Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

FreeGrace2 said:

The TT of Gen 1:2 says God DID. Ia 45:18 says God DIDN'T.

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The TT of Gen 1:2 is not talking about the completed state of earth, it is merely picking up the detailed descriptions of the completion process at a particular point of reference, namely, at this point, the earth is ready to be formed into the paradise God (it is now unformed) wants it to be so that it can then be inhabited by animal life and then humans (because it is now void, empty of inhabitants).

God did not just speak and pop the completed earth into existence. There are stages of formation in any type of creation, and this is just one stage of the process, and it is not even the first stage from a scientific perspective.

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

So much for the JPS Tanakh. And 13 of the 27 translated 'tohu' as above.

You have no case. The TT of Gen 1:2 contradicts 50% of the English translations in Isa 45:18.

And, once again, your confusion over preferring the TT of Gen 1:2 which leads directly to a very young earth, even though you believe ina very old earth.

Amazing.

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1) I erred in referencing tohu as pertaining to "became", it should have been "hyth", and thus,

2) my previous assertion still stands, for neither hyth or tohu is translated in any of the 27 texts on Biblehub as "became"!

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

I asked:
"Thank you for your concern about what Jesus taught, but I must ask why to continue to reject what He taught about those who are given the gift of eternal life on the basis of believing in Him for it; that they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Why do you continue to ignore my question?

And, inheriting eternal life is based on faithfulness and obedience, but the gift of eternal life is based on grace and faith in Jesus Christ alone for it. But you've shown no discernment in that area.




Yes, but not for salvation. For reward.


Yes, these verses do involve this. But NONE of them involve lifestyle for salvation.
What you seem unable to discern is that salvation is a free gift and eternal reward is earned.

You've conflated the 2 issues into 1 mess.

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“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

If someone is “in Christ” then removed “from Christ” do they still have eternal life?



JLB

I asked this:
"You still don't admit your contradiction with the TT of Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18. Why?"

TibiasDad said:

You're right, I don't admit it, because I don't have a contradiction between them.

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Thanks for one of the most blatant examples of denial I've every seen!

There is only a contradiction if I accept your way of approach, which I do not, so no problem!
Doug

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Ha. You know very well there is NO contradiction in my view.

Here's the contradiction with yours.

Gen 1:2 "traditional translation" God created the earth and the earth was tohu

Isa 45:18 - God did NOT create the earth tohu

Not seeing any contradiction between the TT of Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18 means you just don't want to.

But it's there, obviously.

Note, the meaning of 'tohu' isn't the issue here. The word is the SAME in both verses.

One verse says God created the earth tohu. Gen 1:2 TT The other verse says that God didn't create the earth tohu.

It is that simple.

You are contradicted.

What's worse, is that the vast majority of people who accept and defend the TT of gen 1:2 are young earth creationists, of which you aren't.

So, you not only accept a contradictory view of 2 Bible verses, you accept and defend a translation of Gen 1:1-2 that supports a very young earth EVEN THOUGH you believe in a very old earth.

But you don't "see" it, huh?

TibiasDad said:

The TT of Gen 1:2 is not talking about the completed state of earth

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This is totally irrelevant. Doesn't matter. The issue is that the TT says God created the earth TOHU. That's the issue. Regardless of what the word 'tohu' means, the TT says that God created the world tohu.

But, Isa 45:18 plainly says that God DID NOT create the earth tohu.

That's your problem, but you claim there is no contradiction. That is called DENIAL.

God did not just speak and pop the completed earth into existence. There are stages of formation in any type of creation, and this is just one stage of the process, and it is not even the first stage from a scientific perspective.
Doug

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OK, so you're telling me that for "any type of creation" there ARE "stages of formation/processes".

Nonsense. Don't even try to limit what Omnipotent God can do. Don't be silly.

When God spoke the universe into existence, you'd better believe that it all occurred immediately and completely.

To claim anything else is just more denial.

You really don't understand God, do you.

