MJ Only The Goodly Olive Tree

What is the goodly olive tree from Romans 11?

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GedaliahMaegil

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The letter of Rav Sha`ul to the Romans that are beloved by Elohim and set-apart to Him has been read, re-read, dissected, patched back together, dissected again, and you may not find two people who read it and will have identical positions concerning the comprehensive whole of it.

In what men have called the 11th chapter, we see a reference to the descendants of Yisra`el, much as we have in many portions of the letter. In this case, a curious pair of allegories - the goodly olive tree and the wild olive tree - are presented for consideration, as well as their branches.

It's not the first time that this sort of allegory has appeared in the Scriptures. We also see such allegories being used by Messiah Yeshua in the Besorot and the Levi, Asaf, in Tehillah (Psalm) 80.

So, with that said, what do you believe is this "goodly" olive tree that Sha`ul speaks of? Please, vote above and discuss below. I would be remiss, if I did not remind participants of the prerequisite acknlowgement of the SOP of this section of the forums and the agreement to abide by its restrictions.
 

AbbaLove

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I've attended many Christian churches, of many denominations; and I've never heard anyone who didn't understand the cultivated tree to be Israel.
Hark hasn't been around the Christian block very long. Did the fig tree representing Israel (that Yahshua/Yeshua cursed) wither because it wasn't cultivated? It's a parable that the Pharisaical Sanhedrin didn't cultivate GOD'S Word in their own hearts being themselves barren trusting more in their own pious piety and traditions. Were olive trees abundant in Israel from 100 AD to 1950 AD? For centuries thee "Church" thought it was the one and only cultivated Olive tree having replaced Israel as His beloved children (replacement theology or supersessionism) likewise too with Protestantism until recently, but not totally.

Now that the age of the Gentiles is in its final hour (some say since 1948/49) a fair population within Christianity has come to the realization that Israel and Jerusalem are GOD'S cherished homeland on planet earth with it's blooming deserts, fig trees, grapes and lush olive groves ... just to name a few of its bountiful agri-produce in such quantities that the overflow is exported.

Apparently, Hark is still wet behind the ears as it's primarily only been in the 21st Century that Christianity has taken on such an interest in what's become known by some Christians as the Hebraic Roots of Christianity.
 
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GedaliahMaegil

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I've attended many Christian churches, of many denominations; and I've never heard anyone who didn't understand the cultivated tree to be Israel.

Well, perhaps we'll be able to take a sufficient sampling of viewpoints to see how that plays out. Already we have a single vote saying that the tree is Messiah.
 
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HARK!

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Well, perhaps we'll be able to take a sufficient sampling of viewpoints to see how that plays out. Already we have a single vote saying that the tree is Messiah.

The poll is a reasonably good test.

The way I understand it, Messiah is the root.
 
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Mr. M

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Well, perhaps we'll be able to take a sufficient sampling of viewpoints to see how that plays out. Already we have a single vote saying that the tree is Messiah.
1 Kings 6: Use of the Olive Tree
31 And for the entering of the oracle he made doors of olive tree: the lintel and side posts were a fifth part of the wall.
32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.
33 So also made he for the door of the temple posts of olive tree, a fourth part of the wall.

Also, the two cherubims who guard the entrance.
23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

John 15:9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out,
and find pasture.

The Pharisees blocked The Door.
Matthew 23:13.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

John 4:22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
 
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TreWalker

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Well, perhaps we'll be able to take a sufficient sampling of viewpoints to see how that plays out. Already we have a single vote saying that the tree is Messiah.
24 For if you (Gentiles) were cut out of that which by nature is a wild olive tree, and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches (JEWS) be grafted into their own olive tree?

The answer is right there in the text. And I like the term cultivate instead of goodly. Which implies the wild tree is not good. It's just not cultivated.

But i still see most here completely missing Shaul's main point. It's not about who the tree is or who is grafted, it's about baseless hatred against the Jews.

