Non-Christians: What do you think about the Crucifixion?

Unofficial Reverand Alex

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." --John 3:16

isenheim_altarpiece_the_crucifixion_by_matthias_grunewald.jpg


Something mentioned in all of Christianity, and especially emphasized by the more traditional branches of Christianity, is the Crucifixion. There have been countless books, sermons, and quotes about this profound element of Christ's life, and I encourage you to look some up if you want to get a deeper understanding thereof.

Where the Crucifixion becomes especially relevant in our lives is when we encounter suffering. There are numerous Biblical examples, and everyone can imagine examples in their own lives, where they have suffered for seemingly no reason. You were innocent, deserving no suffering (or at least, less than was inflicted), and that didn't seem to matter. Job loss, divorce, broken bones, mental illness, anything that makes life miserable.

The Christian answer to senseless suffering goes deeper than any other answer, because no one else embraces innocent suffering like Jesus Christ. Does this satisfy the burning question of why bad things happen to good people? I don't think anything truly does, but embracing the One who embraced our suffering has brought me much peace through pain. Even if I have been dealt a terrible hand in life (as at some points, my mental duress has led me to believe, and my investment in human trafficking has shown me from others' lives), there is still One who has suffered worse, exclusively to be with me through my suffering. So non-Christians: What do you think?

I offer this bit of John Pridmore's testimony as a short but powerful description, from a man who suffered immensely, but found the power of the Crucifixion. I copied the URL for a specific time, around the 23 minute mark, which is shortly before he describes the Crucifixion in his own life:


And I do encourage you, if you have some time to spend on something that may make a huge difference in a seemingly meaningless & unlovable life, to give Fr. Mike Schmitz about 40 minutes to go into this discussion more deeply. I want to emphasize that I share this whole post, and especially this video, as a true desire to help people. No other religion can bring so much divine meaning through suffering, no other god even tries to come down as a suffering human, and no other philosophy could bring forth meaning from my own life that I truly believed to be meaningless for so many depressed years, than a true understanding of the Crucifixion. If you understand nothing else from my post, I pray you may at least understand my sincerity, and the sincerity of so many others that truly want to bring healing to people, through the God who embraced it all.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I'm not sure what kind of answer the OP, @Unofficial Reverand Alex, is expecting.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in gods. It follows that I don't believe in the Christian god. It follows that I don't believe Jesus was the son of god. It follows that I don't think he suffered for us if any of the described events even happened.

This man's suffering is not more meaningful to me than that of Anne Frank, Elie Wiesel, Nelson Mandela, or the nameless kid that was raped to death by a nameless predator. It isn't a lesson. It isn't a comfort. It isn't a challenge. If it was at all, it just was.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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What do I think about the Crucifixion? I think it was a fairly common method of execution employed by the Roman’s and others that maximizes pain and suffering ultimately resulting in death. In regards to the Crucifixion of Jesus, he was not the first Jew killed in that manner and wasn’t the last. Other than that, I try not to dwell on methods of torture and execution.
 
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Putting aside the obvious problem of God’s (non) existence, I’ve never been able to work out the logic of the crucifixion.

Why would God arrange for the death of an itinerant Jewish rabbi? Whether or not this rabbi was the Son of God doesn’t resolve the problem. Why would God need to arrange His death as a reason for Him (God) to forgive sin?

There’s also the problem of God appearing to revise His attitude to sin. If it required Jesus’ crucifixion to somehow cause God to forgive sin, it seems that God did not forgive sin prior to the crucifixion. Did God kill Himself in order to convince Himself He ought to forgive sin?

The deeper you go into this the less sensible it becomes.


OB
 
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cloudyday2

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I try not to think about the Crucifixion, because reading about cruelty makes me depressed - even if there is a happy ending as there is in the Gospels.

I think Christian theologians made a mistake by trying to make the Crucifixion into a victory (through vicarious redemption, etc.). The victory in the Gospels is the Resurrection.
 
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The Christian answer to senseless suffering goes deeper than any other answer, because no one else embraces innocent suffering like Jesus Christ.
Reminds me of a cartoon in the Russell's Teapot series. Jesus and Prometheus meet at MartyrCon, and Jesus comes off worst in a competition with Prometheus, who spent centuries having his liver torn to pieces by an eagle because Zeus was angry with him for giving fire to mortals.
 