TibiasDad said:

1) I erred in referencing tohu as pertaining to "became", it should have been "hyth", and thus,

2) my previous assertion still stands, for neither hyth or tohu is translated in any of the 27 texts on Biblehub as "became"!

Doug

Click to expand...

Are you paying any attention? The single FOCUS is on the word 'tohu'. The word occurs in both Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18. Do you understand this?

And the TT of Gen 1:2 says that God created the earth tohu.

And Isa 45:18 says that God did NOT create the earth tohu.

If you don't see the huge contradiction between these 2 verses, you are blind.

JLB777 said:

If someone is “in Christ” then removed “from Christ” do they still have eternal life?
JLB

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Why do you persist in rejecting Scripture? Eph 1:13,14 doesn't permit you to make this unbiblical claim.

1. Anyone who has believed HAS BEEN sealed with the Holy Spirit.
2. Those sealed have been GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption.
3. They are guaranteed this inheritance because they are God's possession.

You cannot refute any of these 3 points, because they come directly from Eph 1:13,14.

But be my guest and try to with clearly stated Scripture.

Show me any verse that says that a believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.
Show me any verse that says salvation can be lost.

Believing that salvation can be lost is a losing proposition. Those who believe that are on the WRONG SIDE of the Bible.

FreeGrace2 said:

This is totally irrelevant. Doesn't matter. The issue is that the TT says God created the earth TOHU. That's the issue. Regardless of what the word 'tohu' means, the TT says that God created the world tohu.

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Gen 1:2 doesn't say anything about God creating, that is verse 1. In both of our views, verse two is simply a particular point of reference as to what the state of the earth was at that point! If the creation is completed, but became tohu after the fact as you claim, then God is responsible for it being that way, as you yourself have already stated awhile back In this discussion, for nothing can happen without God either directly causing the effect, or he has permitted to happen passively. Either way, God has taken causative action for the earth being as it is in Gen 1:2!

FreeGrace2 said:

When God spoke the universe into existence, you'd better believe that it all occurred immediately and completely.

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Then if it was all instantaneous, there is no literal 144 hour/6-24 hour days! Thank you for proving my point! The only difference is that in your view everything is simply there in an instance and my view says billions of years passed before we get to Gen 1:2. You can't have an "it all occurred immediately and completely" event, and have a literal 144 creation week!

So the completed earth is the point, it is relevant, and it does matter because you said it was all completed instantaneously!

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

Are you paying any attention? The single FOCUS is on the word 'tohu'. The word occurs in both Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18. Do you understand this?

And the TT of Gen 1:2 says that God created the earth tohu.

And Isa 45:18 says that God did NOT create the earth tohu.

If you don't see the huge contradiction between these 2 verses, you are blind.

Click to expand...

But the meaning of tohu is irrelevant to the argument of a "gap" between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. That gap depends on "hayah", or more precisely "hā·yə·ṯāh", being "became" and not "was". That is the only thing that matters in this discussion of Gen 1:2, as far as the argument you are making, is hā·yə·ṯāh. Without hā·yə·ṯāh meaning "became" we would not be having this conversation .

Doug

TibiasDad said:

Gen 1:2 doesn't say anything about God creating, that is verse 1.

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Immaterial. The 2 verses say that "God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was tohu". According to the TT, which you are defending and leads to a very young earth.

How many old earth creationists hold to the TT view?

In both of our views, verse two is simply a particular point of reference as to what the state of the earth was at that point!

Click to expand...

The conjunction of continuation (and) in the TT DOES link God's creating of the earth AS tohu. You can deny that all you want, but that's exactly what the first 2 verses say.

And, Isa 45:18 says that "God did NOT create the earth tohu".

So, you've got a contradiction.

If the creation is completed, but became tohu after the fact as you claim, then God is responsible for it being that way, as you yourself have already stated awhile back In this discussion, for nothing can happen without God either directly causing the effect

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Oh, NO, I NEVER said that. I said that nothing can happen without God's permission.

