Hell is a 404

Light of the East · Aug 7, 2020

You do raise a question which I have tossed about in my mind for a while. The question has two parts actually. If aionios means "age-long," then that would explain why the first five centuries were full of people teaching Universal Restoration. On the other hand, if it was clearly teaching Universal Restoration, how could there be people who taught Annihilation and Eternal Torment?

I remember reading somewhere that like many Greek words, aionios is fluid and can carry many meanings. I'm wondering also how cultural issues affected the view of those in the Roman Empire at that time. And how much like the Greek of today is the Greek of the first couple of centuries of the Church.

I think these are fascinating questions to delve deeper into.

Der Alte · Aug 7, 2020

Light of the East said:
...

Light of the East said:
You do raise a question which I have tossed about in my mind for a while. The question has two parts actually. If aionios means "age-long," then that would explain why the first five centuries were full of people teaching Universal Restoration. On the other hand, if it was clearly teaching Universal Restoration, how could there be people who taught Annihilation and Eternal Torment?
I remember reading somewhere that like many Greek words, aionios is fluid and can carry many meanings. I'm wondering also how cultural issues affected the view of those in the Roman Empire at that time. And how much like the Greek of today is the Greek of the first couple of centuries of the Church.
I think these are fascinating questions to delve deeper into.

While you are delving please consider this.
Posted previously in this thread.
…..Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”

= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.

Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
Thus this shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Jesus used the word “aiōnios” 30 times, He never used “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” to refer to something ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be eternal e.g. eternal/everlasting life 25 times, fire 2 times, punishment, judgment and habitations 1 time each..
In the following 10 verses, Jesus, intentionally or not, defined/described “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” as “eternal” and “αἰών/aiōn” as “eternity.”
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aiōnios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aiōnios life” with “death.” If “live aiōnios” is living only a finite period, that is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiōnios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2-3]John 10:28-29
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aiōn] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
ου μη/ou mé, vs. 28, signifies “in nowise,””by no means,””never,” [fn below]. In these two verses Jesus defines both “aiōnios” and “aiōn” as “eternal” by parelleling them with with these three phrases, “[not] snatch them out of my hand,” “never perish,” and “no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” If “aion/aiōnios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “never perish,[not] snatch them out of my hand/the father’s hand.”
[4-5]John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these two verses Jesus paralleles “aiōnion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aiōnion life” here means eternal/everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus defines “aiōnios” as “eternal” by juxtaposing it with the phrases “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aiōnios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aiōnios life” with “shall not see life.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition here aiōnios means eternal.
[8]EOB John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never [ ου μη/ou mé] be thirsty again. Not only this, the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament. (Jn 4:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes aiōnios with “shall never ου μη/ou mé thirst.”
ου μη/ou mé means “in nowise, by no means,” [fn below] Aiōnios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aiōnios here means eternal.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aiōnios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aiōnios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) [αμην αμην/amen amen], I tell you; whoever keeps my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death.”[1]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna][fn] see death."
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament.
[fn]● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

1213 · Aug 7, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
…1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God…

There is no reason why God could not have created anything else, after Genesis.

Lazarus Short said:
2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence…

…4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

So, if you believe God made evil, why then not hell? However, I don’t think hell, or Gehenna, is evil. I think Hell is good and nothing evil comes from God. But, God forms evil, by allowing people to be without Him and His protection. Evil is really same as emptiness, or darkness, it is nothing, and therefore it doesn’t need to be created, it is formed, when good (God, light) is not present.

Lazarus Short said:
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell….

In Bible, hell can mean two things, Sheol, or Gehenna. Gehenna is the fire lake that burns forever, also called second death.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10

Lazarus Short said:
…7. God warns of death, but not of Hell….

Hell, or Gehenna is the second death. And I have understood this “life” is the first death where people were expelled, when they rejected God.

Lazarus Short said:
…13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.

The good news is that sins are forgiven and people can have a new beginning and become righteous. But it does not mean that there is no end (hell) for unrighteous and evil people.

