My simple proof that God's Will is not always performed

Hank77 · Aug 9, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
“I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.” Jer 10:23

God also said this...
Jer 19:4
Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

And here...
Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God clearly says that He did not cause Judah to sin.

John Mullally · Aug 9, 2020

In every large congregation, and Peter was used to addressing large crowds, there are going to be some unbelievers and backsliders - and they would be included in the "you".

Also there is 1 John 2:2 where the atonement is stated as applying for the whole world:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John Mullally · Aug 9, 2020

Hank77 said:
God also said this...
Jer 19:4
Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

And here...
Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God clearly says that He did not cause Judah to sin.

Agreed:

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Mark Quayle · Aug 9, 2020

Hank77 said:
God also said this...
Jer 19:4
Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

And here...
Jer 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God clearly says that He did not cause Judah to sin.

I do not deny actual, responsible choice that has even eternal consequences. And I think I could make your case better than you did. God has ordained that man is responsible for his own choices, yet man will inexorably choose to do according to God's plan. This, according to some, makes God to blame, but God is not one of us, to be blamed for anything.

Your use of the phrase "neither came it into my mind, that they should do this" in this way seems to me to imply that you believe then, that not only did God not intend that they should do this, but that he didn't know that they would. The rest of scripture will show neither to be the case. His intentions can be said to be like the two kinds of will of God. No, his command was never for them to do that, nor did he intend that they should do such an abomination. Was he then surprised that they did?

Do you propose a God who flies by the seat of his pants, salvaging bad situations and turning them to good by his great wisdom-- a God who sees all, but did not know all when he set about creating all?

Hank77 · Aug 9, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
I do not deny actual, responsible choice that has even eternal consequences. And I think I could make your case better than you did. God has ordained that man is responsible for his own choices, yet man will inexorably choose to do according to God's plan. This, according to some, makes God to blame, but God is not one of us, to be blamed for anything.

I think when God says that it hadn't entered His mind/heart He meant just that. If it hadn't entered His mind then it wasn't His plan.
To blame God for man's sins because it's His plan and they can't resist doing the evil that God planned is a shameful theological teaching, imo.

John Mullally · Aug 9, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
How does Jesus' temptation imply any lack of control on God's part? See Job, how God restrains Satan, and even incites him to do his worst. See Ahab, how God incites the demon to put a lie in the mouth of Ahab's prophets. Or if your argument is that Satan, being the God of this World and having earthly kingdoms to offer, is sovereign over all things under his influence, he most certainly is not, in spite of his own measure of control. God controls Satan like a dog on a leash. Satan is only a tool in God's control. Or if your argument is that it would not truly be a temptation to Jesus who is Lord over all, "we do not at present see all things under his feet", though he is indeed Lord of All. Right now, we see through a veil, darkly. Time is pervasive in our world, not God's. Jesus was also bound by time, and by logical sequence of cause and effect. He would rather not have to die for our sins "Yet, not my will, but Yours".

To your thinking, God does not control all things, in spite of verses like, "...predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Eph 1:11

Borrowed from John Piper *and there are many verses like this Prov 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground — whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.

The king's heart is like a watercourse in the hand of the Lord. He directs it wherever he pleases. Prov 21:1

“I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.” Jer 10:23

If you wanted to find them you could find many, many more verses to make my point. Apparently it is only a problem for you.

You say that we see through a glass darkly - Big Amen. That's why I don't try very hard to figure out how God does His business and stick to what God is directing.

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Your reply was not overt in the claim but seems to imply that God depends on or allows one or two things that are logical impossibilities. If God backs off and "allows" anything uncontrolled to happen, then either chance determines what happens, and/or there are little sovereigns running about the earth, uncaused "first causes" controlling their own destinies.

Chance can logically determine nothing -- it is self-contradictory to say it can. And logically, there can be only one first cause.

Christians like to suppose, (though most don't really even think about it), that they decide quite independently from God's control. Yet most people, believers and non-believers admit to the law of causality (that all effects are caused), and that their decisions are based on or influenced by many factors. Well, logically then, if First Cause (God) is, (whether through a long chain of cause and effect or by direct action, "intervention", Christians like to say), what is really the difference? God causes, either way.