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cloudyday2

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Maybe the Crucifixion was the a theological focal point for early Christians, because it seemed to be such clear evidence that Jesus was NOT the Christ/Messiah as had been previously hoped/claimed during the ministry of Jesus. As the focal point of early skepticism, it is maybe not too surprising that the Crucifixion began to be understood as a mystical victory rather than a tragic disappointment. There was no other way to keep the Jesus Movement alive.
 
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When I was a christian the Crucifixion made sense to me in context of the christian doctrine. What did not make sense to me was why the cross is the symbol of Christianity. I always thought the symbol should be a torn curtain. The torn curtain symbolized the separation between God and man that was due to man's sin and now we have direct access to God. The cross symbolizes god's forgiveness of sin, the torn curtain symbolizes that we now have direct access to god which I think is the ultimate goal that god had. Of course assuming all of this is true.
 
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The message of the cross is incoherent. Why couldn't God forgive us as an act of will? God appears to be above the Torah law because he breaks it all the time. But now suddenly he is beholden to the law and he can't just excuse sin. Also, if Christ really were to take our punishment, he would be serving billions of eternities in hell. Instead, he spent half a weekend maybe in hell, or maybe in Abraham's bosom, or maybe just dead... who knows?
 
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essentialsaltes

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While it's a terrible way to go, Jesus wasn't the only person to be crucified -- even on that day according to the gospel accounts.

The idea that the death of an itinerant teacher in some Roman province is a divine message for everyone on the face of the planet seems bewilderingly unlikely.
 
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Caliban

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." --John 3:16

isenheim_altarpiece_the_crucifixion_by_matthias_grunewald.jpg


Something mentioned in all of Christianity, and especially emphasized by the more traditional branches of Christianity, is the Crucifixion. There have been countless books, sermons, and quotes about this profound element of Christ's life, and I encourage you to look some up if you want to get a deeper understanding thereof.

Where the Crucifixion becomes especially relevant in our lives is when we encounter suffering. There are numerous Biblical examples, and everyone can imagine examples in their own lives, where they have suffered for seemingly no reason. You were innocent, deserving no suffering (or at least, less than was inflicted), and that didn't seem to matter. Job loss, divorce, broken bones, mental illness, anything that makes life miserable.

The Christian answer to senseless suffering goes deeper than any other answer, because no one else embraces innocent suffering like Jesus Christ. Does this satisfy the burning question of why bad things happen to good people? I don't think anything truly does, but embracing the One who embraced our suffering has brought me much peace through pain. Even if I have been dealt a terrible hand in life (as at some points, my mental duress has led me to believe, and my investment in human trafficking has shown me from others' lives), there is still One who has suffered worse, exclusively to be with me through my suffering. So non-Christians: What do you think?

I offer this bit of John Pridmore's testimony as a short but powerful description, from a man who suffered immensely, but found the power of the Crucifixion. I copied the URL for a specific time, around the 23 minute mark, which is shortly before he describes the Crucifixion in his own life:


And I do encourage you, if you have some time to spend on something that may make a huge difference in a seemingly meaningless & unlovable life, to give Fr. Mike Schmitz about 40 minutes to go into this discussion more deeply. I want to emphasize that I share this whole post, and especially this video, as a true desire to help people. No other religion can bring so much divine meaning through suffering, no other god even tries to come down as a suffering human, and no other philosophy could bring forth meaning from my own life that I truly believed to be meaningless for so many depressed years, than a true understanding of the Crucifixion. If you understand nothing else from my post, I pray you may at least understand my sincerity, and the sincerity of so many others that truly want to bring healing to people, through the God who embraced it all.
It is most likely that if an itinerant preacher was crucified by the Romans, his body was committed to the trash heap like the rest of the executed. The rest is mythology.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Crucifixion -- lousy way to die; used by the Romans as punishment for traitors, rebels, and would-be revolutionaries of all stripes. Seeing the last guy who tried to buck the system hanging naked from a piece of lumber gives future would-be boatrockers something to think about.

Not a Christian myself, but I can certainly see how this particular event caused no end of trouble for the Christian movement. There's nothing in any of the messianic prophecy about the Messiah getting caught... and of course, actually dying pretty much put the kibosh on it; some serious re-thinking was in order.
 
