The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

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eclipsenow

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Your disagreeable attempts to make Luke 13:32 an 33 into meaning the same 3 days, can be seen as wrong by any reader of plain Words, because the 2 third Days are diametrically opposed.
How? Just asserting something is so doesn't make it so.
How are they opposed?
I'm so over discussing these verses with you.
Your reading of these verses is just so random!
Unsupportable.
Unsupported.
Out of context.
Random.
Junk.

Luke 13
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you. 32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

It's a simple counting game. It says "I'll take my time thank you very much - until I die in Jerusalem."
Your inserting some kind of end-times table in here is as random as the paper's astrology charts. It's got nothing to do with anything the passage is discussing.
The two subjects? Herod - and Jesus ministry then death. That's it. No end times tables! ZERO! Your inserting end-times-tables into this verse is as laughable as anyone grabbing any other random story.

EG: My attempt at an end times chart!
Resurrection happens on the Last Day, right? So surely stories involving Resurrection MUST be about the end times, right?

John 11:17 says "On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days."

Holy dooley - Lazarus was raised on the 4th day! That means if we do the Peter equation of day = 1000 years that means Jesus will return in the year 4000.

Now you are OBVIOUSLY wrong with your reading of scripture because here's my proof text that Jesus returns in the year 4000AD! OK? I mean prove me wrong! It says it - in the context of Lazarus being raised from the dead - and then Jesus says HE is the Resurrection and the Life? Whatever else could it be discussing? :oldthumbsup: :doh::oldthumbsup: :doh:

4000 AD




What is the context of Bible prophecy? Future events described to us in advance of their fulfillment; right?
Incorrect! They are sometimes about the future, but often seems to preach to THAT generation. EG: Hosea 6 was telling THAT generation to repent and then the Lord would forgive quickly! Jonah had to prophecy to Nineveh. Etc.

If they have been fulfilled, then the historical record should show it.
But what you are doing is worse.
You're reading a description as a prescription, a story as a prophecy, and being SMUG about it! Being a MARTYR when someone dares to tug on the reigns of your high horse and say "Wait a minute buddy, but nothing you're saying makes any sense." (Then the indignant sniffing starts!)

With my posts; I have presented the Prophetic Word, as it is Written in our Bibles.

Absolute rubbish - you've presented a description of Jesus rebuking Herod as some kind of warped and ridiculous end-times-table that a high school English student could say was bad reading!

The context of forthcoming dramatic events, is the Day of the Lord's Judgment and punishment. That you may not like the idea of a time of trials and testing ahead, is no reason to question, or reject what God has told us He plans to do.
Patronising nonsense - you don't seem to understand what Amils believe this time will be like? War, pandemic, death and destruction, persecution - it's just absolutely patronising nonsense that Amils don't accept that life can and will involve these things. It's also terribly patronising to the generation that John actually addressed his letters to. Imagine the theologians I read are correct on all this, going back to Augustine and the Reformers. Imagine you meet up with martyred first century saints in heaven - and they've been watching you put together theories that RIP their letter out of context and basically tell them "Hey, you guys think being fed to lions was bad - wait till you see what happens at the end of the age!" How many times can you be killed? How many times can you suffer watching your children killed? Why is your 'Last Days' tribulation any worse than the first century tribulation John said he SHARED in with them - the people he was writing to?

On a personal note - don't try and diagnose me from a distance. You don't know what trials or health concerns my family have been through, what our financial situation is, and what we've already survived. In my family one of us was an abandoned missionary kid whose parents couldn't understand her in her teenage years and basically emotionally neglected and abused her, one of us had childhood cancer and is fighting depression as a result of all that, and some of us have other health and anxiety issues. And you think you can diagnose why I disagree with your absolute rubbish end times table? Talk about patronising rubbish - talk about a classic Bulverism!

You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong. The modern method is to assume without discussion that he is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly. In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it "Bulverism". Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father—who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than a third—"Oh you say that because you are a man." "At that moment", E. Bulver assures us, "there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and explain his error, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall." That is how Bulver became one of the makers of the Twentieth Century.
Bulverism - Wikipedia
 
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keras

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I'm so over discussing these verses with you.
Your reading of these verses is just so random!
I am disappointed that no one else has any comment to make on the two verses of Luke 13:32-33.
However I'm sure that your lengthy and offensive posts and my concise and reasoned ones that prove there is a real difference in the time periods and in the outcome's and is seen by readers here as the true interpretation.

Bulverism? Your technique is to just flatly reject anything that doesn't suit your beliefs.
 
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keras

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Hosea 6:1-3 Come: Let us return to the Lord, He has punished us 1, but He will restore us. After two days He will revive us 2, on the third day He will raise us up and we will live in His presence 3. Let us strive to know the Lord, whose coming is as sure as the sunrise. His coming will refresh us like the spring rains.

