2:-
“For three sins of Damascus,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Gaza,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Tyre,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Edom,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Ammon,
even for four, I will not relent....
“For three sins of Moab,
even for four, I will not relent...
“For three sins of Judah,
even for four, I will not relent....
“For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not relent....

Four = 4 days * Peter's 1000 years like a day - 4000 years!
Naturally we should also expect Resurrection to be part of the end-times prophesies so we can recognise That Day. Fortunately we have such a record!
John 11:17 says "On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days."
Did you get that? Lazarus was raised on the 4th day! There's just no way around it - because there is both Judgement and Resurrection on the 4th day!

Except, my Amos prophesy is not counting days - it's counting sins. The same with Hosea - it's not counting millennia or even really days. Bible Commenter G. Herbert Livinston says "Hosea does not have in mind the resurrection of Jesus when he utters the phrase the third day he will restore us (v.2). The device of stating consecutive numbers (2....3) is fairly common in the Old testament. In Amos 1:2-2-6 this numerical sequence seems to designate many sins, whereas in Hosea it seems to denote a quick occurrence."
It was 4 days, 4000 years between Adam's disobedience and the Cross. Just saying.
 
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