Der Alte · Aug 7, 2020

1213 said:
There is no reason why God could not have created anything else, after Genesis.
So, if you believe God made evil, why then not hell? However, I don’t think hell, or Gehenna, is evil. I think Hell is good and nothing evil comes from God. But, God forms evil, by allowing people to be without Him and His protection. Evil is really same as emptiness, or darkness, it is nothing, and therefore it doesn’t need to be created, it is formed, when good (God, light) is not present.
In Bible, hell can mean two things, Sheol, or Gehenna. Gehenna is the fire lake that burns forever, also called second death.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
Hell, or Gehenna is the second death. And I have understood this “life” is the first death where people were expelled, when they rejected God.
The good news is that sins are forgiven and people can have a new beginning and become righteous. But it does not mean that there is no end (hell) for unrighteous and evil people.

My take on death, hell and the lake of fire.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Saint Steven · Aug 7, 2020

dqhall said:
God knows not all are compliant with God’s directives.

Not everyone and not right now. But...

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Saint Steven · Aug 7, 2020

1213 said:
There is no reason why God could not have created anything else, after Genesis.

The seventh day marked the completion of the six days of creation.

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Der Alte · Aug 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Not everyone and not right now. But...
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Contrary to what UR-its say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day,(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[(fn) "That day" =the day of judgment.]

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars," [Rev 21:8, etc.] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 8 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
8. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool as the enemies of Joshua did and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.

Saint Steven · Aug 7, 2020

1213 said:
The good news is that sins are forgiven and people can have a new beginning and become righteous. But it does not mean that there is no end (hell) for unrighteous and evil people.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Der Alte · Aug 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all..

Saint Steven said:
..

The Greek verb translated "may have mercy" is a subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The stated action may or may not happen. It ain't a done deal for all mankind.

Shrewd Manager · Aug 8, 2020

Der Alte said:
The Greek verb translated "may have mercy" is a subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The stated action may or may not happen. It ain't a done deal for all mankind.

I love your bleak and hard-edged view der Alte. Propositions to the effect:

God could have mercy, but He'll mostly burn ppl forever and a day.
Every knee will bow, but most will be forced into it and be found hanging dead from 5 trees in the next scene.
He'll wake up the dead just so He can bbq them forever.

Is this a fair summary? Did I miss anything?

Saint Steven · Aug 8, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
I love your bleak and hard-edged view der Alte. Propositions to the effect:

God could have mercy, but He'll mostly burn ppl forever and a day.

Every knee will bow, but most will be forced into it and be found hanging dead from 5 trees in the next scene.

He'll wake up the dead just so He can bbq them forever.

Is this a fair summary? Did I miss anything?

All this from the God who expects us to love our enemies. (vs 43) Described as godly behavior. (vs 48)

Some make God out to be worse than a pagan, or a tax collector. (vs 46-47)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Der Alte · Aug 8, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
I love your bleak and hard-edged view der Alte. Propositions to the effect:

God could have mercy, but He'll mostly burn ppl forever and a day.

Every knee will bow, but most will be forced into it and be found hanging dead from 5 trees in the next scene.

He'll wake up the dead just so He can bbq them forever.

Is this a fair summary? Did I miss anything?

If you don't like the truth, don't read my posts. Here is something your UR Gurus will not tell you. Greek is an inflected language tense, voice, mood, gender, number are expressed by the word endings.
For example in Rom 11:32 ελεηση translated "might have mercy" is an aorist, active, subjunctive.

"The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."

Look it up in any Greek grammar.
If Paul had wanted to say "shall have mercy" he would have used ελεησω the future, passive indicative as he did in Rom 9:15.
Contrary to UR doctrine one does not just pick any old definition out of Strong's. The correct definition is determined by the tense, voice, mood etc.

1213 · Aug 9, 2020

Der Alte said:
….Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable…

But it is said those who are thrown in the Gehenna (“hell”), are destroyed. If something is destroyed, I don’t see any reason to believe it lives.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Der Alte said:
…they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. …

The torment is the fire, it torments =burns for ever, but it does not necessary mean those burn feel or are alive.