Hosea 6:4-11 How shall the Lord deal with His people? Their loyalty is like the morning mist, that is why His prophets castigate them and His Word indicts them. Their God requires loyalty, not sacrifices, belief and trust in Him rather than offerings. But they have transgressed the Covenant and brought defilement upon themselves. The House of Israel has prostituted itself and for Judah too, a harvest of reckoning will come 4.

Hosea 7:1-2 & 13-16 When the Lord decides to restore the fortunes of His people6, their guilt will stand revealed. He constantly watches 5, they are unaware that He has kept account of their misdeeds and faithlessness. Disaster will strike 4 them for their rebellion, even though He desires to deliver them, but their false beliefs and insincere worship indicts them. Their leaders will be killed for speaking falsely, foreigners will deride them for their foolishness. Ref: REB Abridged


1/ Punishment by exile from the holy Land for 2730 years. Ezekiel 4:4-6, Lev. 26:18-28 - 390 X 7 = 2730. From about 712 BC to about 2020 AD
The House of Judah has returned, but the House of Israel remains in exile.

2/ 2 days = 2000 years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8

3/ The 1000 year Millennial reign of Jesus. Revelation 20:6, Luke 13:32

4/ The terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath. Ezekiel 7:1-9, Hosea 8:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2:1-2, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

5/ God is watching us. Job 34:21-23, Psalm 11:4, Psalm 33:13-15, Jeremiah 16:17

6/ The time of Restoration: The period between the 2nd Exodus of all of the Christian Israelites and the Return of Jesus. Described in Ezekiel 34:11-16, Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, Isaiah 61, Joel 2:22-32 and in Romans 9:24-26.


The great gathering and judging of the Israelite peoples:
Now; every Christian, the descendants of Abraham by faith. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16
Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong hand and outstretched arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from the lands where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into the place of judgement and there I shall confront all of you, even as I did to your forefathers in the wilderness.
I shall make you pass under the rod of judgement, counting you as you pass. I shall purge out all those who revolt and rebel against Me, they will come out of the nations where they now live, but they will not set foot on the holy Land of Israel. This is the Word of the Lord God.
Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Acts 3:19
 
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eclipsenow

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I am disappointed that no one else has any comment to make on the two verses of Luke 13:32-33.

I'm sure you meant to say the undefeatable, undeniable 4000 AD Resurrection Day hypothesis!
For, if anything denotes the Last Day, it's Resurrection.
Stories involving Resurrection MUST be about the end times, right?
John 11:17 says "On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days."
Lazarus was raised on the 4th day!
Peter equation multiply by 1000 - Jesus will return in the year 4000AD.
Jesus says HE is the Resurrection and the Life.
It's just so obvious - but then - a true prophet is never believed in his own generation.
(Places back of hand to forehead - in dismay position.) Such is my burden - that the ungodly and carnal mind just will not accept my prophecy! Anyone who doesn't believe in me is obviously a Last Days scoffer - no take-backs! So there!
Crazy.png
 
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Swan7

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What is the context of Bible prophecy?
The context is how God put it together. Not what man pieces together.

Future events described to us in advance of their fulfillment; right?
If they have been fulfilled, then the historical record should show it.
Yes and no.
Again, yes and no.

With my posts; I have presented the Prophetic Word, as it is Written in our Bibles.
Actually you haven’t. You have pieces of scripture bundled together and say “it is written”. Even Satan did that with Jesus in the wilderness...

The context of forthcoming dramatic events, is the Day of the Lord's Judgment and punishment.
It’s actually about Jesus Christ’s return giving Father God all the glory when He does so. Judgement, absolutely to both the sheep and the goats.

That you may not like the idea of a time of trials and testing ahead, is no reason to question, or reject what God has told us He plans to do.
Don’t assume what I do and don’t like. I also have not objected to God’s Truth - just yours.

For an attitude like this makes me trust you even less. God is Truth, so let every man be a liar and God be True.
There is a reason for this and I had learned it the hard way due to my own stubbornness of heart. I think you need to rethink your responses and the way you handle your posts. :yellowheart:
 
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nolidad

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NOWHERE does the Bible say the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.
Its a fanciful dream of the deceived.

Well as I have oft told you, we do not spend forever in heaven with Jesus once we are raptured. So your comment is just a strawman.

We are caught up into heaven, stand before the bema judgment to either be rewarded or suffer loss for our works done in His name, and then in Rev. 19 we wed the Lord and return with Him to planet earth!
 