18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Gentiles considered themselves superior to Jews, why? It's the reason Shaul wrote the book to begin with. The Jews were kicked out of Rom in the late 40's leaving only non-Jewish believers in Rome. Imagine a thriving Jewish community with many believing Jews who were forming synagogues where the non-Jews are hearing the good news and becoming part of the community when Rome kicks out all the Jews leaving you there with no community to learn from and even worse, no Torah scroll or the ability to read it. They did the best they could with what they remembered, but this is where replacement theology started. They eventually thought themselves better than the Jews and started believing Jews were punished and rejected by G-d, having given the 'kingdom' to the Gentiles.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


In ignorance many believe that the fullness of the Gentiles implies a complete emptying of the Jews in order for that to happen. Jews have rejected G-d and are so rejected by G-d. Gentiles are now accepted by G-d. Jews, because of their unbelief are being judged and the kingdom has been given to those in the nations who 'believe'. Supersessionism is birthed. In Rome, '45-49' CE. And so Shaul is writting this letter to help the discention as Jews were starting to come back to Rome after the expulsion.

Again, imagine coming back to the home you were banished from only to find those who you were teaching now think themselves better than you and are going to teach you now.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”​

I see the same baseless hatred still existing here today. Jews are to be rejected because some of us rejected Messiah, but you who supposedly claim to have the Ruach know better, and most of all. You who reject us are to be accepted, while we who accept you are to be rejected. (sounds fair HaShem)

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Who preaches that HaShem takes away the sins of Israel? Who here teaches that though Jews have turned godless and away from our father Jacob, yet THIS covenant made with US takes away OUR sins?

Just as you, were godless and have now received mercy, as a result of the Jews disobedience. SO TOO have the Jews become disobedient 'in order that' we too may receive mercy, because of YOU.

We are tied. You will not understand your own redemption UNTIL you understand the redemption of Yisrael. If you deny her redemption you are denying your own. If you deny the truth that our Moshiach came first and foremost to save and redeem the Jews, you will in turn deny the truth that our Moshiach came also to save and redeem you in the nations.

You can't have sinat chinam against us and still be found right in G-d's sight. Your hatred for us will keep you yourself from being redeemed. Likewise, if you love and support Yisrael as HaShem speaks and does, HaShem will support you as he has promised, us both.

I know if I reject non-Jews as being grafted into our cultivated family I will be cut out of it. Why do many here not see that if you reject Jews as being grafted into our 'own' tree, while acting superior to us because of your pride of being grafted into our tree, you too will be cut off.

This is Shaul's main point of the letter, and this chapter exemplifies it. We are both/all disobedient and require mercy and love for one another.

Baseless hatred is what led to the Jewish exile, why would you want to follow in those footsteps? It will only lead to an eternal exile out of the kingdom of heaven.
 
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GedaliahMaegil

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24 For if you (Gentiles) were cut out of that which by nature is a wild olive tree, and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches (JEWS) be grafted into their own olive tree?

The answer is right there in the text. And I like the term cultivate instead of goodly. Which implies the wild tree is not good. It's just not cultivated.

And yet, Mordekhai was the first one referred to as a Yehudi in Tanakh, as were all those in the time of the captivity in Persia. They were taken from the kingdom of Yehudah, hence the name. Given that, the natural branches are not the answer, as the tree long preceded them. So, the goodly olive tree cannot be limited to the Jews; otherwise, the Patriarchs and many who came from them and were gathered to them would be excluded, something I am certain you would not agree with.

As for the term I used, I said "goodly" not "good". It corresponds to the greek word used in Sha`ul's letter, καλός, which is different from the greek word for "good", ἀγαθός. Goodly was the most appropriate english term for what was being conveyed, and it corresponds to the word used in Vayik`ra (Leviticus) 23:40, הָדָר, when speaking of one of the species of the lulav. The english definition of goodly is "having a good quality" or "being pleasantly attractive". So, please don't confuse the word goodly with the word good, nor the whole of the tree with its branches. Goodly trees are often cultivated to have the appearance and quality described, as opposed to something that grows wild and is not guaranteed any measure of quality of pleasantness.

But i still see most here completely missing Shaul's main point. It's not about who the tree is or who is grafted, it's about baseless hatred against the Jews.

18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.​

Indeed, that is Sha`ul's main point in the section into which the allegory is placed, but it also immediately follows his point concerning a remnant that will be preserved of Yisra`el. This, of course, hails back to Avraham's being called out, as a fragment of a larger people, to stand apart to HaShem, as well to the later generation of the B`nai Yisra`el in the wilderness, who entered the land while their forebears died due to unbelief, in addition to those who were taken into captivity to Bavel, while the remainder were left in Y`rushalayim and Yehudah to perish according to the Word of HaShem, as given to the N`vi`im.