So you are either lying flat out, or you don't have a very good memory.

Then if it was all instantaneous, there is no literal 144 hour/6-24 hour days!

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Right. v.1 is clear that God created everything. And Psa 33:9 tells us: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Thank you for proving my point! The only difference is that in your view everything is simply there in an instance and my view says billions of years passed before we get to Gen 1:2.

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Yet, you cannot find ANY support for your view from Scripture.

You can't have an "it all occurred immediately and completely" event, and have a literal 144 creation week!

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I never said that either. After v.1, I view ALL the rest of ch 1 as a restoration. 'katartizo'.

So the completed earth is the point, it is relevant, and it does matter because you said it was all completed instantaneously!
Doug

Click to expand...

Original creation, yes. That's v.1 but the rest of the chapter isn't original creation, but a restoration of whatever caused the earth to BECOME tohu.

TibiasDad said:

But the meaning of tohu is irrelevant to the argument of a "gap" between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. That gap depends on "hayah", or more precisely "hā·yə·ṯāh", being "became" and not "was". That is the only thing that matters in this discussion of Gen 1:2, as far as the argument you are making, is hā·yə·ṯāh. Without hā·yə·ṯāh meaning "became" we would not be having this conversation .
Doug

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You couldn't be MORE WRONG!

I've already shown that the exact form of 'hayah' in v.2 is translated as "become/became" nearly 60% of the uses in the OT, while the translation "was" occurs only 6% of the time. So the favored meaning is "become/became".

And, Hebrew lexicons define "hayah" as "to exist, to become".

But, you STILL dodge the contradiction between the TT of Gen 1:1-2 and Isa 45:18.

Since you won't face the contradiction, just answer this question please.

Did God create the earth tohu or not? Straightforward and simple.

FreeGrace2 said:

Immaterial. The 2 verses say that "God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was tohu". According to the TT, which you are defending and leads to a very young earth.

How many old earth creationists hold to the TT view?

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By my reading list, many, in fact your the first one that I've personally ever interacted with or read that wants to hold to an old earth and yet maintain a literal view of the six days of creation (which again is impossible if God created everything as completed instantaneously). Don't get me wrong, I know that there are "gappers" out there, as I said, I remember talking about it in class when I was in school training for ministry, but none of the Evangelical Christian old earth proponents that I have read are "gappers".

Secondly, there is a logical break, not a indeterminate length of time gap, between the first two verses. 1:1 is a blanket propositional statement that declares all of the universal reality that we see and know is the direct result of God's creative hand! 1:2, sets the scene for the start of the detailed descriptions of God's creation of the Cosmos, earth, and the various partitions of earth's reality. (Again, not an instantaneous, Boom! it's all done.)

Doug

TibiasDad said:

By my reading list, many, in fact your the first one that I've personally ever interacted with or read that wants to hold to an old earth and yet maintain a literal view of the six days of creation (which again is impossible if God created everything as completed instantaneously).

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You are clearly not paying any attention.

I've NEVER said the "6 days" were "of creation". That was covered in v.1 when God spoke the universe into existence. Didn't you look up Pa 33:9?

Don't get me wrong, I know that there are "gappers" out there, as I said, I remember talking about it in class when I was in school training for ministry, but none of the Evangelical Christian old earth proponents that I have read are "gappers".

Click to expand...

My point is that you defend the TT of Gen 1:1-2 that DOES lead to a very young earth, even though you believe in a very old earth.

Secondly, there is a logical break, not a indeterminate length of time gap, between the first two verses.[/QUOTE]
Sure. The logical break is that the LXX begins v.2 with a conjunction of CONTRAST. And the clear majority of time hayah is translated as "became/become" in the 111 times it occurs in the OT. Only 6% of the time it was translated as "was".

But you just keep igoring the glaring contradiction with the TT of Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

I asked a question. Are you going to ignore it or answer it?
Here it is: Did God create the earth tohu or not? Straightforward and simple.