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Piet Strydom

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Putting aside the obvious problem of God’s (non) existence, I’ve never been able to work out the logic of the crucifixion.

Why would God arrange for the death of an itinerant Jewish rabbi? Whether or not this rabbi was the Son of God doesn’t resolve the problem. Why would God need to arrange His death as a reason for Him (God) to forgive sin?

There’s also the problem of God appearing to revise His attitude to sin. If it required Jesus’ crucifixion to somehow cause God to forgive sin, it seems that God did not forgive sin prior to the crucifixion. Did God kill Himself in order to convince Himself He ought to forgive sin?

The deeper you go into this the less sensible it becomes.


OB
This is perhaps the best question any person can ask, and it is also perhaps the one most theologans can not answer.
And it is a valid question indeed.
I did not understand this "forgiveness of sin with the blood of Christ" theory and I decided to try to see what is meant by "Sins are washed away bu the Blood of Christ" etc.

The answers I got was most certainly one of dogma with long winded theological proposals. Me being a simple and practical person just could not grasp what was said.
Eventually I read the Bible with the mind to note everything about sacrifices and covering sin with blood.

This is how it works.
God created Adam, (Mankind) to live forever, not to die. He told Adam that if he sould eat of the forbidden fruit, he will surely die. This means Adam (and Eve) were immortal creations. We also know that prior to their state of being under the curse of sin, Adam and Eve did not know they were naked. The reason is that they were created in the immage of God, and God is covered in a bright white light and wears light as we wear garments (Psalm 104:2)

After Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their immortality, and their glorious light vanished, and they covered themself with leaves.
God then slaughtered animals, and used their skins to dress the human.

Ok, so what is the significance of this story?
Well, God is Life, and there is no death in God. Death is the absence of God. Adam and Eve became living corpses ageing day by day. We have billions of dead cells in and on our bodies, and more and more cells die as we grow older. No living being in this corrupt state can appear in front of God, it is just impossible to bring death to God.
However, with sacrifices, blood is shead, and it somehow covers, or if I may use the word, blood radiates something that covers the decaying bodies we live in, and this allowed God to live amongst Israel in Sinai.
When Moses faced God, he was not allowed to look directly to God, but only from the back with the hand of God protecting Moses from destruction. even this light radiated from God and made Moses shine with light so bright, that the elders in Israel had to cover Moses for the fear the people had looking at him.

We will also recall that Jesus was glorified and He turned into a bright light, and when He ascended into heaven, He changed into a bright white light.
Therefore, It is a Biblical claim that God created Man to live forever in a body that does not have any decay or death in it.

OK, so as for the offering of sin and blood that takes away our sin, this is the angle to the story.
Blood sacrifice covers the sin of the person who is in the presence of God. The High Preists used blood sacrifices to cover not only people, but every utensil and object in the Tabernacle, and later in the Temple. This allowed the Glory of God to enter the Tabernacle and temple. If you read the Bible, and eventually end up in the letters of the apostles, you will find how they give numerous descriptions on how the priests of old had to mke blood sacrifices to allow God to lead Israel, but they continue to describe how Jesus was now the Blood Sacrifice who covered all the sin of the world by His death.

During the 3 Days where Jesus was dead in the grave, His spirit descended to a place called the kingdom of death, where he spoke to the dead souls showing them how they will change into an immortal body again at the day of judgement. This was the promise fullfilled where God will restore us to the state as Adam and Eve were in the beginning.
This was the creation Jesus brought back to human kind who is now a living dead body, or as the Bible calls it, our "born in sin" bodies.

To end off, many people would claim that children are not born in sin, and people can not be judged on the sins of their ancestors, but they dont realise that the "inherrited sin" from our ancestors are not something we do wrong such as lying, or stealing, no, it is the sinfull body we are born in which Adam through his sin brought death to all of us.
Physically, our bodies reek of death, and in the perfect existance of a perfect God, we are nothing.
However, He still sent His Word who became flesh, yes decaying and dying human like us, to die like us under the curse of death, to allow us to get a new immortal body to return to God as His companions and friend. Did God know this will all happen when He created Adam?
Yes He did, and the reason was that he knew Satan will corrupt His creation, he knew mankind will revolt against him, but he also knew that amongst all his created children, there will be those that will not forsake Him, and he let history go by so to allow them to be saved.
He also know that those that denyHim, will be destroyed, together with Satan and his fallen angels.

