Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The timing of the opening of the Temple of God in heaven and the appearance of the Ark of the covenant (IMO) must have been at the destruction of Herod’s temple because we read this in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:1-5, 8
1Now the first covenanta had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2A tabernacle was prepared. In its first room were the lampstand, the table, and the consecrated bread.b This was called the Holy Place. 3Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place,c 4containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.d But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

8By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Greg Beale suggested the seventh trumpet was model on the Song of Moses (Exod 15:13-18). If this is the case, then the opening of the temple and appearance of the ark of the covenant would recall God’s glory revealed at Mount Sinai.

"God’s Temple in Heaven and the Ark of his Covenant – Revelation 11:19 – Reading Acts" God’s Temple in Heaven and the Ark of his Covenant – Revelation 11:19

The ark of the Sinai Covenant never resided in Herod's temple.

However, the ark of the New Covenant did.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

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mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The ark of the Sinai Covenant never resided in Herod's temple.

I never claimed it did....but I'm glad you brought that up. Once the curtain was torn at the Cross....it exposed the empty (earthly) Holy of Holies...demonstrating the Presence of God was not there.

BABerean2 said:
However, the ark of the New Covenant did.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

True....but, based on Hebrews 9:8, the way into the heavenly Holy of Holies was not made known until the earthly sanctuary was removed.

Hebrews 9:8
the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

John's vision...in my belief...brought to mind the model of the Song of Moses (Exod 15:13-18). If this is the case, then the opening of the heavenly temple and appearance of the ark of the covenant would recall God’s glory revealed at Mount Sinai.

Exodus 15:13 (song of Moses @ Sinai)
With loving devotion b You will lead
the people You have redeemed;
with Your strength You will guide them
to Your holy dwelling.

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2020

mkgal1 said:
True....but, based on Hebrews 9:8, the way into the heavenly Holy of Holies was not made known until the earthly sanctuary was removed.

Hebrews 9:8
the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Solomon's temple was the first temple, and was destroyed by the Babylonians.

Take a look at the context, which compares the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant system.
Verse 12 was fulfilled before 70 AD.

Heb 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary;
Heb 9:3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All,
Heb 9:4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services.
Heb 9:7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance;
Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
Heb 9:9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—
Heb 9:10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

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TribulationSigns · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Exactly. This took place at the Cross. The old testament congregation ended with the death of the Messiah the Prince. And then the New Testament congregation has begun. Remember the temple Christ told the Jews to destroy and that he could rebuild it in 3 days. It all took place at the Cross.

Nothing to do with 70AD.

mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Take a look at the context, which compares the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant system.
Verse 12 was fulfilled before 70 AD.

I agree.....but it wasn't ALL fulfilled prior to 70 AD.

The 7th trumpet (Rev 11:19)....the opening of Heaven's gates for the saints....wasn't until the heavenly Holy of Holies was revealed - and Hebrews 9:8 explains what needed to happen before that would be:

Hebrews 9:8
the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Exodus 15:17
You will bring them in and plant them on your own mountain— the place, O LORD, reserved for your own dwelling, the sanctuary, O Lord, that your hands have established.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world

has become the kingdom of our Lord

and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

God’s Temple in Heaven and the Ark of his Covenant – Revelation 11:19

TribulationSigns · Aug 8, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I never claimed it did....but I'm glad you brought that up. Once the curtain was torn at the Cross....it exposed the empty (earthly) Holy of Holies...demonstrating the Presence of God was not there.

Ahhh. So you now admitted that the "physical temple" was not Holy the moment curtain was rent? Then what makes you think it was still holy in 70AD in order to fulfill your private interpretation of physical destruction of (ahem) Herod's temple?

TribulationSigns · Aug 8, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I agree.....but it wasn't ALL fulfilled prior to 70 AD.

The 7th trumpet....the opening of Heaven's gates for the saints....wasn't until the heavenly Holy of Holies was revealed - and Hebrews 9:8 explains what needed to happen before that would be:

Hebrews 9:8
the way into the Most Holy Placee had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Again, you need to read the context instead of taking a verse out of it.

Hebrews 9:6-9 KJV
[6] Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7] But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8] The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

The Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. was no more the Holy Temple as the High Priest was God's minister. Selah!