Simply God does not have to control every little thing in order to be sovereign. That God allows man to make freewill decisions reflects His love for man and is not a loss of control of any kind.

GaveMeJoy · Aug 10, 2020

disciple Clint said:
"The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign. God has the ability to do anything, to take action and intervene in any situation, but He often chooses to act indirectly or to allow certain things for reasons of His own. His will is furthered in any case. God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. Everything that happens is, at the very least, the result of God’s permissive will. This holds true even if certain specific things are not what He would prefer. The right of God to allow mankind’s free choices is just as necessary for true sovereignty as His ability to enact His will, wherever and however He chooses."
What does it mean that God is sovereign? | GotQuestions.org

Ok so God sometimes works indirectly and prefers some things over others but allows the will of created beings to operate which results in things he isn’t in direct control of but permits?

If people make >choices< With their will, where do those choices come from? When we do things, we don’t shake a magic 8 ball or act randomly, we make decisions based on who we are, who God creates us to be, our sinful desires, our environment, and our experiences. God made us who we are, gave us our non-sinful desires, and permitted sin to enter the world which gives us our sinful desires. He formed us in our mother’s womb, allows us our family situation, nation of birth and all the experiences we have...all of the “us” that makes choices is from God. So really it’s a heavily controlled and modified choice. Only God can make choices independently. Right?

disciple Clint · Aug 10, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
Ok so God sometimes works indirectly and prefers some things over others but allows the will of created beings to operate which results in things he isn’t in direct control of but permits?

If people make >choices< With their will, where do those choices come from? When we do things, we don’t shake a magic 8 ball or act randomly, we make decisions based on who we are, who God creates us to be, our sinful desires, our environment, and our experiences. God made us who we are, gave us our non-sinful desires, and permitted sin to enter the world which gives us our sinful desires. He formed us in our mother’s womb, allows us our family situation, nation of birth and all the experiences we have...all of the “us” that makes choices is from God. So really it’s a heavily controlled and modified choice. Only God can make choices independently. Right?

No that would make God responsible for our sins and that would be completely wrong. But it might be a nice excuse, I am not responsible because God made me sin, good luck using that logic.

John Mullally · Aug 10, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
How does Jesus' temptation imply any lack of control on God's part? See Job, how God restrains Satan, and even incites him to do his worst. See Ahab, how God incites the demon to put a lie in the mouth of Ahab's prophets. Or if your argument is that Satan, being the God of this World and having earthly kingdoms to offer, is sovereign over all things under his influence, he most certainly is not, in spite of his own measure of control. God controls Satan like a dog on a leash. Satan is only a tool in God's control. Or if your argument is that it would not truly be a temptation to Jesus who is Lord over all, "we do not at present see all things under his feet", though he is indeed Lord of All. Right now, we see through a veil, darkly. Time is pervasive in our world, not God's. Jesus was also bound by time, and by logical sequence of cause and effect. He would rather not have to die for our sins "Yet, not my will, but Yours".

To your thinking, God does not control all things, in spite of verses like, "...predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Eph 1:11

Borrowed from John Piper *and there are many verses like this Prov 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground — whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.

The king's heart is like a watercourse in the hand of the Lord. He directs it wherever he pleases. Prov 21:1

“I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.” Jer 10:23

If you wanted to find them you could find many, many more verses to make my point. Apparently it is only a problem for you.

You are striving to understand the mechanics of how God is in Control in this fallen world. I think that you. like Job, have put yourself in a fight that God has not called you to.

John Mullally · Aug 10, 2020

Hank77 said:
I think when God says that it hadn't entered His mind/heart He meant just that. If it hadn't entered His mind then it wasn't His plan.
To blame God for man's sins because it's His plan and they can't resist doing the evil that God planned is a shameful theological teaching, imo.

Furthermore, to blame God for man's sins, sickness, and poverty is not scriptural according to the scriptural proof I provided in my opening post.

John Mullally · Aug 10, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
By the way, the context of your example verse in 1 Peter 3 has to do with "you" --those addressed in the opening verses, the believers. It is them with whom God is patient, not wanting any to perish.