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keras

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We are caught up into heaven, stand before the bema judgment to either be rewarded or suffer loss for our works done in His name, and then in Rev. 19 we wed the Lord and return with Him to planet earth!
More fanciful dreams of the deceived.
Your failure to scripturally support a 'rapture to heaven', because it simply isn't there; proves your mistaken beliefs.
Don’t assume what I do and don’t like. I also have not objected to God’s Truth - just yours.
But Swan7, I present what the Bible prophets wrote.
I use other verses and common sense to help explain what the Prophets are trying to tell us.
Will the Lord never send His fiery wrath, as is prophesied? Shouldn't someone give warning?
It's just so obvious - but then - a true prophet is never believed in his own generation.
Once more: I am not a prophet. Just a messenger, as my name means.
However; this seems to apply:
Matthew 13:57-58 And they were offended in Him. Jesus said: A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country and among his friends and family. So He didn't do miracles there because of their unbelief.
 
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nolidad

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More fanciful dreams of the deceived.
Your failure to scripturally support a 'rapture to heaven', because it simply isn't there; proves your mistaken beliefs.

It is there as I have shown you from SCripture! YOu just do not wish to see it!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Believers are snatched and meet the Lord in the air to forever be with the Lord! Why?? glad I asked.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
King James Version

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


For the purpose of having our works done in HIs name judged! Remember that our sins were judged at teh cross, which includes everything done outside of fatih! But why do we need our works judged and remain or be burned? Glad I asked this as well!

Revelation 19:6-9
King James Version

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Once the church has had all its works judged, then we marry the Lord in heaven! Then later in 19 we return with Him to earth and celebrate the marriage supper of the Lamb!
 
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keras

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It is there as I have shown you from SCripture! YOu just do not wish to see it!
This is why I don't find 'rapture' in the Bible, or any of the scripture's you present.
The prophesies tell us quite plainly, that we will go to live in all of the holy Land.
THAT is what I look forward to!
 
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claninja

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Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath, then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in Jerusalem there will be a holy remnant, the Lord’s people will be like a flame while the House of Esau will be burnt up with no survivors. My [Christian] people will possess all of the holy Land that was given to Abraham and those in Jerusalem who lead My people will control the lands of the Edomites, but the Kingdom belongs to the Lord.

Isaiah 28:21-22 The Lord will arise as He did at Mt Perazim and in the valley of Gibeon, and storm with rage to do what He must do, to perform His task – a strange and alien deed. But now, have done with all arrogance and pride or the Lord will increase His punishment, for destruction is decreed over the whole Land. Jeremiah 10:18

Isaiah 26:10-11 Lord: Your hand is lifted high and Your enemies can’t see Your good will toward Your people. [Let them see and be ashamed.] Let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them. The wicked are destroyed, they have never learnt justice, they are corrupt and blinded to Your Majesty and power.

Micah 4:11-12 Now, many nations are massed against Israel, they say: Let Zion suffer outrage, we will gloat over their demise. They are unaware of the Lord’s plans, for His purpose is to gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

Nahum 1:5 The earth quakes before the Lord, the world and all who live in it are in tumult. Who can stand before His wrath? Who can resist the fury of His anger, poured out as fire?


The Lord will arise and storm with rage, as He did in ancient times’. Jeremiah 30:23-24

His task, strange and alien’. We know God as a God of love, but also of justice and it is just to punish those who do not obey Him and who attack His Land. Isaiah 34:5

destruction is decreed’. The entire Middle East will be burnt and devastated. Ezekiel 30:3-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:3-15

‘fire reserved for the Lord’s enemies will consume them, His anger poured out as fire’. A massive sunstrike CME will fulfill all these prophesied effects. Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1

‘My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath’. This will be the third ‘swing of the sword’ Ezekiel 21:14, the final judgement/punishment of the Jewish people. Jeremiah 2:9, Eze.24:14

‘now, many nations are massed against Israel’. This perfectly describes the situation today and they want to ‘gloat over her demise’. Psalm 83:1-18

‘The House of Esau, burnt up – no survivors’. Those attacking Israel will be totally wiped out. Isaiah 63:1-6, Zephaniah 2:4-5

‘those who lead My people’. Another proof that all this will happen before the Return of Jesus. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11


"At hand", as in "literally" at hand or "not literally" at hand?

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Peter and James also stated that His coming was "at hand".

However, that means, from the futurists perspective, that "at hand" can mean 2,000 years.

If your "at hand" warning in this OP is literal, then either you or the apostles were correct. Considering the apostles' generation lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem, my money is on the Apostles being correct.

Mark 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.







 
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Timtofly

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"At hand", as in "literally" at hand or "not literally" at hand?

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Peter and James also stated that His coming was "at hand".

However, that means, from the futurists perspective, that "at hand" can mean 2,000 years.

If your "at hand" warning in this OP is literal, then either you or the apostles were correct. Considering the apostles' generation lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem, my money is on the Apostles being correct.