And "clearly" the Holy Place of the New Covenant/Testament era as the dwelling place of God, was no longer in the physical Jewish Temple! It couldn't remotely be spoken of as a Holy Place in future Prophecy by Christ. The whole idea is absurd when exegeted correctly. The New Covenant Holy Temple is where the Holy place is after the cross, and is where God dwells now. And we (those in the New Covenant church) are living stones in that Holy Temple of prophecy. Any stones falling after the cross will be the New Testament congregation.

Ephesians 2:19-22

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

It's not speculation, it's not assumption, it is a fact that we are living stones in the Holy Temple of God in the New Covenant dispensation. It is a Fact that this Holy Temple is now the dwelling place of God. Not the place in the Old Covenant Jewish Temple. The Old is passed away. It is a fact that not only are true Christians living spiritual stones, but false Christians are stones in that temple made of wood, hay and stubble. Deal with the facts, not assumptions!

Timtofly · Aug 8, 2020

TribulationSigns said:
Well, God's warning is not for the people of National Israel to watch for the invading armies of foreign nations, but to His Saints to "watch" so that they keep their spiritual garments so that they do not walk in the shame of the nakedness of their sin (Revelation 3:17). For Christ comes as a thief in the night when you least expect it, and if the church isn't the proverbial watchmen that they are commanded to be, they will find themselves as the unwise virgins with lamps without oil. Please read the whole chapter of Matthew 25 about ten virgins before I explain:

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV
[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Though it tarries, it will not tarry! It's not an enigma, it's a proclamation that though it seems the end is here, there is yet an appointed time beyond that, as the Church is judged for unfaithfulness. A time when He seems to tarry and the Church slumbers until it is told to "go out" to meet the bridegroom. Parables are not just general inconsistent scattered truths, they are often very specific prophesies interwoven throughout scripture.

All the virgins are specifically wakened by a call at midnight, that the bridegroom was coming (not had come). In other words, BOTH the Elects and Professed Christians correctly believe that Christ is coming but only Elects can see the true signs of Christ's coming which is the judgment of the unfaithful church.

Anyway, that they should rise up and "go ye out" to meet Him. The "going out to meet Him," itself illustrates that they could not yet see him in the air, but they had to take action to "go out" to meet Him. Both the foolish and the wise hear the call. Is the call to "look up, your redemption draweth nigh?" No, it is to trim your lamps and go out to meet Him. For exmaple, Jesus is on His way, go out to the wedding to meet Him. Which brings us to the real "point" of the parable. The point being foolish could not take the journey in immediately "going out" to meet Him, for they had no oil to light their way. Which to any logical thinker would illustrate they couldn't see to go out to meet Him without the light provided for the lamps. And they proceeded to search them...to find sellers in the church and buy the oil. It's not rocket science!

By contrast, when Christ comes on the clouds of Glory, every eye shall see Him, and every tongue shall confess. There's no time for, "go to them that sell" and get oil that you can see how to get there! It's an entirely different scenario. It is in error to attempt to over-simplify a parable because we may not like the conclusions that it inevitably otherwise leads one to. In following it meticulously, we are following it Biblically. In other words, they all had to go out to meet him, and they needed lamps for the journey, and by the time the foolish went to the buyers and sellers, it was too late! Without question, there is obviously a time reference!

We cannot ignore these truths so obviously and carefully inspired by God, or chalk them up to over-complicating the parable. Any complication one derives from the following scripture meticulously and with care was meant to be there, and was placed there by God.

Matthew 24:43-44

"But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Clearly, in my mind, the Lord is declaring that the house of those who do not watch will be broken up by the thief. Think about it. What house is this? You need to ask yourself a question, "what house is this, and why are we to be watching for a thief?

Is Christ a thief? Yes! If the true Christians are Watching, they will "see" THE THIEF coming to break up their house, and will not suffer their house to be broken up. That's what Christ said! If He had wanted to say, just be prepared for my coming, He would have said that. But there is more to scripture than meets the common eye.

Revelation 16:14-15

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that Watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

CONTEXT! The battle of Armageddon is right here in God's congregation! Is Christ coming in judgment upon the unfaithful Church, aka Babylon the Great, as a thief, before He comes in the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church? Did that day come upon the five foolish virgins as a thief when they were busy running to and fro seeking to buy oil that will no longer save them? Obviously, since they were unprepared. Judas, one of the 12, was in God's words "a thief" who betrayed the body of Christ and was judged (cursed is anyone that hangeth on a tree). Is this just coincidence? When Christ said a thief comes in through the widow, was He just informing us how to prevent burglary? The judgment is written, "begin at my sanctuary!" Has a house (unfaithful church) been broken up and the Lord has not done it?

