Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 28, 2017
3,778
2,856
Arizona
✟529,411.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)



CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)



• The Capitula of the Council
_________________________________________________________

11.

If anyone does not Anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,Nestorius, Eutyches and ORIEGEN as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and Anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and if anyone does not equally Anathematized all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned:
Let Him Be Anathema





• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________


9.

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.





main-image-2.jpeg


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)



CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)



• The Capitula of the Council
_________________________________________________________

11.

If anyone does not Anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,Nestorius, Eutyches and ORIEGEN as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and Anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and if anyone does not equally Anathematized all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned:
Let Him Be Anathema





• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________


9.

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.





main-image-2.jpeg


.

As you well know from previous lengthy discussions on this subject my friend, those 'capitula' were never confirmed by the Council as required to become canonical, and the Council was controlled by Justinian. Pope Vigilius and many other prelates refused to attend. It's no secret that Justinian, the Roman Emperor, long hated Origen's teachings and worked hard politically to condemn that gentle tradition.

So what you've presented here is no more than Caesar the devil's own words, which God stopped from entering law. Unfortunately you have fallen into a snare of satan there my friend, putting dark for light and evil for good. I pray you find the path to righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 28, 2017
3,778
2,856
Arizona
✟529,411.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Promoting The Lie and Heresy of universalism is setting people up for eternal damnation and encourages impiety in their lives because they don't fear consequences for their actions.


.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Promoting the lie of eternal damnation is making our holy, perfect and omnipotent God of pure light out to be hypocritical, blackhearted, pusillanimous, psychopathic, mendacious, rebarbative and a loser.

For God sent Jesus to save the world, because He wants all men saved, and His will to be all in all be done, because Jesus is the Salvation of God, the Omega plan, His mighty right arm, the word that does not fall to the ground, the promise sealed in holy blood of restoration and renewal of all things in the consummation of the ages when God's righteous acts are revealed to all those upon and under the earth.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Aion means eon, which is a finite indeterminate duration - an age or epoch. It may connote eternity in the appropriate context, which would be a hyperbolic sense, usage or rendering. If you set your mind on things aboveliation, you'll be able to avoid the things belowviation.
How many credit hours of Greek did you say you had? I appreciate this unsupported opinion. I know this is the information that you get from your favorite UR-R-US.C0M websites. Shall I once again show you the definition of "aion" from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons extant? Or quote from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT? In the EOB "aionios is translated "eternal" 72 times, everlasting 1 time and for ever 11 times. I think the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know what "aionios" means. Jesus used the word “aiōnios” 28 times, He never used “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” to refer to something ordinary or mundane which was not/cannot be eternal.

 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To glorify eternal damnation is to put dark for light and to perish in unbelief.
…..Refute any of this amigo. Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking* scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
* Native Greek speaking means Greek was their mother tongue they didn't learn it later as an adult.
EOB, footnote pg. 180
“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
Thus this shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Jesus used the word “aiōnios” 28 times, He never used “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” to refer to something ordinary or mundane which was not/cannot be eternal.
In the following 10 verses, Jesus, intentionally or not, defined/described “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” as “eternal” and “αἰών/aiōn” as “eternity.”

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aiōnios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “death.” If “live aiōnios” is living only a finite period, that is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiōnios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2-3]John 10:28-29
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aiōn] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
ου μη/ou mé, vs. 28, signifies “in nowise,””by no means,””never,” [fn below]. In these two verses Jesus defines both “aiōnios” and “aiōn” as “eternal” with these three phrases, “[not] snatch them out of my hand,” “never perish,” and “no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” If “aion/aiōnios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “never perish,[not] snatch them out of my hand/the father’s hand.”
[4-5]John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these two verses Jesus pairs “aiōnion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aiōnion life” here means eternal/everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus defines “aiōnios” as “eternal” with the phrases “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aiōnios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “shall not see life.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition here aiōnios means eternal.
[8]EOB John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never [ ου μη/ou mé] be thirsty again. Not only this, the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament. (Jn 4:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aiōnios with “shall never ου μη/ou mé thirst.” ου μη/ou mé means “in nowise, by no means,” [fn below] Aiōnios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aiōnios here means eternal.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aiōnios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) [αμην αμην/amen amen], I tell you; whoever keeps my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death.”[1]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna][fn] see death."
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament.
[fn]● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If anyone does not Anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,Nestorius, Eutyches and ORIEGEN as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and Anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and if anyone does not equally Anathematized all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned:
Let Him Be Anathema
This is what happens when evil men run the church.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Saint Steven said:
This is what happens when evil men run the church.
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context. See e.g.
Matthew 27:5 Judas departed, and went and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 Then said Jesus, Go, and do thou likewise.
Examples of God's "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shall smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shall smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
144,652
17,337
USA/Belize
✟1,738,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
ADVISOR HAT

