The Origin and Shortcomings of Conscience [moved]

Mr. M · Aug 9, 2020

When Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, the formation of a
conscience was necessary to have this knowledge.
Man's rapid descent was sure, as chronicled in Genesis 4 when Cain was willing
to ignore his conscience and slay his brother, then lie about it.
Paul introduces the role of conscience early in his letter to Rome:
Romans 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,
and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers
of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law,
these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also
bearing witness, and between themselves thoughts accusing or else excusing,
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ,
according to my gospel.

Paul spoke well when he said:
Romans 3:20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified
in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Father has made manifest HIs Love by giving His Son to reconcile man to Himself.
By giving His promised Holy Spirit, man receives "all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue.
2 Peter 1:3.

Hebrews 9:14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through
the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse
your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We can now live as Paul testifies:
Acts 24:16. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience
void of offence toward God, and men.
signed,
John 3:16

public hermit · Aug 9, 2020

What do you think it means that the conscience is corrupted? Does it still work as it should? If so, then it's not corrupted. If it doesn't, then how can one be held responsible for acting from a corrupted conscience?

Mr. M · Aug 9, 2020

public hermit said:
What do you think it means that the conscience is corrupted? Does it still work as it should? If so, then it's not corrupted. If it doesn't, then how can one be held responsible for acting from a corrupted conscience?

1 Timothy 4:
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,
giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.

How could they not be responsible for their own conscience?
Hebrews 2:
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began
to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard.

Soyeong · Aug 9, 2020

Our conscience is informed by the highest level of moral law that we believe. However, our conscience part of our fallen nature, so it is not perfect, which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:3 that even though he was not aware of anything against himself he was not justified. So our conscience helps us to live in accordance with the Torah, but it does not replace it, and therefore is not the ultimate determiner of our spiritual condition. Our conscience is capable of warning us when our spiritual condition is in danger, but it is not God's Torah, and needs to be informed by God's Torah in order to function correctly.

In Romans 14, there are weak Christians whose conscience is not informed in a mature way, where their conscience won't let them do what they really would be free to do, so again our conscience does not replace God's Torah. Someone's conscience can be so misinformed that their glory is in their shame (Philippians 3:19), where both their mind and their conscience are defiled (Titus 1:15). So the first way to destroy the work of conscience is to misinform it where you don't give it the true Torah of God and the second way is to silence it when it speaks. In 1 Timothy 4:2, Paul spoke about a wounded or seared conscience, and a good indicator of this is if someone sees nothing wrong with continuing to do what God has revealed in His Torah to be sin.

public hermit · Aug 9, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
1 Timothy 4:
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,
giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.

How could they not be responsible for their own conscience?
Hebrews 2:
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began
to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard.

Well, those are good passages. And, I appreciate your kindness in pointing them out. How could you know If I am familiar with the scriptures? So, I do appreciated the thought.

Unfortunately, those passages don't answer my questions? A "seared conscience" is just another way to say it is corrupted, perhaps. Plus, that particular passage only refers to some in the "latter times," not all. To say, "How could they not be responsible?" is not really an answer, either.

Given your substantial knowledge of the scriptures, how would you formulate a response to my questions? Or, given your theology, what would your response be? If you don't know, that's fine. I get it, that's why I'm asking.

Mr. M · Aug 9, 2020

public hermit said:
Well, those are good passages. And, I appreciate your kindness in pointing them out. How could you know If I am familiar with the scriptures? So, I do appreciated the thought.

Unfortunately, those passages don't answer my questions? A "seared conscience" is just another way to say it is corrupted, perhaps. Plus, that particular passage only refers to some in the "latter times," not all. To say, "How could they not be responsible?" is not really an answer, either.

Given your substantial knowledge of the scriptures, how would you formulate a response to my questions? Or, given your theology, what would your response be? If you don't know, that's fine. I get it, that's why I'm asking.

You asked how one can be responsible for acting from a corrupted conscience.
I answered, with scriptures, that one is responsible by neglecting the gift of God that enables you to maintain a pure conscience. It is called accountability. Do you think that you can justify yourself?
Or are you justified by faith in Christ? Is your desire to live a life pleasing to God?
Did you read the OP#1? If so, would you like to offer any comment or insight into what was written?

public hermit · Aug 9, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
You asked how one can be responsible for acting from a corrupted conscience.
I answered, with scriptures, that one is responsible by neglecting the gift of God that enables you to maintain a pure conscience. It is called accountability

No, I get it. We are accountable. I'm not disputing that.