Mark 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Are you saying Jesus' Words in Mark cover future writings of the Apostles? How many generations from late 20's lived for the next 40 years? Then you have to figure out the blooming of the fig tree. My guess is time does not matter, because it has been 1990 years. Can you convince me the 1st century was last year? Do you even know if Peter was a futurist? If it was yet to happen, then Peter could not have been a historist or preterist. He would have not said it is still soon, because that is a future view, not a completed or historical view. Can you prove when 1 Peter and James were even written so "at hand" is even in context?

It still is at hand. That view will not change until after the Second Coming. Are you going to criticize any alleged earthlings in another 1900 years for being as wrong as humans today? Technically they would argue that you were wrong, and we are right. I mean we literally use the same words, "at hand". The passage of time is not consequential to the fact. That is why you can just symbolize time, because you cannot use the passage of time as an argument either.

The only logical conclusion is to deny they were right. That is not possible either. You have no proof either way, now, nor would have in another 1900 years. Any argument relating to being a literal at hand, more than likely ended a hundred years after all those in the 1st century died. Proof no longer existed. There is no proof to them being right or wrong. Using it in an argument now, is pointless. Being about God there is relevancy. Most claim it is still at hand. No one has even changed the original message did they? If they did claim it would happen in 2020, someone changed God’s Word.
 
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eclipsenow

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This is why I don't find 'rapture' in the Bible, or any of the scripture's you present.
The prophesies tell us quite plainly, that we will go to live in all of the holy Land.
THAT is what I look forward to!
We do to live in the holy land?
That's far too small for the eschatological message I see in the New Testament - far too small. But this is what happens when the metaphorical and spiritual are mistakenly interpreted as literal. It bends the whole message out of whack. Look - if God did actually say we were to live in a Millennium ruled from the Holy Lands for 1000 years in this space-time-continuum for some reason I haven't quite grasped yet - I'd just accept that. But not only do I not see it in the metaphorical language of Revelation - I don't see how it fits with the gospel! Literalism bends too much of the gospel direction out of shape. It's like moving from walking to the wheel to the horse and buggy to the motor car to the Electric Robot-Vehicle then back to the horse and buggy in a modern world. It's just out of order - not what we'd logically expect to come next.

Perhaps this article from Riddlebarger will help? It's about the temple and how that fits into eschatology... especially OT prophesies like Ezekiel.


Meg. T. asks:

"Dr. Riddlebarger, what is your take on Ezekiel's description of the Temple? I've never heard an amil explanation of the cooking pots and rooms for slaughtering the sacrifices of the people, and the chamber for the prince & his sacrifice. Puzzled."

Tyler asks:
"Dr. Kim, I was wanting to understand the Amill interpretation of Ezekiel 40-48. There is a lot of talk about a future temple. Thanks for your help."
___________________________________

These are great questions because discussions of the temple come up frequently, especially in light of the dispensational expectation of a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and then during millennial age. While I don't have the space to cover all of the details that Meg mentions, hopefully, I can give you a sense of how these things should be interpreted.

For starters, G. K. Beale has written an important book on this topic and anyone who has questions about Ezekiel's vision should get it and read it carefully (The Temple and the Church's Mission). For more information about Beale's book, The Temple and the Church's Mission: A Biblical Theology of the Dwelling Place of God. As Beale points out, there are four main interpretations of Ezekiel's prophecy and how it is fulfilled (or not) in the New Testament. Dispensationalists believe that this vision is a prophecy of an earthly temple to be built within Israel during the millennial age (cf. Pentecost, Things to Come, 393; Walvoord, Major Bible Prophecies, 169). Dispensationalists base this interpretation upon their literal hermeneutic, which they say demands that a prophecy such as this one be interpreted literally, unless there is good reason to believe the prophecy should be interpreted figuratively.

Unlike dispensationalists, advocates of the other main interpretations all agree that the context demands a figurative interpretation. I agree. Some see this an ideal temple never intended to be built upon the earth (in my estimation, the weakest interpretation), others see this as a vision of the ideal temple (OK, as far as it goes), while still others see this as a picture of a real heavenly temple, which will be established on the earth in a non-structural way in the latter days (Beale, The Temple and the Church's Mission, 335).

In other words, I believe Ezekiel is giving us a picture of the new earth in the prophetic terms with which his readers were familiar (Hoekema, The Bible and Future, 205). This is a picture of the new earth as the dwelling of God. Ezekiel prophesies it in earthly terms (complete with all the temple utensils), while John describes its fulfilled version (in eschatological terms).

Based upon a number of factors, I think it is clear that the prophecy is points to a non-structural end-times temple.

First, the prophecy cannot be interpreted literally and still make any sense. When God places the prophet on a very high mountain (40:1-2) he sees something like a city (obviously Jerusalem). Yet, there is no such high mountain near Jerusalem from which the prophet could have had such a vantage point. But this literal high mountain is required by the dispensational view. Where is it? Given the nature of Ezekiel's prophecy, this language should alert us to the fact that what follows is given the symbolic geography of the prophet.