John 10:7-10

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Who are the thieves and robbers? Is that literal? If we trace back those thieves and robbers, they relate in scripture to the buyers and sellers in the temple. The same buyers and sellers that Christ "threw out" of the Temple. The same buyers and sellers in the court that God will give to tread down the holy city, and that ultimately God will throw them out of the Temple. Scripture cannot be interpreted in a vacuum.

These five foolish virgins represent that external part of the Church that is judged, left without oil, running to and fro seeking, but not finding it. Seeking to die in Christ, but unable to because it is too late. Read about it in Revelation 9 yourself!

The parable of the ten virgins isn't a parable about just being ready for Christ's return, it's a parable specifically about the corporate or "external Covenant" Church! Some within it with the light who can thus see their way to go out when they hear the call to "go out" to meet the bridegroom. And some without oil who are left behind remains in the church to go to their false prophets and christs to buy and sell their doctrines that will not save them! This is the nature of the battle of Armaggeddon where God has judged His unfaithful congregation so they will believe a lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 KJV
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is Armageddon. It is the Thief, Christ Himself, coming to judge His Church that His Elects can "see" and flee from her so they could keep their garment of salvation while the professed Christians who cannot see it goes to unfaithful church to buy and sell the doctrines of the false prophets and Christs where they will believe their lies. This is the judgment of God's house!

It is happening right now if you have spiritual eyes to see what's going on with God's congregations all over the world or are you too busy looking for literal fulfillment in the Middle East? Pray about it!

Revelation 16 is not a rescue mission either. It is the destruction of the foolish virgins who have worshipped Satan while the groom was away. They all will be killed at Armageddon. They will by resurrected to eternal damnation. Their mortal life ended and placed in the confines of Death. God claims their names were never in the Lamb's book of life. God never knew them at all. Such is the end of the foolish virgins who were not prepared the first time, Jesus came for His bride.

mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2020

Hebrews 9:8 said:
the way into the Most Holy Place e had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

BABerean2 said:
Solomon's temple was the first temple, and was destroyed by the Babylonians.

Oh....i see what you're suggesting now. You're saying (I think) the reference to "while the first was still standing" is referring to Solomon's temple as his was the first temple.

But what actually changed with the destruction of Solomon's temple? How does that timing line up to "the way into the Most Holy place being disclosed"? By the time Hebrews was written....there was another Temple in Jerusalem.

....and, actually, technically Solomon's was not the first Tabernacle. The Israelites had a portable Tabernacle in the wilderness. That was technically the first tabernacle.

Exodus 40:34
Then the cloud covered the Tabernacle, and the glory of the LORD filled the Tabernacle.

Hebrews 9:8 (NLT)
By these regulations the Holy Spirit revealed that the entrance to the Most Holy Place was not freely open as long as the Tabernacle and the system it represented were still in use.

Timtofly · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and dead of Christ, who is the seed promised to Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16.

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.

Is it the same event though? I recap more than the the video. The Lamb comes in the 6th seal. The Lamb is still here during 6 Trumpets. The Lamb is still here during the 7 Thunders. Then there is a week of Celebration after the harvest. The Lamb is still here about ready to rule physically with a rod of iron.

Where do you put Satan's 3.5 years and Christ's 1000 years after the FIRST Resurrection of Revelation, if you force them into the Trumpets and Thunders?

Scott Husted · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The timing of Revelation 20 is revealed by the Apostle Paul.

The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20.
In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing. The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others is also found in Revelation 11:15-18.
This proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. This is confirmed by Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

Revelation 20 is full of symbolic language.

We know the "first resurrection" in the chapter cannot be the first bodily resurrection in the book, because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected in chapter 11.
We also find the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and you cannot have a time of the judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

All of the above proves the Premill doctrine cannot be correct.

Christ will not conduct funeral services for 1,000 years after His Second Coming, in a world where immortals and mortals both live on the planet.
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46.
Instead Revelation 20 is a symbolic vision of the entire Church Age.

The 1,000 years is symbolic, just as the "key", and the "chain" are symbolic in the passage.
We know from Mark 5 that demonic spirits cannot be bound by a literal chain.

Some people try to interpret their entire Bible through their man-made interpretation of Revelation 20.
This is a serious mistake, and has produced numerous cults.

.

The whole book is in sign, or signified ... and is relational to where He is revealed both on a collective and an individual level; and it was for those when it was given, and those who have read it over the years, and for those who now read it.

