Why can't God save people after they die?

Tolworth John

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How much time is between death and the final resurrection? For those who lived in the time of Jesus on earth, that gap has been almost 2,000 years now.

Unless, you hold to the eternalist viewpoint that when one dies they somehow step out of time and re-enters it at the judgement after the final resurrection.

You are making an interesting yet useless distinction.u
Would you really advice anyone to wait untill they have died before making a decision about following Jesus?
 
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HitchSlap

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Ecclesiastes 9:6
After people are dead, their love, hate, and jealousy are all gone. And they will never again share in what happens on earth.

Your proof text simply means those who have died do not know what is happening among the living on earth. Also, Solomon was insane with depression when he wrote this book.

Isa 14

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”

11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
12 You were like the morning star,
but you have fallen from the sky.
In the past, all the nations on earth bowed down before you,
but now you have been cut down.
13 You always told yourself,
“I will go to the skies above.
I will put my throne above God’s stars.
I will sit on Zaphon, the holy mountain where the gods meet.
14 I will go up to the altar above the tops of the clouds.
I will be like God Most High.”

15 But that did not happen.
You were brought down to the deep pit—Sheol, the place of death.
16 People will come to look at your dead body.
They will think about you and say,
“Is this the same man
who caused great fear in all the kingdoms on earth,
17 who destroyed cities
and turned the land into a desert,
who captured people in war
and would not let them go home?”
18 The kings of other nations lie buried with honor,
each king with his own grave.
19 But you were thrown out of your grave
like a branch cut from a tree and thrown away.
You are like a dead man who fell in battle,
trampled under the feet of other soldiers.
Now you look like any other dead man
wrapped in burial clothes.
20 Other kings have their own graves,
but you will not join them,
because you ruined your own country
and killed your own people.
So your wicked descendants will be stopped.

21 Prepare to kill his children,
because their father is guilty.
His children will never take control of the land.
They will never fill the world with their cities.

22 The Lord All-Powerful said, “I will stand and fight against those people. I will destroy the famous city, Babylon. I will destroy all the people there. I will destroy their children, their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren.” The Lord himself said this.

23 “I will change Babylon. It will be a place for animals,[c] not people. It will be a swamp. I will use the ‘broom of destruction’ to sweep Babylon away.” The Lord All-Powerful said this.

God Will Also Punish Assyria
24 The Lord All-Powerful made this promise: “This will happen exactly as I meant for it to happen. It will happen just the way I planned. 25 I will destroy the king of Assyria in my country. I will walk on him on my mountains. He forced my people to be his slaves; he put a yoke on their necks. But that pole will be taken off Judah’s neck, and that burden will be removed. 26 This is what I plan to do for this land. I will use my power to punish all those nations.”

27 When the Lord All-Powerful makes a plan, no one can change it. When he raises his arm to punish, no one can stop him.

God’s Message to Philistia
28 This message[d] was given to me the year King Ahaz died[e]:

29 Country of Philistia, don’t be happy that the king who beat you is now dead. It is true that his rule has ended, but his son will come and rule. It will be like one snake giving birth to a more dangerous one. The new king will be like a quick and dangerous snake to you. 30 But even the poorest of my people will be able to eat safely. And their children will be able to lie down and feel safe. But I will make your family die from hunger, and your enemy will kill anyone who survives.

31 People near the city gates, cry!
People in the city, cry out!
Everyone in Philistia,
your courage will melt like hot wax.

Look to the north!
There is a cloud of dust.
An army is coming,
and everyone in that army is strong.[f]
32 But what will the messengers from that nation report about us?
They will say, “The Lord made Zion strong,
and his poor people went there for safety.”
I'm no Rhodes Scholar, but it sounds to me like you're saying it's true, because the bible says it's true?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It is the answer, as I mentioned in a much earlier post.
Hebrews 9:27 rules out any change after death.

All Hebrews 9:27 literally says, that one will die and sometime after that is the final judgement. We know from Matthew 25, there will be a resurrection before the judgement and from Luke 16 and Isaiah 14 people will spend time in the grave. The King James Bible often translated sheol or grave as Hell. Hell as understood by the average person of eternal punishment is not the grave aka sheol.

"It is appointed (apokeitai). Present middle (or passive) of apokeimai, "is laid away" for men. Cf. same verb in Luke 19:20 ; Colossians 1:5 ; 2 Timothy 4:8 (Paul's crown). Once to die (apax apoqanein). Once for all to die, as once for all to live here. No reincarnation here. After this cometh judgement (meta touto krisi). Death is not all. Man has to meet Christ as Judge as Jesus himself graphically pictures ( Matthew 25:31-46 ; John 5:25-29 )." Hebrews 9:27 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

I am not even sure that one can not repent at the judgment. God may be merciful enough to allow repentance after the judgment. God did change his mind in the book of Jonah after the people repented.

