Was the Last Supper a Seder?

I just caught it the same time as you and changed it before I saw your post (honestly, cross my heart). I try so hard to proof read and make corrections. That's why it takes me so long to reply.
Well, then you may believe some of the same man-made religious traditions of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin that Yeshua refers to as hypocrites and blind guides. Hark like others don't want to accept GOD'S Words that make it clear that unleavened bread and bitter herbs were to be eaten with the roasted lamb on the evening of Nisan 14. Also, the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin changed the timeline of "between the evenings" from sunset to sundown (for slaying the lambs) to from noon to sunset. That's why ralliann thinks the lambs were roasted on Niasn 15, but Exodus 12: 6 in no way implies any such thing. Hark misinterprets verses in Exodus 12 to suite man-made Jewish traditions. That's just one reason why Yehua refers to the Pharisees as hypocrites, blind guides. Also that their Father is the devil (John 8:44-45).
Of course not, but my allegiance is to the Word of GOD not Jewish traditions or their oral law. Karite Judaism sticks with the Torah NOT the Talmud (oral law).

Don't you get it yet that the reason GOD sent His own Son was because the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin had failed miserably. GOD sent His own Son because Israel had failed over and over again. At some point enuf is enuf. Likewise don't you see that Hark is blind and misinterprets portions of Exodus 12 to suite his own purposes. In like manner Rabbinic Judaism doesn't even want to consider Isaiah 53 as referring to Yeshua. They have their own interpretation being blinded by the Truth.

AbbaLove said:

​

What sacrilegious Bible translation is ralliann using where verse six reads "on the fifteenth day of the same month" ??? That sacrilege is sufficient enough to get ralliann banned from this MJ forum.

Verse 6 in all reputable translations reads as follows ...

Exodus 12:6 (CLV)
6 And it will become a charge of yours until the fourteenth day of this month. They will slay it, every assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel, between the evening hours. (between sunset to sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14 NOT Nisan 15).
Exodus 12:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (between sunset and sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14 NOT Nisan 15)
Exodus 12:6 (CJB)
6 “‘You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk. (between sunset and sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14 NOT Nisan 15)
Exodus 12:6 (ESV)
6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.[a] (between sunset and sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14 NOT Nisan 15))
a. Exodus 12:6 Hebrew between the two evenings (between sunset and sundown)​

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Here is a chronological order from 14 thru 21 of The feast during nisan.
Take note of Ecclesiastes 11 concerning a portion of 7 and 8 and the parallels between sukkot and feast of pesach.
8 yammin in total for each high Holy feast of the yr.
2 peter 1

}14 evening and morning
Pesach, bitter herbs, unleavened bread
° Always during a full moon to which does not always occur during a weekly shabbat.
Faith

}15 evening and morning
Begining of Unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Goodness (micah 6:8)

}16 evening and morning
2nd yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Knowledge

}17 evening and morning
3rd yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Self-control

}18 evening and morning
4th yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Perserverance

}19 evening and morning
5th yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
godliness (psalms 1:1-3 )

}20 evening and morning
6th yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Brotherly affection

}21 evening to morning
7th yom of unleavened bread
° Moon waning
Love


Blessings Always

No as we all make an occasional mistake (like my post of Exodus 53 that I corrected to Isaiah 53. Hopefully, ralliann will also correct her error.

And still the point is (Exodus 12) that GOD'S Word (Commandment) clearly reads that the Israelites were to eat unleavened bread and bitter herbs with their roasted lamb on the night of Nisan 14 as well as the following evenings (Exodus 12:8), including of course Nisan 15 and continuing until the evening of the 21st day. So that in NO WAY contradicts Leviticus 23:5-6 ...



I only use bold and larger font because Hark! started that trend as if he knows GOD'S Word when in fact he is blind to certain verses trusting more in the timeline established by the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin for the sake of their own convenience instead of at twilight (sunset to sundown). NOT from noon to sunset as many Messianics and Christians have been led to mistakenly believe.

Sunset on March 25th 2020 in Jerusalem was at 5:54pm with the new crescent moon sighted at 6:32pm by: Brian Hoeck, Karen Andrews, David McKnew, Gil Ashendorf, and Devorah Gordon signaling the beginning of the new year (Aviv/Nisan). That's a time span of 38 minutes. That's also when the first brightest planet can be seen with the still fading daylight in the sky. Thirty-eight minutes would be enough time for the Israelite men to kill, remove the hide and prepare the lamb for roasting.