We miss the boat when interpretation diverges from relationship.

Timtofly · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai
and his anointed.
3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.
6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him.

King David sings the same song in Psalm 2. Why do you think timing is not important? Since Moses, this song has been sung. Who and what for, if not so Christ can rule for the last Millennium like John claims in Revelation 20? Why did Moses, David, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all agree on the same event, and now the church, even a major voice, of the church, denies this event will happen?

mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Hebrews 9:8 (NLT)
By these regulations the Holy Spirit revealed that the entrance to the Most Holy Place was not freely open as long as the Tabernacle and the system it represented were still in use.

I would suggest that this (entrance to the Most Holy place being freely opened) was the transition of the saints from Sheol into the Presence of God. If the 7th seal hasn't been fulfilled....then they are STILL waiting to be in the presence of God in His Most HolyPlace:

Revelation 6:9-10
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony.
They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?”

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2020

Timtofly said:
Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai
and his anointed.
3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.
6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree:
Adonai said to me,
‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him.

King David sings the same song in Psalm 2. Why do you think timing is not important? Since Moses, this song has been sung. Who and what for, if not so Christ can rule for the last Millennium like John claims in Revelation 20? Why did Moses, David, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all agree on the same event, and now the church, even a major voice, of the church, denies this event will happen?

The potter does not correct the flawed pots with the rod of Iron, like a schoolmaster.
Instead, He destroys the flawed pots.

9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

This will occur on the day of His Second Coming, as foretold in multiple passages.

.

nolidad · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The timing of Revelation 20 is revealed by the Apostle Paul.

The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20.
In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing. The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others is also found in Revelation 11:15-18.
This proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. This is confirmed by Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

Revelation 20 is full of symbolic language.

We know the "first resurrection" in the chapter cannot be the first bodily resurrection in the book, because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected in chapter 11.
We also find the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and you cannot have a time of the judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

All of the above proves the Premill doctrine cannot be correct.

Christ will not conduct funeral services for 1,000 years after His Second Coming, in a world where immortals and mortals both live on the planet.
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46.
Instead Revelation 20 is a symbolic vision of the entire Church Age.

The 1,000 years is symbolic, just as the "key", and the "chain" are symbolic in the passage.
We know from Mark 5 that demonic spirits cannot be bound by a literal chain.

Some people try to interpret their entire Bible through their man-made interpretation of Revelation 20.
This is a serious mistake, and has produced numerous cults.

.

The resurrection found in REv. 20:12-15 is the second resurrection but the first resurrection happens 1,000 years earlier!

Revelation 20:5-6
King James Version
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

BABerean2 said:
This proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. This is confirmed by Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

You are in error here. There are actually three rsurrections!
1. The Rapture.
2. When Christ returns (what is called the first resurrection)
3. Then The resurrection of teh lost after the millenial kingdom.

When Jesus returns first to defeat the Antichrist at Petra, which is where the antichrist sends the worlds armies he marshalled at Armageddon or the plains of the Jezreel Valley, He is coming very visibly and seen around the world!

The teerm as a thief does not always mean quietly with no one noticing! YOu are combining verses wrongly

BABerean2 said:
Revelation 20 is full of symbolic language.

The whole letter is filled with symbolism. The issue is whether your opinions on the symbols are the literal fulfillment of the symbols!

BABerean2 said:
We know the "first resurrection" in the chapter cannot be the first bodily resurrection in the book, because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected in chapter 11.
We also find the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and you cannot have a time of the judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

Says who??? Show me a verse that demands a resurrection prior to judgment!
Also look at the verb tenses. It is 2nd aorist which is focused on the action without regard to a time frame. this shows that a time frame is either happened, is happened or is about to happen. given the rest of the book, it is an announcement of things to come!

Wrath is always about the judgments found in the book of revelation and not thje lake of fire unless it is modified to say eternal punishment!

BABerean2 said:
Christ will not conduct funeral services for 1,000 years after His Second Coming, in a world where immortals and mortals both live on the planet.
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46.
Instead Revelation 20 is a symbolic vision of the entire Church Age.

Yes there are! The survivors of teh campaign of Armegeddon! These are sheep and goat Jesus separates and allows the sheep to enter into the 1,000 year kingdom!

YOur 1,000 years is the church age is a man made interpretation! Exp;lain according to your guide book to understanding the book of Revelation what the other time frames mean in places like Rev. 12 and 13!