Der Alte said:
….My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended….

If they are not places, how can they have people in them?

…Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. …
Revelation 20:12-15

1213 · Aug 9, 2020

Saint Steven said:
The seventh day marked the completion of the six days of creation.
...

Yes, but I believe all didn’t end to that seventh day and we live the day after the seventh day and it is possible God has created things after that. But, it is also possible that hell (the eternal fire lake) was created before the seventh day, I think it is not bad.

1213 · Aug 9, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

But not all people accept it and not all want it.

Shrewd Manager · Aug 9, 2020

Der Alte said:
If you don't like the truth, don't read my posts.

Lol, that's not the God I know and love. So ok I'll stop reading your posts.

Saint Steven · Aug 9, 2020

1213 said:
But not all people accept it and not all want it.

"It is useless to try to gather all the world into the Kingdom in this dispensation, for that is not God's purpose in this age. No man comes except the Father draw him. Those who insist on bringing all the world in now are trying to do in this age the work that God Himself has said should be done in the dispensation of the fullness of times. In the dispensation of the fullness of times, His immutable Word has declared, He will gather all things into Christ, both which are in heaven and in earth, even in Him (Eph. 1:10). 'ALL that the Father has given Me SHALL COME to Me,' said Jesus, and you may be sure that this is the truth. At the end of this age there will not be one soul missing of all that number of the 'firstfruits' who were predestined to come to Him, and, when the age to come has run its course, there will not be one missing of all who are appointed to come to Him in that blessed age. So also may we declare for that wonderful AGE OF THE AGES, the dispensation of the fullness of the times, for God's Word has faithfully declared that in that glorious age of all ages every missing sheep will be accounted for as God gathers together in one the all things into Christ " -end quote.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Saint Steven · Aug 9, 2020

Light of the East said:
I remember reading somewhere that like many Greek words, aionios is fluid and can carry many meanings. I'm wondering also how cultural issues affected the view of those in the Roman Empire at that time. And how much like the Greek of today is the Greek of the first couple of centuries of the Church.

I think these are fascinating questions to delve deeper into.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the Eastern church were native Greek speaking peoples. The Western church (which gave us the Bible) were Latin speaking. Therefore, Universalism prevailed in the Eastern church where the Greek was better understood, and Damnation prevailed where it was not. This also affected the translation of the Bible where we see a clear Damnationist bias imprinted by the Western church. Universalists are left with the scriptures that got past the editors. For which the Damnationists quickly counter with the overwhelming number of biased scriptures. (Bible vs. Bible)

JesseBassett · Aug 9, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Lol, that's not the God I know and love. So ok I'll stop reading your posts.

I agree with you Shrewd Manager!

Der Alte · Aug 9, 2020

1213 said:
But it is said those who are thrown in the Gehenna (“hell”), are destroyed. If something is destroyed, I don’t see any reason to believe it lives.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

Matt 10:28 does not say will be destroyed. It says "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." What God created He certainly can destroy. Also the word translated "destroy" does not necessarily mean to annihilate out of existence. It is also used for the prodigal son who returned, the lost sheep that was found, etc.

The torment is the fire, it torments =burns for ever, but it does not necessary mean those burn feel or are alive.
If they are not places, how can they have people in them?

…Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. …
Revelation 20:12-15

I'm kinda funny this way I find it helps a great deal to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. I think I very clearly explained my view in the post you are referring to. Had you read it you would not need to ask these questions.
Quick answer there are two deaths and two hells in Rev.. First "hell" the grave/the place of punishment. "death" the point in time end of life. Two, "death" riding a horse given power to kill 1/4 of the earth and "hell," following death on the horse. #1 gives up the dead in them #2 are thrown into the LOF. They have not died a first death thus cannot logically die a second death.

Hell is a 404

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir

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Disciple of Jesus

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You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Disciple of Jesus

Disciple of Jesus

Disciple of Jesus

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Follower of the way, the truth, and the life....

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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