On April 8th (Pesach) sunset was at 7:03pm. Nautical twilight was at 7:57 and Astronomical Twilight at 8:27pm (the beginning of night when no more daylight is reflected in the sky. So, let's figure that sundown to the Israelites was at 7:57pm. That gives the men from 7:03 to 7:57 (54 minutes) to kill their lambs, remove the hide and prepare the lamb for roasting. So either way (38 minutes or 54 minutes) a lamb could be killed, dehided and prepared for roasting. Actually the men could probably do it in 30 minutes as they were to make haste that evening. They may have only gotten a few hours of sleep and then "Outta here!"

AbbaLove said:

​

No as we all make an occasional mistake (like my post of Exodus 53 that I corrected to Isaiah 53. Hopefully, ralliann will also correct her error.

And still the point is (Exodus 12) that GOD'S Word (Commandment) clearly reads that the Israelites were to eat unleavened bread and bitter herbs with their roasted lamb on the night of Nisan 14 as well as the following evenings (Exodus 12:8), including of course Nisan 15 and continuing until the evening of the 21st day. So that in NO WAY contradicts Leviticus 23:5-6 ...

Leviticus 223:5-6 (CLV)
5 In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month between the evening hours, is the passover to Yahweh. 6 And on the fifteenth day of this month is the celebration of unleavened cakes to Yahweh. Seven days shall you eat unleavened cakes.​

Exodus 12:17-18 (CJB)
17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt. Therefore, you are to observe this day from generation to generation by a perpetual regulation. 18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day, you are to eat matzah.​

I only use bold and larger font because Hark! started that trend as if he knows GOD'S Word when in fact he is blind to certain verses trusting more in the timeline established by the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin for the sake of their own convenience instead of at twilight (sunset to sundown). NOT from noon to sunset as many Messianics and Christians have been led to mistakenly believe.

Sunset on March 25th 2020 in Jerusalem was at 5:54pm with the new crescent moon sighted at 6:32pm by: Brian Hoeck, Karen Andrews, David McKnew, Gil Ashendorf, and Devorah Gordon signaling the beginning of the new year (Aviv/Nisan). That's a time span of 38 minutes. That's also when the first brightest planet can be seen with the still fading daylight in the sky. Thirty-eight minutes would be enough time for the Israelite men to kill, remove the hide and prepare the lamb for roasting.

On April 8th (Pesach) sunset was at 7:03pm. Nautical twilight was at 7:57 and Astronomical Twilight at 8:27pm (the beginning of night when no more daylight is reflected in the sky. So, let's figure that sundown to the Israelites was at 7:57pm. That gives the men from 7:03 to 7:57 (54 minutes) to kill their lambs, remove the hide and prepare the lamb for roasting. So either way (38 minutes or 54 minutes) a lamb could be killed, dehided and prepared for roasting. Actually the men could probably do it in 30 minutes as they were to make haste that evening. They may have only gotten a few hours of sleep and then "Outta here!"

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Excellent perspective on the haste involved on the Pesach of liberty given after captivity for a number of yrs.
Reminds me of how lot was instructed not to look back.
I see the remains of the burnt offering of the lamb likened to such an instruction.
Take the provisions of necessity and leave the rest behind.

As for the rabbinical schools of thought that have been promoted by certain individuals that deny The Holy Lamb of Adonai.
I'm aware of such schools only over the internet.
Rashi is one such example that I've warned many about. A dangerous form of deceit that is easily mistaken to be an individual.
Rashi is a hearsay collection of works supposedly kept by his personal students.
Then there is the supposed historian hanni that mythically appears in the 20th century.

Point being is that the enemy cast only confusion as their personal idol with malicious intent and more.

To even ask if Yeshua performed a seder has no relevance to historical schools of thought amongst The Body of Yeshua.
Most seders point to eliyahu as the visitor for the evening.
Hence the extra cup.

So no,
According to past and current tradition.

I do not believe that the disciples were called to a seder, but to take part of The Lamb that is The Holy One of yisrayl.

Blessings Always

AbbaLove said:

​

I just caught it the same time as you and changed it before I saw your post (honestly, cross my heart). I try so hard to proof read and make corrections. That's why it takes me so long to reply.

​

Well, then you may believe some of the same man-made religious traditions of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin that Yeshua refers to as hypocrites and blind guides. Hark like others don't want to accept GOD'S Words that make it clear that unleavened bread and bitter herbs were to be eaten with the roasted lamb on the evening of Nisan 14. Also, the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin changed the timeline of "between the evenings" from sunset to sundown (for slaying the lambs) to from noon to sunset. That's why ralliann thinks the lambs were roasted on Niasn 15, but Exodus 12: 6 in no way implies any such thing. Hark misinterprets verses in Exodus 12 to suite man-made Jewish traditions. That's just one reason why Yehua refers to the Pharisees as hypocrites, blind guides. Also that their Father is the devil (John 8:44-45).