There is a saying.
If you love someone, let him / her go!
If they return, they are the ones who love you.

What use if God would force everyone to love him like pre programmed Zombies?
Or if He would appear to us all in full glory and everyone would have to admit that there is a God?
No, If you come to the conclusion by scripture that God exists, it is your choice to decide to return the love God has for you.
Return to him, it is the greatest of love man can give in his short life to gain eternal love in his future existence.
Greetings
 
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Occams Barber

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This is perhaps the best question any person can ask, and it is also perhaps the one most theologans can not answer.
And it is a valid question indeed.
I did not understand this "forgiveness of sin with the blood of Christ" theory and I decided to try to see what is meant by "Sins are washed away bu the Blood of Christ" etc.

The answers I got was most certainly one of dogma with long winded theological proposals. Me being a simple and practical person just could not grasp what was said.
Eventually I read the Bible with the mind to note everything about sacrifices and covering sin with blood.

This is how it works.
God created Adam, (Mankind) to live forever, not to die. He told Adam that if he sould eat of the forbidden fruit, he will surely die. This means Adam (and Eve) were immortal creations. We also know that prior to their state of being under the curse of sin, Adam and Eve did not know they were naked. The reason is that they were created in the immage of God, and God is covered in a bright white light and wears light as we wear garments (Psalm 104:2)

After Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their immortality, and their glorious light vanished, and they covered themself with leaves.
God then slaughtered animals, and used their skins to dress the human.

Ok, so what is the significance of this story?
Well, God is Life, and there is no death in God. Death is the absence of God. Adam and Eve became living corpses ageing day by day. We have billions of dead cells in and on our bodies, and more and more cells die as we grow older. No living being in this corrupt state can appear in front of God, it is just impossible to bring death to God.
However, with sacrifices, blood is shead, and it somehow covers, or if I may use the word, blood radiates something that covers the decaying bodies we live in, and this allowed God to live amongst Israel in Sinai.
When Moses faced God, he was not allowed to look directly to God, but only from the back with the hand of God protecting Moses from destruction. even this light radiated from God and made Moses shine with light so bright, that the elders in Israel had to cover Moses for the fear the people had looking at him.

We will also recall that Jesus was glorified and He turned into a bright light, and when He ascended into heaven, He changed into a bright white light.
Therefore, It is a Biblical claim that God created Man to live forever in a body that does not have any decay or death in it.

OK, so as for the offering of sin and blood that takes away our sin, this is the angle to the story.
Blood sacrifice covers the sin of the person who is in the presence of God. The High Preists used blood sacrifices to cover not only people, but every utensil and object in the Tabernacle, and later in the Temple. This allowed the Glory of God to enter the Tabernacle and temple. If you read the Bible, and eventually end up in the letters of the apostles, you will find how they give numerous descriptions on how the priests of old had to mke blood sacrifices to allow God to lead Israel, but they continue to describe how Jesus was now the Blood Sacrifice who covered all the sin of the world by His death.

During the 3 Days where Jesus was dead in the grave, His spirit descended to a place called the kingdom of death, where he spoke to the dead souls showing them how they will change into an immortal body again at the day of judgement. This was the promise fullfilled where God will restore us to the state as Adam and Eve were in the beginning.
This was the creation Jesus brought back to human kind who is now a living dead body, or as the Bible calls it, our "born in sin" bodies.

To end off, many people would claim that children are not born in sin, and people can not be judged on the sins of their ancestors, but they dont realise that the "inherrited sin" from our ancestors are not something we do wrong such as lying, or stealing, no, it is the sinfull body we are born in which Adam through his sin brought death to all of us.
Physically, our bodies reek of death, and in the perfect existance of a perfect God, we are nothing.
However, He still sent His Word who became flesh, yes decaying and dying human like us, to die like us under the curse of death, to allow us to get a new immortal body to return to God as His companions and friend. Did God know this will all happen when He created Adam?
Yes He did, and the reason was that he knew Satan will corrupt His creation, he knew mankind will revolt against him, but he also knew that amongst all his created children, there will be those that will not forsake Him, and he let history go by so to allow them to be saved.
He also know that those that denyHim, will be destroyed, together with Satan and his fallen angels.