256064_6429f71273587ebdde5b1038d8c1ccf4.jpg



Folks, you need to stop making this about people and stick to the topic of the ECF and their writings.


The Statement of Purpose includes:

Christian members may not accuse other Christian members of not being true Christians based on their orthodox or unorthodox beliefs. This is a place where members can discuss why they hold controversial unorthodox theologies to be in error and at odds with orthodox Christian theology, and for other members to defend and explain their unorthodox Christian theological beliefs.​


If you cannot comply with that, it would be better not to post in this thread.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: mlepfitjw
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

That reply is a classic example of dogma before truth. And it ends with a veiled threat lol. How gracious. Truly I tell you, if God is sending ppl to hell forever because they didn't accept His 'love', then I would elect to join them out of compassion alone.

We all get such a surprise when the truth is revealed. It's called true love, and I commend it to you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Who, better than the native Greek speaking* scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?

Better an Eskimo who knows the love of Christ than a pretentious native Greek scholar.

EOB, footnote pg. 180
“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
Thus this shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Jesus used the word “aiōnios” 28 times, He never used “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” to refer to something ordinary or mundane which was not/cannot be eternal.
In the following 10 verses, Jesus, intentionally or not, defined/described “αἰώνιος/aiōnios” as “eternal” and “αἰών/aiōn” as “eternity.”

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aiōnios]In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “death.” If “live aiōnios” is living only a finite period, that is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiōnios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2-3]John 10:28-29
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aiōn] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

(29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.ου μη/ou mé, vs. 28, signifies “in nowise,””by no means,””never,” [fn below]. In these two verses Jesus defines both “aiōnios” and “aiōn” as “eternal” with these three phrases, “[not] snatch them out of my hand,” “never perish,” and “no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” If “aion/aiōnios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “never perish,[not] snatch them out of my hand/the father’s hand.”
[4-5]John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.In these two verses Jesus pairs “aiōnion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aiōnion life” here means eternal/everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.In this verse Jesus defines “aiōnios” as “eternal” with the phrases “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aiōnios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios life” with “shall not see life.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition here aiōnios means eternal.
[8]EOB John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never [ ου μη/ou mé] be thirsty again. Not only this, the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life.”

Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament. (Jn 4:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.In this verse Jesus contrasts aiōnios with “shall never ου μη/ou mé thirst.” ου μη/ou mé means “in nowise, by no means,” [fn below] Aiōnios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aiōnios here means eternal.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aiōnios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.In this verse Jesus contrasts “aiōnios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aiōnios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aiōnios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) [αμην αμην/amen amen], I tell you; whoever keeps my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death.”[1]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna][fn] see death."
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Easter/Greek Orthodox Bible:New Testament.[fn]● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

I have no objection to any of that, indeed thank you for your work in the compilation.

But what does 'eternal' really mean? It may mean 'outside of time' or 'beyond the temporal'. This why some translate it as 'ages of the ages', or 'age-during'. It may be different from 'infinite'.

You see, we moderns have a conventional understanding, and necessarily a limited one, of the concept, sense or knowledge of the eternal. As mere mortals, we cannot grasp its full scope, but only by the grace of God catch a dim emanation of it, as through a glass, darkly. My view is that to know the eternal is a theological question, because it's a quality of God.