John 1:2-2 says that Christ atonement was for all. If His atonement was for all, then it would be absurd to believe that He is unwilling for some to not come and receive it. Therefore, "God is not willing for you to perish, but for you to come to repentance" includes all.

1 John 2:2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

antwaniiz · Aug 10, 2020

Everything
that was
and is
and shall be to come
is all for the good of them who love God.

That is the will of God
before creation
during creation
and after creation.

All for the sole purpose of those who love God.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2020

John Mullally said:
John 1:2-2 says that Christ atonement was for all. If His atonement was for all, then it would be absurd to believe that He is unwilling for some to not come and receive it. Therefore, "God is not willing for you to perish, but for you to come to repentance" includes all.
1 John 2:2 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
2 Chronicles 30:7
7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Jeremiah 13:14
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
1 Corinthians 3:17
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

John Mullally · Aug 10, 2020

Der Alte said:
Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
2 Chronicles 30:7
7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Jeremiah 13:14
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
1 Corinthians 3:17
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

God's judgment is not His perfect Will, but it is always there if you reject Him. John 3:16 - 3:21.

God is not a mean God - there is cause for the "God gave them up". Read Romans 1:18. Maybe you need to have someone peer review your writings.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2020

John Mullally said:
God's judgment is not His perfect Will, but it is always there if you reject Him. John 3:16 - 3:21.
God is not a mean God - there is cause for the "God gave them up". Read Romans 1:18. Maybe you need to have someone peer review your writings.

Why? You haven't refuted me.
My post dispels the UR argument that God will unconditionally save all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike even after death.

John Mullally · Aug 10, 2020

Show me where I said that God will unconditionally save all mankind.

In my understanding of Calvanist theology (watching McArthur) the atonement is only for a select group and that if it is offered, God will move Heaven and Hell to get it to you. I don't believe that. I don't think the Bible supports that.

I believe that the Holy Spirit draws most of the unsaved - but they continually resist Him and their opportunity runs out. Acts 7:51 shows that you can resist Him. Many are called, but few are chosen.

chad kincham · Aug 10, 2020

John Mullally said:
Fatalists (and some theologies) make arguments that X happened because it was God's Will - or Y did not happen because it was not God's will. But that is a poor argument.

The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not God's Will. Notice that "be" indicates the present tense.

God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.

Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

Gods will won’t be done on earth as it is in heaven until Jesus’ second coming establishes His kingdom on the earth.
Satan is god of this world for now, because Adam was given total dominion over it, and transferred that dominion to Satan. 2 Corinthians 4:4 Luke 4:5-7
When Adams 6,000 year lease on the world runs out, satans sub lease also ends, Jesus returns with the title deed to the earth in His hand, and establishes Gods kingdom, and rules with a rod of iron.
Then Gods will WILL be done on earth.

John Mullally said:
Fatalists (and some theologies) make arguments that X happened because it was God's Will - or Y did not happen because it was not God's will. But that is a poor argument.

The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not God's Will. Notice that "be" indicates the present tense.

God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.

Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

Der Alte · Aug 10, 2020

John Mullally said:
Show me where I said that God will unconditionally save all mankind.
In my understanding of Calvanist theology (watching McArthur) the atonement is only for a select group and that if it is offered, God will move Heaven and Hell to get it to you. I don't believe that. I don't think the Bible supports that.
I believe that the Holy Spirit draws most of the unsaved - but they continually resist Him and their opportunity runs out. Acts 7:51 shows that you can resist Him. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Your post which I quoted implies UR.

"John 1:2-2 says that Christ atonement was for all. If His atonement was for all, then it would be absurd to believe that He is unwilling for some to not come and receive it. Therefore, "God is not willing for you to perish, but for you to come to repentance" includes all.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

rnmomof7 · Aug 10, 2020

John Mullally said:
Fatalists (and some theologies) make arguments that X happened because it was God's Will - or Y did not happen because it was not God's will. But that is a poor argument.

The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not God's Will. Notice that "be" indicates the present tense.

God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.

Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.

What was the will of God Jesus was talking about? What was he asking the apostles (the audience) to pray for?

My simple proof that God's Will is not always performed

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Legend

Similar threads