1:1 is a blanket propositional statement that declares all of the universal reality that we see and know is the direct result of God's creative hand! 1:2, sets the scene for the start of the detailed descriptions of God's creation of the Cosmos, earth, and the various partitions of earth's reality.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your opinion. But you STILL have that pesky contradiction with the TT of Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

(Again, not an instantaneous, Boom! it's all done.)
Doug

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Says you. This is what the Bible says about God's creating power.

Psa 33-
6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7He gathers the waters of the sea into jars ; he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

I believe there was a BIG BANG. And it was no theory.

FreeGrace2 said:

You couldn't be MORE WRONG!

I've already shown that the exact form of 'hayah' in v.2 is translated as "become/became" nearly 60% of the uses in the OT, while the translation "was" occurs only 6% of the time. So the favored meaning is "become/became".

And, Hebrew lexicons define "hayah" as "to exist, to become".

But, you STILL dodge the contradiction between the TT of Gen 1:1-2 and Isa 45:18.

Since you won't face the contradiction, just answer this question please.

Did God create the earth tohu or not? Straightforward and simple.

Click to expand...

And I have shown you that "hyth becomes ‘became’ only when it is accompanied (more often followed) at some point within the sentence by an additional linguistic component, like the Hebrew letter ‘l’ (‘lamed’). Without this additional (prepositional) ‘l’ component hyth could not have the sense of ‘became,’ it would remain ‘was.", which apparently isn't there in Gen 1:2.

Once again, none of the 27 versions we've been referencing from Biblehub translates "hayah" as "became", so there must be some linguistical, syntactical reasons that so many scholars over so long a time have consistently, if not always, translated as "was". The issue is not tohu, the issue is if it "was" tohu, or "became" tohu! Tohu could mean "pink" and it would still be the same issue. It "was" pink, or it "became" pink.

Doug

TibiasDad said:

By my reading list, many, in fact your the first one that I've personally ever interacted with or read that wants to hold to an old earth and yet maintain a literal view of the six days of creation (which again is impossible if God created everything as completed instantaneously).

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I would be your second then. And It's Verse 1 that God instantly created the heavens and the earth................PERFECTLY. Verse 2 is when the earth became tohu And darkness was over the face of the tehown(ABYSS/home of the demons.) FreeGrace has been teaching a very well hidden truth by satan. The Angelic conflict or Kingdom conflict.
Verse 3 and beyond are RESTORATION accounts not CREATION accounts.

We don't get any specifics, but a thorough reading of His word can give us a good picture of what probably went down:

God instantly created the heavens and the earth(angels were already created/Job 38.)Unknown amount of time passes.Satan rebelled. God froze(no light) the earth. Unknown amount of time passes. God restores the earth for mankind and creates mankind. Mankind proves to satan that God is just,righteous,loving,merciful ...........We are witnesses to satan and the fallen angels that God is JUST in His dealings with His creation................The Kingdom conflict.

TibiasDad said:

And I have shown you that "hyth becomes ‘became’ only when it is accompanied (more often followed) at some point within the sentence by an additional linguistic component, like the Hebrew letter ‘l’ (‘lamed’). Without this additional (prepositional) ‘l’ component hyth could not have the sense of ‘became,’ it would remain ‘was.", which apparently isn't there in Gen 1:2.

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As I've shown, the BASIC MEANING of hayah that it is "a verb of existence; to be or BECOME". Deal with it.

Once again, none of the 27 versions we've been referencing from Biblehub translates "hayah" as "became", so there must be some linguistical, syntactical reasons that so many scholars over so long a time have consistently, if not always, translated as "was".[/QUOTE]
You can get over your obsession withg hayah. The facts show what it means anyway, and how it's been used in in the 111 times in the OT.

The real issue here is the contradiction between the TT of Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

Regardless of how you want to play with 'tohu', it is found in both verses. The TT says "God created the earth tohu" while Isa 45:18 says "God didn't create the earth tohu".