This is confirmed in Revelation 21:10, where John is carried away "in the Spirit" to a high mountain from which he sees the Holy City coming down out of heaven. Obviously, the visions are related to each other as type-antitype (earthly language, eschatological fulfillment). What Ezekiel promised, John sees as a reality, and yet the reality seen by John far exceeds anything in Ezekiel's vision. As Beale points out, there are a significant number of other instances in this prophecy which make the literal interpretation very unlikely, if not impossible (pp. 337-340).

Second, there are a number of features within the prophecy which refer to something much greater than a localized temple in Jerusalem during the millennium. In verse 40:2, it is clear that Ezekiel sees a structure "like a city" (the temple), while in the final verse of the prophecy (48:35) he says that the cities' name is "the Lord is there." Here we have the expansion of the localized temple into an area the size of the entire city of Jerusalem. This expansion of God's temple is a consistent theme throughout Ezekiel (Beale, pp. 340-345) There are allusions to Eden throughout the prophecy (47:1-12). The city is depicted as a perfect square and the reference to the river is obviously symbolic, since it is deep enough that it can only be crossed by swimming (47:5).

Finally, it is obvious that Revelation 21 presents Ezekiel's vision in its consummated fulfillment. In other words, John is given a vision of the same temple, but now from the vantage point of Christ's death and resurrection and the dawn of the new creation--something which would have made no sense whatsoever to Ezekiel or his hearers. As Beale points out (pp. 346-345), the new heavens and earth are now the holy of holies, as well as the new Jerusalem, and the new Eden. On the last day, all creation becomes the temple of God. The temple has been expanded (extended) from a building, to a city, to all of creation.

This means that Ezekiel's vision is a prophecy not of an earthly temple (although the prophet uses earthly language his readers could understand), but of an eschatological temple, depicted in its consummated form and unspeakable glory by John in Revelation 21-22.
Amillennial Interpretation of Ezekiel 40-48 | Monergism
 
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keras

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We do to live in the holy land?
That's far too small for the eschatological message I see in the New Testament
Genesis 15:18 tells us the size of the holy Land.
It takes no notice of mans modern boundaries.

Isaiah 66:5-6 Hear the Word of the Lord, you who revere His Name and keep His commandments.
Those scoffers who say: Where is the Lord? When will your so-called God do anything? They will be shocked, for with a great noise His retribution will fall upon them.
2 Peter 3:1-7

Isaiah 63:18 Why have ungodly people trespassed on Your holy place? Why do enemies trample the holy Land? Psalms 37:10-11, Jeremiah 6:12

Jeremiah 12:8-17 Is this Land of Mine a hyena’s lair? The birds of prey and the wild beasts have taken My holy Land over, they ravage it and trample it down, making it a desolation, to My sorrow. The Lord says: I shall uproot all those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land that I allotted to My people. Judah too, I shall uproot, but if any of them learn the right ways of My people, then they can join and live again in the holy Land. My sword of punishment will devour the Land from end to end, no living thing will remain there. Hosea 4:3, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 6:11-13

Psalms 7:12-16 The enemy prepares his weapons again, but it is against himself that he has made ready his deadly shafts, tipped with fire. They are all in collusion with iniquity and sinfulness, their plans for violence and terror will fall upon their own heads. Joel 3:4

Psalms 68:1-3 May God arise and His enemies be scattered. He will disperse them like smoke. His fire will melt them like wax and they will perish in the heat of His wrath, but the righteous will be joyful, as they exult in the triumph of their God.

Isaiah 29:5-6 Suddenly, all in an instant, punishment will come from God Almighty with thunder, earthquakes and a great noise, with storm tempest and flames of devouring fire. The horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, that multitude of ruthless foes will scatter like chaff. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 24, Joel 2:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, Revelation 6:12-17, +

Birds of prey and wild beasts have taken over My Land… and the evil neighbours… These are metaphors for the ungodly peoples who are now living in the holy Land.

The enemies deadly shafts, tipped with fire – an ancient description for a modern weapon: a nuke tipped missile. It is against themselves; they have prepared their weapons and they will fall onto their own heads. Psalms 64:1-10, Habakkuk 3:3-14
All the weapons ready to fire at Israel will explode on the launch pad or in their bunkers. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come in the heat of the Lord’s wrath, causing earthquakes with flames of fire that will burn His enemies to ashes. As described here and throughout the Bible, this will be a Coronal Mass Ejection, a huge unprecedented explosion of the suns surface, that will fulfill all the graphic prophecies about the Lord’s judgement by fire. Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1 & 3

But the punishment by exile of the Lord’s people, who are now every faithful Christian, will be completed and the Lord will save and bless them. They will go to their inheritance, all that area promised to Abraham, cleansed from end to end by this terrible devastation by fire.