Minister Monardo said:
Did you read the OP#1? If so, would you like to offer any comment or insight into what was written?

I did read it. That's what prompted my question, your opening post. Your title refers to a corrupted conscience. You shared several passages about the fall and how the law is written even on the hearts of Gentiles, so that their conscience may or may not excuse them, and so on. I read it.

It was in light of your OP that I asked the question in hopes of engaging in some deeper theological reflection on this topic. I thought that was the point of posting in the theology forum. Just to be clear, it was a genuine question, not an attack. If I didn't make that clear, my apologies.

So, what do you think about my questions? If the human conscience is corrupted, does it function as it should? It would be strange to argue it is corrupted, but functions as it should. But, there may be a hidden premise I haven't considered, so I am open to the possibility, given a convincing argument.

On the other hand, if it is corrupted and doesn't function as it should, then wherein lies the responsibility? Or, can I make the appropriate moral decisions with a corrupted conscience?

Minister Monardo said:
Do you think that you can justify yourself?
Or are you justified by faith in Christ? Is your desire to live a life pleasing to God?

Yeah, this is a theology section. That is what I am trying to engage in. You seem to want to make this about me, which is an odd move to make when discussing theology. Maybe you don't have an answer. There's no shame in it. I don't either and that is why I am asking.

Mr. M · Aug 9, 2020

public hermit said:
No, I get it. We are accountable. I'm not disputing that.

I did read it. That's what prompted my question, your opening post. Your title refers to a corrupted conscience. You shared several passages about the fall and how the law is written even on the hearts of Gentiles, so that their conscience may or may not excuse them, and so on. I read it.

It was in light of your OP that I asked the question in hopes of engaging in some deeper theological reflection on this topic. I thought that was the point of posting in the theology forum. Just to be clear, it was a genuine question, not an attack. If I didn't make that clear, my apologies.

So, what do you think about my questions? If the human conscience is corrupted, does it function as it should? It would be strange to argue it is corrupted, but functions as it should. But, there may be a hidden premise I haven't considered, so I am open to the possibility, given a convincing argument.

On the other hand, if it is corrupted and doesn't function as it should, then wherein lies the responsibility? Or, can I make the appropriate moral decisions with a corrupted conscience?

Yeah, this is a theology section. That is what I am trying to engage in. You seem to want to make this about me, which is an odd move to make when discussing theology. Maybe you don't have an answer. There's no shame in it. I don't either and that is why I am asking.

I appreciate your thorough approach. It seems to all come down to my using the word corruption in the title. I should say that conscience alone was insufficient to keep man from sinning. Hence, the need for a Savior and the gift of the Holy Spirit. There remains the issue of our will, and surrendering it to the Father's. The culprit remains the weakness of the flesh.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own
Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Should we say that conscience fails when we refuse to obey?
Submitted for your approval, a change of title.

public hermit · Aug 9, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
I appreciate your thorough approach. It seems to all come down to my using the word corruption in the title. I should say that conscience alone was insufficient to keep man from sinning. Hence, the need for a Savior and the gift of the Holy Spirit. There remains the issue of our will, and surrendering it to the Father's. The culprit remains the weakness of the flesh.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own
Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Should we say that conscience fails when we refuse to obey?
Submitted for your approval, a change of title.

I think you're right, the notion of a "corrupted" conscience was throwing me off. I also think you're right that conscience alone does not keep one from sinning.

I would not say that the conscience fails when we refuse to obey, necessarily. One can know exactly the right thing to do, and yet still not do it. So, I agree that it seems to be an issue of the will-weakness of the flesh.

I appreciate your patience with me. I should have made the intention behind my question more clear. Alas, communication is not always easy, haha. ^_^

bling · Aug 10, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
You asked how one can be responsible for acting from a corrupted conscience.
I answered, with scriptures, that one is responsible by neglecting the gift of God that enables you to maintain a pure conscience. It is called accountability. Do you think that you can justify yourself?
Or are you justified by faith in Christ? Is your desire to live a life pleasing to God?
Did you read the OP#1? If so, would you like to offer any comment or insight into what was written?

There might be a timing factor. We all might start off with a good conscience, but as we fight the desire to be righteous and allow ourselves to continuously yield to our fleshly desires our hearts can become hard. At some point there is nothing more that can be done to help us accept God’s charity, so we are part of the living lost and might not even have a conscience.

tampasteve · Aug 11, 2020

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This thread has been moved from Messianic Judaism to General Theology at the request of the member.

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The Origin and Shortcomings of Conscience [moved]

Mr. M

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public hermit

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Soyeong

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public hermit

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Mr. M

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public hermit

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