And you aren't answering my question. Did God create the earth tohu or not?

The issue is not tohu, the issue is if it "was" tohu, or "became" tohu! Tohu could mean "pink" and it would still be the same issue. It "was" pink, or it "became" pink.
Doug

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OK, I'll rephrase for you.

Did God create the earth PINK or didn't He?

See? The issue REALLY IS the single word 'tohu'. Doesn't matter how you translate it. It is the SAME WORD in both verses, and the TT contradicts Isa 45:18.

Plain and simple.

You've got to deal with the FACT that you have 2 verses that contradict each other.

And here's a FACT that you just don't want to deal with either.

If (as in it's true) something DID happen after God created the earth and it became tohu, then there's NO CONTRADICTION between Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

But you seem to prefer contradiction in your views.

Gr8Grace said:

I would be your second then. And It's Verse 1 that God instantly created the heavens and the earth................PERFECTLY. Verse 2 is when the earth became tohu And darkness was over the face of the tehown(ABYSS/home of the demons.) FreeGrace has been teaching a very well hidden truth by satan. The Angelic conflict or Kingdom conflict.
Verse 3 and beyond are RESTORATION accounts not CREATION accounts.

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Amen!

Thanks for the info on tehown. I wasn't aware of that! Always looking for truth! Speaking of "home of the demons", it is speculated that when satan rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, he used planet earth as his HQ, which would explain how the earth got trashed.

I expect TD to have a hayday trying to make fun of this. However, as I have been pointing out from the beginning of this discussion, we DON'T KNOW what happened between v.1 and v.2. So ANY explanation is a theory, a speculation. Which I've been avoiding with TD in order to focus on what the FACTS are.

But it seems he'd rather go after theories than face his own contradictions.

We don't get any specifics, but a thorough reading of His word can give us a good picture of what probably went down:

God instantly created the heavens and the earth(angels were already created/Job 38.)Unknown amount of time passes.Satan rebelled. God froze(no light) the earth. Unknown amount of time passes. God restores the earth for mankind and creates mankind. Mankind proves to satan that God is just,righteous,loving,merciful ...........We are witnesses to satan and the fallen angels that God is JUST in His dealings with His creation................The Kingdom conflict.

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Regarding humanity being witnesses to satan, we have Scriptural evidence for that in 1 Pet 1:12 - It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

v.10 begins the context for v.12 - Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,

So, angels are very curious about the salvation of mankind.

FreeGrace2 said:

it is speculated that when satan rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, he used planet earth as his HQ, which would explain how the earth got trashed.

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I do tend to lean towards this theory.

FreeGrace2 said:

I expect TD to have a hayday trying to make fun of this. However, as I have been pointing out from the beginning of this discussion, we DON'T KNOW what happened between v.1 and v.2. So ANY explanation is a theory, a speculation. Which I've been avoiding with TD in order to focus on what the FACTS are.

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Yeah, been following your discussion. I hesitated to post in order not to distract from the obvious FACTUAL contradiction you have so rightly pointed out.

Gr8Grace said:

I would be your second then. And It's Verse 1 that God instantly created the heavens and the earth................PERFECTLY. Verse 2 is when the earth became tohu And darkness was over the face of the tehown(ABYSS/home of the demons.) FreeGrace has been teaching a very well hidden truth by satan. The Angelic conflict or Kingdom conflict.
Verse 3 and beyond are RESTORATION accounts not CREATION accounts.