Many prophecies tell about the great second Exodus of the Christian Israelites to the holy Land, where they will work the Land in safety, being a light to the nations, Matthew 5:14-16, all as originally meant for them. Isaiah 49:3-8 They will send out 144,000 missionaries to tell the world the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7:1-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:18b-21
 
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eclipsenow

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Genesis 15:18 tells us the size of the holy Land. It takes no notice of mans modern boundaries.
Reading Genesis 15:18 as applying to today undoes Jesus living as the perfect temple, perfect nation of Israel, perfect fulfiller of the Covenant, etc and the changes in our very understanding of 'the land' as Christians. You're interpreting the New Covenant by the Old, rather than the way the disciples do by interpreting the Old Covenant through the lens of Jesus ministry, death, and resurrection - all of which fulfil the Old Covenant promises in new and interesting ways.

Isaiah 66:5-6 Hear the Word of the Lord, you who revere His Name and keep His commandments.


Irrelevant to our conversation today.

Those scoffers who say: Where is the Lord? When will your so-called God do anything? They will be shocked, for with a great noise His retribution will fall upon them. 2 Peter 3:1-7
This is about those who are unsaved and scoffing that the Lord will ever return, and is offensive to apply in our conversation between Dispensational theology and Covenant Reformed theology. Imagine if I said "In denying that the Lord could return in 5 seconds and being committed to your 9.5 year timetable, you are in effect scoffing just like the scoffers of 2 Peter 3?"
This verse is irrelevant to establishing which of these 2 theologies is correct.

Isaiah 63:18 Why have ungodly people trespassed on Your holy place? Why do enemies trample the holy Land? Psalms 37:10-11, Jeremiah 6:12
Because Israel was in a time of exile and judgement - again irrelevant to our current Amil vs Timetable discussion.

Jeremiah 12:8-17 Is this Land of Mine a hyena’s lair? The birds of prey and the wild beasts have taken My holy Land over, they ravage it and trample it down, making it a desolation, to My sorrow. The Lord says: I shall uproot all those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land that I allotted to My people. Judah too, I shall uproot, but if any of them learn the right ways of My people, then they can join and live again in the holy Land. My sword of punishment will devour the Land from end to end, no living thing will remain there. Hosea 4:3, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 6:11-13
Because Israel was in a time of exile and judgement - again irrelevant to our current Amil vs Timetable discussion. God's period of judgement came to an end and they went home, rebuilt the temple - and then Jesus said THAT temple would be destroyed.

Psalms 7:12-16 The enemy prepares his weapons again, but it is against himself that he has made ready his deadly shafts, tipped with fire. They are all in collusion with iniquity and sinfulness, their plans for violence and terror will fall upon their own heads. Joel 3:4
This is so irrelevant I'm not even sure why you're quoting it.

Psalms 68:1-3 May God arise and His enemies be scattered. He will disperse them like smoke. His fire will melt them like wax and they will perish in the heat of His wrath, but the righteous will be joyful, as they exult in the triumph of their God.

Sounds like judgement day.
I agree that the Lord will return and Judge, create a new Heaven and new Earth - and that we'll live in paradise with him for all eternity. I don't see why this has to start with some weird 1000 year in-between stage in the middle east - the language of Revelation and the eschatological epistles is too all encompassing. Again, this verse is irrelevant to establishing whether Amil or your Timetable theology is correct.

Isaiah 29:5-6 Suddenly, all in an instant, punishment will come from God Almighty with thunder, earthquakes and a great noise, with storm tempest and flames of devouring fire. The horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, that multitude of ruthless foes will scatter like chaff. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 24, Joel 2:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, Revelation 6:12-17, +
Woah! See what you did there? You just jumped covenants. You want to limit which verses you are discussing to those that are actually helpful to our current discussion and say WHY you're presenting them. I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about in this post at all because you're all over the shop. Try to say one thing and say it clearly.

Birds of prey and wild beasts have taken over My Land… and the evil neighbours… These are metaphors for the ungodly peoples who are now living in the holy Land.
No - sometimes it is actually complaining of the land being run down and the vineyards not being tended. It's poetic, but you can't just say anything is metaphor that you want to be metaphor and anything is literal that you want to be literal. There are ways to recognise the different genres - which you don't seem to be able to do.