There is a saying.
If you love someone, let him / her go!
If they return, they are the ones who love you.

What use if God would force everyone to love him like pre programmed Zombies?
Or if He would appear to us all in full glory and everyone would have to admit that there is a God?
No, If you come to the conclusion by scripture that God exists, it is your choice to decide to return the love God has for you.
Return to him, it is the greatest of love man can give in his short life to gain eternal love in his future existence.
Greetings


I read through your sermon several times Piet. In the end I gave up.

I have no idea what you're trying to say and how it relates to my comments in post #5.

OB
 
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Piet Strydom

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I read through your sermon several times Piet. In the end I gave up.

I have no idea what you're trying to say and how it relates to my comments in post #5.

OB
I do apologise.
What I tried to relay is the crucifixion had to happen to be a blood sacrifice for mankind. By that the blood of Jesus sort of covered the corrupt fleshly bodies that can not be in the vicinity of God. This allowed Jesus to change the bodies we now have, to bodies we will receive at the ressurection. The blood is only a temporary remidy to allow the Spirit of God to enter into our souls. Without blood covering our bodies, even the spirit of God was unable to work in us.
 
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Occams Barber

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What I tried to relay is the crucifixion had to happen to be a blood sacrifice for mankind.
Then you're saying no more than has already been said.

The critical point here is 'why?' the crucifixion was necessary, since it was essentially God sacrificing to himself. What is also unclear is why and how this "sacrifice" exonerates post crucifixion generations (or does it?).
By that the blood of Jesus sort of covered the corrupt fleshly bodies that can not be in the vicinity of God. This allowed Jesus to change the bodies we now have, to bodies we will receive at the ressurection. The blood is only a temporary remidy to allow the Spirit of God to enter into our souls. Without blood covering our bodies, even the spirit of God was unable to work in us.

This fixation on blood and corruption is one of the least endearing aspects of Christianity. Add on the tendency to roll in sin and guilt (are you a 'filthy rag' Piet?) and you have a religion which looks like a Medieval painting and sounds like a chapter from Dante's Inferno.

Is there no happiness in your God?

OB
 
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Piet Strydom

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Then you're saying no more than has already been said.

The critical point here is 'why?' the crucifixion was necessary, since it was essentially God sacrificing to himself. What is also unclear is why and how this "sacrifice" exonerates post crucifixion generations (or does it?).


This fixation on blood and corruption is one of the least endearing aspects of Christianity. Add on the tendency to roll in sin and guilt (are you a 'filthy rag' Piet?) and you have a religion which looks like a Medieval painting and sounds like a chapter from Dante's Inferno.

Is there no happiness in your God?

OB
I get your point now OB.
No human is a filthy rag, at least not from the point of view of Man.
If one is of opinion that there is no Creator, then in our logic it is true that humans are the best evolved creature in Nature.
However, if one looks from the viewpoint of Biblical description, a totally different view reveals itself to where a Perfect God did not create a decaying corpse that ages and eventually dies. If we learn that this Creator made everything perfect, and in Him there is no corruption, but Life, then we have a totally diferent situation.
God did not create death, death is the absence of God.
God made Adam to live forever and the very ancient description of Adam is clear about this imortal body covered with light.

Now if you ask, "Are you a filthy rag Piet," I will have to answer no.

However, If I were to ask you, are you ageing, are you busy dying, are your body capable to decay, is a great part of your body already dead?

The answer is, all of Mankind are nothing more than living things, that are slowly dying.
This is a fact.
Therefore the question should be: Are you slowly but surely decaying?
And the message of Jesus is simple in this regard.
I will give My life and My blood to cover this decay, to allow the Spirit of the Father to live within you, and if you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will receive an immortal body in the afterlife.

Our flesh is the inherited sin, and we are all born with it to decay over our lives.
Not your spirit.
 
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I get your point now OB.

No you don't Piet. Your reply indicates that you don't have a clue (or choose to ignore) what I'm talking about.

Your fixation on blood, death, corruption and bodily decay also strikes me as unhealthy even for a Christian.

In case you weren't aware - my "filthy rag" comment is taken from a number of Bible quotes.

OB
 
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