So you may be quite comfortable that you can put a nice little definition on such a mysterious and ineffable concept. Good for you, if you can drum it into service of your dogma. But as for me and my family, we shall follow the Lord.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Better an Eskimo who knows the love of Christ than a pretentious native Greek scholar.
Or an anonymous pretentious UR poster online who does not know the difference between an aorist and an apple cart.
Since they were vetted by the EO diocese I'm certain they know what they were doing. Got any more specious comments?

But what does 'eternal' really mean? It may mean 'outside of time' or 'beyond the temporal'. This why some translate it as 'ages of the ages', or 'age-during'. It may be different from 'infinite'.
You see, we moderns have a conventional understanding, and necessarily a limited one, of the concept, sense or knowledge of the eternal. As mere mortals, we cannot grasp its full scope, but only by the grace of God catch a dim emanation of it, as through a glass, darkly. My view is that to know the eternal is a theological question, because it's a quality of God.
So you may be quite comfortable that you can put a nice little definition on such a mysterious and ineffable concept. Good for you, if you can drum it into service of your dogma. But as for me and my family, we shall follow the Lord.
Trying to muddy the water with a lot of smoke and mirrors which are incredibly easy to answer. You could do what I am about to do.
In the EOB "aionios" is translated "eternal" 72 times, "for ever" 11 times and "everlasting" 1 time. I'm certain that the scholars who did that translating knew what they were doing compared to the speculation of anonymous amateurs online.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Or an anonymous pretentious UR poster online who does not know the difference between an aorist and an apple cart.

In no wise will vicious-minded persons enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Trying to muddy the water with a lot of smoke and mirrors which are incredibly easy to answer. You could do what I am about to do.
In the EOB "aionios" is translated "eternal" 72 times, "for ever" 11 times and "everlasting" 1 time. I'm certain that the scholars who did that translating knew what they were doing compared to the speculation of anonymous amateurs online.

That's right, I'm just an anonymous amateur Christian, poor in scholarship and weak of mind. It's only by faith in the grace of the eternal God and His infinite mercy that I may briefly enjoy the privilege of learning at the feet of those so rich in wisdom and virtue.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's right, I'm just an anonymous amateur Christian, poor in scholarship and weak of mind. It's only by faith in the grace of the eternal God and His infinite mercy that I may briefly enjoy the privilege of learning at the feet of those so rich in wisdom and virtue.
Well... I have great news for you. - lol

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.
Do demons have knees? What about tongues? Do demons have tongues?
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge (whole-heartedly, openly declare, without reservation) Jesus Christ is Lord.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Do demons have knees? What about tongues? Do demons have tongues?
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge (whole-heartedly, openly declare, without reservation) Jesus Christ is Lord.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Quite right - shall we compare and contrast the great Koreshic Oath sworn by God in Isaiah 45:23, as reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10, with the creepy little anathema pronounced by Jude's Roman Emperor buddy Justinian?

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.


Well, they can't both be right. Either the demons and impious men confess and believe, or they're punished forever.

Now Jude is orthodox, so he prefers the Councils over the Bible. But as for me and my family, we'll follow the Lord.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Quite right - shall we compare and contrast the great Koreshic Oath sworn by God in Isaiah 45:23, as reiterated in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10, with the creepy little anathema pronounced by Jude's Roman Emperor buddy Justinian?
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,

Let Him Be Anathema.
Well, they can't both be right. Either the demons and impious men confess and believe, or they're punished forever.
Now Jude is orthodox, so he prefers the Councils over the Bible. But as for me and my family, we'll follow the Lord.
Twisted scripture. Neither Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11 nor Philippians 2:10 says ...every tongue will swear allegiance..
.....Contrary to the false UR-its narrative, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
.....Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in
that day,*(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

* (fn) "That day" =the day of judgment.
After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars," [Rev 21:8, etc.] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 8 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
8. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool as the enemies of Joshua did and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0