The enemies deadly shafts, tipped with fire – an ancient description for a modern weapon: a nuke tipped missile. It is against themselves; they have prepared their weapons and they will fall onto their own heads. Psalms 64:1-10, Habakkuk 3:3-14
All the weapons ready to fire at Israel will explode on the launch pad or in their bunkers. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come in the heat of the Lord’s wrath, causing earthquakes with flames of fire that will burn His enemies to ashes. As described here and throughout the Bible, this will be a Coronal Mass Ejection, a huge unprecedented explosion of the suns surface, that will fulfill all the graphic prophecies about the Lord’s judgement by fire. Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1 & 3
I'm so over your inability to recognise OT prophecy as eschatological and just saying it is whatever you want it to be!

But the punishment by exile of the Lord’s people, who are now every faithful Christian, will be completed and the Lord will save and bless them. They will go to their inheritance, all that area promised to Abraham, cleansed from end to end by this terrible devastation by fire.
So you quote all the verses above and then just summarise like this? That's appalling. There was this major event between those verses and today called THE GOSPEL! I suggest you read it. Try Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews to get your head around how Jesus fulfils many of these prophecies you're banging on about, and how the Last Day will do so as a New Heavens and New Earth are all instantly introduced as well. The whole idea of a Millennium in the middle-east divorces and chops up various elements of the Last Day that just should not be separated!

Many prophecies tell about the great second Exodus of the Christian Israelites to the holy Land,
Ruuuuuuubbbbbbiiiiiiiiisssshhhh!
Just because YOU grab a prophecy and say "This is what it means!" doesn't make it so. Rather than just gish-gallop me with verses about the land being desolate and then the land being restored and secure, you need to show that these prophecies are not explained by other theological mechanisms I've already mentioned to you.
1. Already literally fulfilled under the Persian return to Israel.
2. Actually not a literal prophecy but more of a metaphor of heaven, as described in my previous post.
The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations


Matthew 5:14-16,...all as originally meant for them. Isaiah 49:3-8 They will send out 144,000 missionaries to tell the world the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7:1-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:18b-21
The servant of God in Isaiah is the Lord Jesus and we are in a ministry to go out and tell the nations. Not sure why you're putting Revelation's 144,000 in there when that's Hebrew number symbolism for the perfect complete wholeness of God's people = 12 Tribes times 12 Apostles times "a gazillion" (1000 was a big number back then.)

Basically, you seem to have an agenda and then assert that your timetable or agenda is correct and slip in a bunch of verses. You don't seem to have the knack of understanding how to select out the key verses that actually prove anything about your agenda, and are now trying to Gish Gallop me! I'll not be dignifying any more Gish Gallop posts like this with a full response. Learn how to comprehend what we are discussing and what the key verses are and why they are key to your argument. But hey? If they're all ripped out of context like Hosea 6 and Luke 13, then maybe you don't have any?
 
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keras

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Basically, you seem to have an agenda
Yes I do.
It is the agenda of God's Plan for mankind. How He Created humans, they went wrong and had to be almost wiped out in a great flood.
Then He chose a righteous man; Abraham, who fathered a people who should have been the ones to show the rest of the world how to live righteously. They failed, so God dispersed them, now in two groups; around the world. One group; Judah has returned, but still in apostasy. The other group; Israel, remain scattered among the nations, where they have mostly accepted the Gospel and become Christians, Jesus WAS successful. Matthew 21:43

The Bible Prophets tell us, in over 100 vividly described prophesies, that once again the Lord will act to correct the world, now: as in the days of Noah, Matthew 24:37-39
This sudden and shocking Day will commence all the prophesied end times events, leading up to the Return of Jesus in His glory, to reign for the next 1000 years.
Then comes Eternity. Revelation 21-22

If you reject this narrative, then we have no further grounds for discussion.
 
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eclipsenow

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Yes I do.
It is the agenda of God's Plan for mankind. How He Created humans, they went wrong and had to be almost wiped out in a great flood.
Then He chose a righteous man; Abraham, who fathered a people who should have been the ones to show the rest of the world how to live righteously. They failed, so God dispersed them, now in two groups;
Fail! There was only ever one plan all about being reconciled through Jesus Christ. That DIRECTLY contradicts scripture - as this article shows.

First, the very category of “replacement” is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15. The promise was that there would be a Savior. The national people was only a means to that end, not an end in itself. According to Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22, in Christ the dividing wall has been destroyed. It cannot be rebuilt. The two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) have been made one in Christ. Among those who are united to Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, there is no Jew nor Gentile (Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11).

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesn’t replace the existing document. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus’ house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses’ house.

Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ.

Third, the church has always been one, under various administrations, under types, shadows, and now under the reality in Christ, because the object of faith has always been one. Jesus the Messiah was the object of faith of the typological church (Heb. 11; Luke 24; 2 Cor. 3), and he remains the object of faith.

Fourth, despite the abrogation of the national covenant by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:14), the NT church has not “replaced” the Jews. Paul says that God “grafted” the Gentiles into the people of God. Grafting is not replacement, it is addition.