​

Of course not, but my allegiance is to the Word of GOD not Jewish traditions or their oral law. Karite Judaism sticks with the Torah NOT the Talmud (oral law).

Don't you get it yet that the reason GOD sent His own Son was because the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin had failed miserably. GOD sent His own Son because Israel had failed over and over again. At some point enuf is enuf. Likewise don't you see that Hark is blind and misinterprets portions of Exodus 12 to suite his own purposes. In like manner Rabbinic Judaism doesn't even want to consider Isaiah 53 as referring to Yeshua. They have their own interpretation being blinded by the Truth.

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AbbaLove, I can understand you are passionate about your beliefs, but calling people "blind" and tossing out accusations is not edifying to anyone.

And if you believe this is the reason Moshiach came: "Don't you get it yet that the reason GOD sent His own Son was because the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin had failed miserably. GOD sent His own Son because Israel had failed over and over again. At some point enuf is enuf" then we are really far apart in our beliefs and maybe we should just leave it at that.

chunkofcoal said:

AbbaLove, I can understand you are passionate about your beliefs, but calling people "blind" and tossing out accusations is not edifying to anyone.

And if you believe this is the reason Moshiach came: "Don't you get it yet that the reason GOD sent His own Son was because the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin had failed miserably. GOD sent His own Son because Israel had failed over and over again. At some point enuf is enuf" then we are really far apart in our beliefs and maybe we should just leave it at that.

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Abbalove has very keen eyes.

And recognizes arrogance used to confuse the children of the Lord quite well.
Do you?

Take for instance the traditional teaching of a supposed yom kippur.
If you find anything in Torah about such a thing.
Please advise the readers hear about such a thing.
To be clear,
I agree with abbalove assessment of blindness.

Hark! is correct (IMO) that just as in Exodus 12 and during the 2nd Temple period the lambs should have been slain, roasted and eaten on the evening of the 14th according to the TORAH (NOT on the evening of the 15th as ralliann believes), and in the family dwelling or a communal gathering place of men who have traveled some distance during the 2nd Temple observance of Pesach/Unleavened Bread. Because of the changed timeline (from noon to sunset on the 14th) during the 2nd Temple period the lambs were roasted and eaten on the evening of the 15th ... thus ralliann's point, but that doesn't make it right, unless you're of the persuasion of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin.

The go around between Hark!, ralliann and myself has to do with Exodus 12 and the correct interpretation of the timeline "between the evenings" (ben ha-erebim); whereas your bold type post is jumping ahead to the 2nd Temple period (two different timelines and traditions). Some of the confusion within Judaism (e.g. Karites vs Rabbinic) comes from comparing Exodus 12:18 with Leviticus 23:5-6 ...


The controversy within Judaism is whether counting the seven days (Feast Of Unleavened Bread) begins on the 14th- or on the 15th of Aviv/Nisan. I agree with pinacled's calendar (previous post) as the number 7 is the Lord's number; thus the fourteenth day and the twenty-first day. That means that unleavened bread is eaten on the 14th, but the Festival Of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th at evening.

For a perspective on Karite Judaism the following article helps to explain the difference between Karite Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism ... Passover | Samaritans, Karaites take Passover back to its ancient roots – J. ...


The man-made interpretation of "between the evenings" by the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin during the 2nd Temple period was from noon to sunset; whereas the Karites still hold to the Torah NOT the oral law (Talmud) of Rabbinic Judaism ... successors of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin.

So when Hark! says he holds only to the Torah that must mean that he holds to the timeline that the Karites still abide by and NOT that of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin (and Rabbinic Judaism) that changed the meaning of "between the evenings" (ben ha-erebim) to a timeline of approximately six hours from noon to sunset. My guess would be that they most likely made the change for their own convenience and that of the Temple money changers and the Jewish men traveling a far distance for Pesach (the Paschal Lamb) and the Feast/Festival Of Unleavened Bread that began on the evening of the Nisan 15. However, the actual counting of the seven days begins on the fourteenth not the fifteenth.