See the way people try to legitimatize allegorical opinions is throwing out that the Book of REvelation is filled with Symbols and then using that as a license to promote the opinions they have been taught!

But sound hermeneutics realizes that the Bible defines its own symbols and we do not need believer nor unbeliever to receive these special revelations to tell us what the symbols of REvelation mean!

BABerean2 said:
Some people try to interpret their entire Bible through their man-made interpretation of Revelation 20.
This is a serious mistake, and has produced numerous cults.

I agree, Amills, Pot mills, preterists etc. Thoise are all man made retranslations of the Word of God!

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2020

nolidad said:
Says who??? Show me a verse that demands a resurrection prior to judgment!

Says God, recorded by John in the passage below.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

If you can show us mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, we would all appreciate it.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you think Paul was confused in the passage below?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.

Timtofly · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The potter does not correct the flawed pots with the rod of Iron, like a schoolmaster.
Instead, He destroys the flawed pots.

9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

This will occur on the day of His Second Coming, as foretold in multiple passages.

Yes breaks the pots. Literally kills off all of Adam's descendants. This is before the last Millennium, not the 1st century, 1900 years ago. God did not reset the earth in the 1st century. God came to redeem all of Adam's descendants then. Yes, now is a spiritual kingdom, that fights against clay pots of fallen humanity. Soon will be the end. There will also be a 1000 year physical reign. Moses gave us the song, many have sung it. Soon heaven will sing it and it will happen. John witnessed it, and said, "yep, the last Millennium was exactly 1000 years". John witnessed the events just prior to, at the end of one millennium, and just after this 1000 years. He did not witness any thing in the 1000 years itself. Those events have been envisioned by OT prophets. John witnessed a tiny fraction of the next reality. Then the poor guy, had to return to this reality and watch folks on the Internet argue over what he wrote about.

nolidad · Aug 8, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Says God, recorded by John in the passage below.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

If you can show us mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, we would all appreciate it.

Well I asked what teh 3 1/2 days actually means according to you! After all 1,000 years is not 1,000 years so 3 1/2 days as this is in teh church age according to you must mean something else!

BABerean2 said:
If you can show us mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, we would all appreciate it.

so is it your contention that when Jesus physically returns to earth as recorded in Rev. 19, He is goign to come back to a planet devoid of human life?????

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Given this passage is still in the context of Matthewe 24 and teh great tribulation period, even Jesus said He shortens the days so flesh will survive!

A natural, normal, literal reading (recognizing that symbols are used in places) leaves no other understanding other than that When Jesus returns, He gathers the nations before Him on the planet, seperates the saved from teh lost, and ushers the saved into His kingdom which He is establishing-Where? Wait for it! Wait for it! On Earth!!!!

BABerean2 said:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you think Paul was confused in the passage below?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Paul is not confused, but you with your allegorical reinterpreting of these passages is confused.

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2020

nolidad said:
Well I asked what teh 3 1/2 days actually means according to you! After all 1,000 years is not 1,000 years so 3 1/2 days as this is in teh church age according to you must mean something else!

so is it your contention that when Jesus physically returns to earth as recorded in Rev. 19, He is goign to come back to a planet devoid of human life?????

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Given this passage is still in the context of Matthewe 24 and teh great tribulation period, even Jesus said He shortens the days so flesh will survive!

A natural, normal, literal reading (recognizing that symbols are used in places) leaves no other understanding other than that When Jesus returns, He gathers the nations before Him on the planet, seperates the saved from teh lost, and ushers the saved into His kingdom which He is establishing-Where? Wait for it! Wait for it! On Earth!!!!

Paul is not confused, but you with your allegorical reinterpreting of these passages is confused.

Why did you ignore the rest of Matthew 25:31-46?

Is there something at the end of the passage which leaves no mortals alive on the planet?

.

Brian Mcnamee · Aug 8, 2020

I amsw

shilohsfoal said:
So, this is another question that you don't know the answer to.

You sure don't make a good teacher. You act like you want to teach but your doctrine causes much confusion and even more questions that you do not know the answers to.

Perhaps you shouldn't try to teach.

I answered that question as you posed it to me and you have not replied. Your assuming that the great white throne judgment is the only judgment going on in these days. Seems clear that there is a 1000 year gap between the 2nd coming in judgment and the Ressurection of the just and the separating the sheep and goats as the survivors of the tribulation will be sifted. The saint live and reign with Jesus and the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1000 years is over and this is the great white throne judgment.

Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

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