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• And yet there is no use of the word restoration, recreate, remade.
• "Tehom", in the NASB, is translated as: deep (22), deeps (8), depths (4), ocean depths (1), springs (1). So never as "abyss"! Furthermore, Brown-Driver-Briggs lists "abyss" as referring to the grave, or Sheol, as in Psm 7 1:20, not the "home of the demons".
• The Holy Spirit is said to be "hovering" (racaph) over the Tehom. Brown-Driver-Briggs lists this as being: "Pi`el Imperfect3masculine singular יְרַחֵף עַל Deuteronomy 32:11 (poem) of vulture hovering over young; Participle מְרַחֶפֶת עַלמְּֿנֵי הַמָּ֑יִם ׳רוּחַ א Genesis 1:2 (P); hovering over face of waters, or perhaps (see Syriac) brooding (and fertilizing), so JerQuaest. in Gen. ed. Lag. 4 (reading 'marahaefeth), compare Di Gunk." Thus, God was lovingly brooding over the waters fertilizing it with the seeds of what was to come. This is clearly evidenced in 2 Peter 3:5 "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed (Greek, soon-is-tah'-o, to put together,) out of water and by water" , clearly referring to his understanding (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who was the one "hovering") of Gen 1:2.

We don't get any specifics, but a thorough reading of His word can give us a good picture of what probably went down:

God instantly created the heavens and the earth(angels were already created/Job 38.)Unknown amount of time passes.Satan rebelled. God froze(no light) the earth. Unknown amount of time passes. God restores the earth for mankind and creates mankind. Mankind proves to satan that God is just,righteous,loving,merciful ...........We are witnesses to satan and the fallen angels that God is JUST in His dealings with His creation................The Kingdom conflict.

Click to expand...

So then, to be sure I'm reading this right, there is nothing "specific(ally)" stated in scripture , but it "probably" means.... "God instantly created the heavens and the earth(angels were already created/Job 38.)Unknown amount of time passes.Satan rebelled. God froze(no light) the earth. Unknown amount of time passes. God restores the earth for mankind and creates mankind. Mankind proves to satan that God is just,righteous,loving,merciful ...........We are witnesses to satan and the fallen angels that God is JUST in His dealings with His creation................The Kingdom conflict."

The only thing that is verified as accurate by scripture, is the presence of the "angels" rejoicing over what God was doing! (Job 38:7) Everything else is pure imagination, or, as we would technically call it, eisegesis!

One also wonders, if God created everything instantaneously in completed form, then why did he not simply speak the "restoration" or re-creation into instantaneous being? You see, Gr8Grace, when you assert realities that are not actually delineated by scripture unambiguously, you leave you self open to many pertinent questions , such as who was responsible for, and how was the entirety of the earth's perfection destroyed, left waste, emptied, and why would God allow such a thing? Why would God "freeze" the earth, and if, as FreeGrace has asserted ad nauseam, the earth was not created tahu, or unpopulated then who inhabited the earth in this perfect world? All of scripture indicates that earth, and all the Cosmos, was created for man to exist and rule over, so the perfectly and instantaneously created earth, logically speaking, must have had an initial example of "mankind" inhabiting it.

Doug

TibiasDad said:

One also wonders, if God created everything instantaneously in completed form, then why did he not simply speak the "restoration" or re-creation into instantaneous being?

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Why don't you ask Him yourself? Humans don't answer for God. That would be silly.

All of scripture indicates that earth, and all the Cosmos, was created for man to exist and rule over

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This is just an opinion. How about a better statement: "all of Scripture was given to man". That's what occurred in the Garden.

But, Adam blew it and gave it over to satan.

so the perfectly and instantaneously created earth, logically speaking, must have had an initial example of "mankind" inhabiting it.

Doug

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You just don't want to admit that the earth became tohu.

If the earth WAS created tohu, then you have the contraction with Isa 45:18.

Why haven't you addressed your contradiction?

Or answered my question about whether God created the earth tohu, or He didn't create the earth tohu.

kinda hard to answer when the TT of Gen 1:1-2 says that God created the earth tohu, but Isa 45:18 says "God did not create the earth tohu".

You have a contradiction in your understanding of Scripture. And let's focus on the Hebrew word used, tohu, regardless of what it means. It's one word, and doesn't contain conflicting meanings in different passages. So don't go there.

Just fix your contradiction. My translation of Gen 1:2 has NO contradiction with isas 45:18.