AbbaLove said:

​

Hark! is correct (IMO) that just as in Exodus 12 and during the 2nd Temple period the lambs should have been slain, roasted and eaten on the evening of the 14th according to the TORAH (NOT on the evening of the 15th) in the family dwelling or a communal gathering place of men who have traveled some distance during the 2nd Temple observance of Pesach/Unleavened Bread. Because of the changed timeline (from noon to sunset on the 14th) during the 2nd Temple period the lambs were roasted and eaten on the evening of the 15th ... thus ralliann's point, but that doesn't make it right, unless you're of a Rabbinic Judaism persuasion.

The go around between Hark!, ralliann and myself has to do with Exodus 12 and the correct interpretation of the timeline "between the evenings" (ben ha-erebim); whereas your bold type post is jumping ahead to the 2nd Temple period (two different timelines and traditions). Some of the confusion within Judaism (e.g. Karites vs Rabbinic comes from comparing Exodus 12:18 with Leviticus 23:5-6 ...

18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. (Exodus 12:18)

5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." (Leviticus 23:5-6)​

The controversy within Judaism is whether counting the seven days (Feast Of Unleavened Bread) begins on the 14th- or on the 15th of Aviv/Nisan. I agree with pinacled's calendar (previous post) as the number 7 is the Lord's number; thus the fourteenth day and the twenty-first day. That means that unleavened bread is eaten on the 14th, but the Festival Of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th at evening.

For a perspective on Karite Judaism the following article helps to explain the difference between Karite Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism ... Passover | Samaritans, Karaites take Passover back to its ancient roots – J. ...

“The High Priest opens with the sacrifice prayer and announces the ritual slaughter,” he said. “The sheep are brought to the altar and are slaughtered by experienced slaughterers. Members of each family check the kashrut of the slaughter for each other. Matzot with bitter herbs are distributed to all members of the community.”

The sheep are cooked in ovens, he said, and “in the middle of the night, at the time when the Angel of Destruction went out to slay the Egyptian firstborn, the sheep are removed from the ovens, taken off the skewers, transferred onto large platters, and accompanied by singing, which has not ceased since the start of the sacrifice, and the platters are brought home. There, the meat of the sacrifice will be eaten in haste with matzot and bitter herbs. Any remains left over are brought to be burned before dawn.”​

The man-made interpretation of "between the evenings" by the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin during the 2nd Temple period was from noon to sunset; whereas the Karites still hold to the Torah NOT the oral law (Talmud) of Rabbinic Judaism ... successors of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin.

So when Hark! says he holds only to the Torah that must mean that he holds to the timeline that the Karites still abide by and NOT that of the pharisaical leaders of the Sanhedrin (and Rabbinic Judaism) that changed the meaning of "between the evenings" (ben ha-erebim) to a timeline of approximately six hours from noon to sunset. My guess would be that they most likely made the change for their own convenience and that of Jewish men traveling a far distance for Pesach (the Paschal Lamb) and the Feast/Festival Of Unleavened Bread that began on the evening of the Nisan 15. However, the actual counting of the seven days begins on the fourteenth not the fifteenth.

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Ben'yamin[benjamin(between the evenings)

Is possibly related to facing west with humility.

pinacled said:

Ben'yamin[benjamin(between the evenings)

Is possibly related to facing west with humility.

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As a younger brother of yosef resting well with his elders garment and waiting patiently at well till told to Light The Fire.

HARK! said:

Non sequitur.

Your response doesn't address the content of my statement.

"We are not to leave our homes during the night. That means that the lamb must be inside before sundown."


Definition of evening
(Entry 1 of 2)

1a : the latter part and close of the day and early part of the night
b chiefly Southern US and Midland US : afternoon
c : the period from sunset or the evening meal to bedtime

Definition of EVENING

Evening begins at sundown.

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Unwarranted provocation during shabbat reveals much about an individuals desire.

HARK! said:

Shabbat Shalom,

Knowing this, why do you persist?

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Because I'm filled with love for my brethren

HARK! said:

Am I not your brother? What about the love of YHWH's word?


(CLV) Pr 26:17
Holding a cur fast by its ears: So is a passerby who trespasses upon a dispute not belonging to him.

Can you refute my statement; or are you creating contention?

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Tell me what 4 cups of water are served during a seder and I'll answer whether or not you are of the assembly.

Hint:
Cups of water are like a well

HARK! said:

Am I not your brother? What about the love of YHWH's word?


(CLV) Pr 26:17
Holding a cur fast by its ears: So is a passerby who trespasses upon a dispute not belonging to him.

Can you refute my statement; or are you creating contention?

Click to expand...

Perhaps if you were given sight of 4 cups given 12 disciples.
A division of three drinks would reveal a heart worthy of The Kingdom.

Blessings Always