Sha`ul's over-arching point in all this is a discussion of what the Yisra`el of HaShem and what the role of the gerim is, a role that is not at all supplantive.
Gentiles considered themselves superior to Jews, why? It's the reason Shaul wrote the book to begin with. The Jews were kicked out of Rom in the late 40's leaving only non-Jewish believers in Rome.

Interesting, but there were conflicting reports from historians as to precisely how many Jews were removed from the city, both in the time of Claudius and before then. There are also conflicting reports concerning whether the explusion was only limited to Jews or also to Jews and gerim alike who followed after Messiah. As is the way with many expulsions and ethnic persecutions throughout history, there are unintended consequences possible in each.

Imagine a thriving Jewish community with many believing Jews who were forming synagogues where the non-Jews are hearing the good news and becoming part of the community when Rome kicks out all the Jews leaving you there with no community to learn from and even worse, no Torah scroll or the ability to read it. They did the best they could with what they remembered, but this is where replacement theology started. They eventually thought themselves better than the Jews and started believing Jews were punished and rejected by G-d, having given the 'kingdom' to the Gentiles.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

It was so, but such things are only being reviewed in a proper light of history in recent years. Prior to that, religious authourities were content to let the victors write history, which was tragic and led to much bitterness and, as you have said, "baseless hatred".

In ignorance many believe that the fullness of the Gentiles implies a complete emptying of the Jews in order for that to happen. Jews have rejected G-d and are so rejected by G-d. Gentiles are now accepted by G-d. Jews, because of their unbelief are being judged and the kingdom has been given to those in the nations who 'believe'. Supersessionism is birthed. In Rome, '45-49' CE. And so Shaul is writting this letter to help the discention as Jews were starting to come back to Rome after the expulsion.

Again, imagine coming back to the home you were banished from only to find those who you were teaching now think themselves better than you and are going to teach you now.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”​

It was so, a complete turnaround of what Sha`ul's point was, to the point where the goodly olive tree was no longer viewed as attractive and religious authourities chose to make the wild olive as the focus of salvation. Considering the pattern of the Scriptures, the view, while it has been popular for centuries, can't stand up in the light of the Word.

I see the same baseless hatred still existing here today. Jews are to be rejected because some of us rejected Messiah, but you who supposedly claim to have the Ruach know better, and most of all. You who reject us are to be accepted, while we who accept you are to be rejected. (sounds fair HaShem)

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.​

Well, that certainly calls into question who has the Ruach and who does not. Fruit of righteousness has been a standard indicator in the Scriptures. Those who claim the Ruach and yet show hatred and disdain for those HaShem chose to bring salvation out from are a contradiction and their dogmata suspect.

Who preaches that HaShem takes away the sins of Israel? Who here teaches that though Jews have turned godless and away from our father Jacob, yet THIS covenant made with US takes away OUR sins?

Just as you, were godless and have now received mercy, as a result of the Jews disobedience. SO TOO have the Jews become disobedient 'in order that' we too may receive mercy, because of YOU.

We are tied. You will not understand your own redemption UNTIL you understand the redemption of Yisrael. If you deny her redemption you are denying your own. If you deny the truth that our Moshiach came first and foremost to save and redeem the Jews, you will in turn deny the truth that our Moshiach came also to save and redeem you in the nations.

You can't have sinat chinam against us and still be found right in G-d's sight. Your hatred for us will keep you yourself from being redeemed. Likewise, if you love and support Yisrael as HaShem speaks and does, HaShem will support you as he has promised, us both.

I know if I reject non-Jews as being grafted into our cultivated family I will be cut out of it. Why do many here not see that if you reject Jews as being grafted into our 'own' tree, while acting superior to us because of your pride of being grafted into our tree, you too will be cut off.

This is Shaul's main point of the letter, and this chapter exemplifies it. We are both/all disobedient and require mercy and love for one another.

Baseless hatred is what led to the Jewish exile, why would you want to follow in those footsteps? It will only lead to an eternal exile out of the kingdom of heaven.

It was not the main point of the letter, but one of many. As you have said, many of the Jews were being expelled, along with the knowledge of the "oracles" given them in Tanakh. Sha`ul also wanted to give a central point of instruction over many matters, so that those gerim who had joined with B'nei Yisra`el would not languish in ignorance and slip back into the ways of the nations they came out of. His letter to the Romans was very Torah-centric, while explaining the relation of Torah to the ministry and redemption of Messiah, ending with good teaching to those who had to deal with a situation that was quickly spiraling out of their control (albeit not out of the control of HaShem).
 
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