It has been widely held by Reformed theologians that there will be a great conversion of Jews. Some call this “anti-Semitism.” This isn’t anti-Semitism, it is Christianity. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). The alternative to Jesus’ exclusivist claim is universalism, which is nothing less than an assault on the person and finished work of Christ. Other Reformed writers understand the promises in Rom. 11 to refer only to the salvation of all the elect (Rom. 2:28) rather than to a future conversion of Jews. In any event, Reformed theology is not anti-semitic. We have always hoped and prayed for the salvation, in Christ, sola gratia et sola fide, of all of God’s elect, Jew and Gentile alike.
Covenant Theology Is Not Replacement Theology


If you reject this narrative, then we have no further grounds for discussion.
Ah, so you don't have to justify why you misread Hosea 6 or Luke 13?
Or why you've split the kingdom of God in two!?
You just say "End of discussion if you don't agree with me because I'm always right!" :oldthumbsup:
 
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keras

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Ah, so you don't have to justify why you misread Hosea 6 or Luke 13?
Or why you've split the kingdom of God in two!?
You just say "End of discussion if you don't agree with me because I'm always right!"
I think you have proved sufficiently to me and other members here, your strongly held beliefs and I mine. Only when the Day of the Lord happens, will the truth be known to all.
The Prophetic Word is the truth, my task is to promote it and warn people of what will happen.
I look forward to it, as it will be scary, but then great blessings for all who keep their faith and trust in the Lord.
 
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eclipsenow

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as it will be scary, but then great blessings for all who keep their faith and trust in the Lord.
The irony is that's pretty much the Amil position of life now.
There will be war and tyranny for some, prosperity and wealth and temptation to trust in worldly security for others. There may be war and famine and pestilence and death; or peace and prosperity and the trappings of materialism. There can be chaos in government, chaos in nature, chaos in general. We can get sick, those we love can get sick and die: and Revelation has had things to say about all this for 2000 years and counting. But there is great reward and eternal security for those who trust in the Lord and obey his message: 2000 years and counting. Reducing it all to a timetable you think is going to happen over the next few years:-
  1. Ignores why John said he was writing Revelation
  2. Makes a mockery of the very real tribulations Roman Christians went under
  3. Makes a mockery of Christianity and calls into question the whole system of belief in the eyes of unbelievers when futurists like yourself keep guessing and failing to guess the mysterious Day of the Lord.
  4. I checked the news and they still haven't bombed the Dome of the Rock? When are they going to start building?
  5. Oh - and how does it both happen in Jerusalem and also get built on a huge mountain that doesn't exist yet as depicted in Ezekiel - that other great 'literal' prophecy you insist will be fulfilled literally? :oldthumbsup:
  6. So there's going to be a Third and a FOURTH temple built? ^_^^_^^_^
  7. These guessing games would all be too funny if it wasn't so sad and so utterly embarrassing to the Lord Jesus and so damaging to evangelism.
  8. What is your version of the end-times-table - Version 26,986.5.1? :oldthumbsup:
 
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nolidad

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This is why I don't find 'rapture' in the Bible, or any of the scripture's you present.
The prophesies tell us quite plainly, that we will go to live in all of the holy Land.
THAT is what I look forward to!

so I guess you don't believe in teh Trinity either. That weord doesn't appear in teh Bible either! Do you really want to be that silly?

So instead of calling it the rapture, call it teh great snatching away or the great harpagmos

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You sound more like a Jehovah Witness than a believer here.
 
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keras

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  1. Ignores why John said he was writing Revelation Reply; Who does That?
  2. Makes a mockery of the very real tribulations Roman Christians went under R/ How do you get that?
  3. Makes a mockery of Christianity and calls into question the whole system of belief in the eyes of unbelievers when futurists like yourself keep guessing and failing to guess the mysterious Day of the Lord. R/ I do not guess the DoL , but you are right this bad practice is the 'cry wolf' syndrome.
  4. I checked the news and they still haven't bombed the Dome of the Rock? When are they going to start building? R/ The Lord will do that. Wait for the Day!
  5. Oh - and how does it both happen in Jerusalem and also get built on a huge mountain that doesn't exist yet as depicted in Ezekiel - that other great 'literal' prophecy you insist will be fulfilled literally? :oldthumbsup: R/ There will be tectonic plate shifting on the Day of the Lords wrath. Revelation 6:14b
  6. So there's going to be a Third and a FOURTH temple built? ^_^^_^^_^ R/ Yes.
  7. These guessing games would all be too funny if it wasn't so sad and so utterly embarrassing to the Lord Jesus and so damaging to evangelism. R/ We read the Bible; it tells us what God plans to do. I make no apology for pointing it out.
  8. What is your version of the end-times-table - Version 26,986.5.1? R/ I have posted the Bible version of Gods 7000 year timetable. Your rejection and denigration of it is on your head.
 
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