Israel Will Be Rescued from Babylon
The Lord will have compassion for Jacob and again choose Israel.
He will resettle them in their own country.
Foreigners will join them
and unite with the descendants of Jacob.
2 People will take them
and bring them to their own place.
The nation of Israel will possess nations
as male and female slaves in the Lord’s land.
They will take their captors captive
and rule their oppressors.

3 When that day comes, the Lord will give you relief
from your pain and suffering,
from the hard slavery you were forced to do.
4 Then you will mock the king of Babylon with this saying,
“How the tyrant has come to an end!
How his attacks have come to an end!”
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers.
6 They struck the people with fury,
with blows that didn’t stop.
They ruled nations in anger,
persecuting them without restraint.
7 The whole earth rests and is peaceful.
It breaks out into shouts of joy.
8 Even the cypresses rejoice over you.
The cedars of Lebanon say,
“Since you have fallen,
no lumberjack has come to attack us.”

9 Sheol below wakes up to meet you when you come.
It wakes up the ghosts of the dead,
all who were leaders on earth.
It raises all who were kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 All of them will greet you,
“You also have become weak like us!
You have become like one of us!”
11 Your pride has been brought down to Sheol

along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are spread out like a bed under you,
and worms cover you.

12 How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn!
How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!
13 You thought,
“I’ll go up to heaven and set up my throne above God’s stars.
I’ll sit on the mountain far away in the north
where the gods assemble.
14 I’ll go above the top of the clouds.
I’ll be like the Most High.”
15 But you’ve been brought down to Sheol,
to the deepest part of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you; they look at you closely and say,
“Is this the man
who made the earth tremble,
who shook the kingdoms,
17 who made the world like a desert and tore down its cities,
who didn’t let his prisoners go home?”

18 All the kings of the nations, all of them,
have been buried with honor, each in his own tomb.
19 But you are thrown out of your tomb like a rejected branch.
You are covered with those who were killed in battle.
You go down to the stones of the pit like a trampled corpse.
20 You won’t be joined by the kings in the tomb,
because you have destroyed your land and killed your people.

The descendants of the wicked will never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter their sons
because of their ancestors’ guilt.
They won’t be able to rise, possess the earth,
and rebuild cities all over it.

22 “I’ll rise up against them,” declares the Lord of Armies.
“I’ll cut off the name of the survivors from Babylon,
its offspring and descendants,” declares the Lord.

23 “It will become the possession of herons.
It will become pools of water.
I’ll sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of Armies.

Assyria Will Be Punished
24 The Lord of Armies has taken an oath:
“It will happen exactly as I’ve intended.
It will turn out exactly as I’ve planned.
25 I’ll crush Assyria on my land.
I’ll trample it underfoot on my mountains.
Then its yoke[a] will be removed from my people,
and its burden will be removed from their shoulders.”

26 This is the plan determined for the whole earth.
This is how he will use his power against all the nations.
27 The Lord of Armies has planned it. Who can stop it?
He is ready to use his power. Who can turn it back?

The Philistines Will Be Punished
28 This was the divine revelation in the year King Ahaz died.

29 All you Philistines, don’t rejoice
that the rod of the one who struck you is broken,
because a viper will come from that snake’s root,
and his descendant will be a flying, fiery serpent.
30 The poorest of the poor will eat,
and the needy will lie down in safety.
But I will put your root to death with famine
and kill off your survivors.

31 Cry loudly in the gate!
Cry out in the city!
Be frightened, all you Philistines!
Smoke comes from the north,
and there are no stragglers in its ranks.
32 How should we answer the messengers from the nations?
Tell them that the Lord has laid Zion’s foundation,
and his humble people will find refuge in it.

Footnotes
Isaiah 14:25 A yoke is a wooden bar placed over the necks of work animals so that they can pull plows or carts.

Isaiah in context clearly shows that people in the grave can think.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You are making an interesting yet useless distinction.u
Would you really advice anyone to wait until they have died before making a decision about following Jesus?

The discussion is about can people repent in the grave after they die.

I would advise people to follow Jesus now.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I'm no Rhodes Scholar, but it sounds to me like you're saying it's true, because the bible says it's true?

Google ANE cosmology to see what I am saying about the historical cultural background of the Bible.

Christians do think the Bible is a revelation from God. And, we are speaking to Christians in this forum. Yes, I am a Christian, but I choose to read the Bible in its Cultural Historical context.

For example, some will quote Isaiah 40:22 "circle of the earth" to say that the bible teaches the earth is round. We know it is egg shaped. But, in the historical context, the circle represents the dome over the dirt --- earth means dirt in this context of Isaiah. The Ancient Near Eastern viewpoint was the earth, dirt or land had a foundation.

Isaiah 40
21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

"In the Bible, as in the ANE, the earth was considered a flat disk (Dan. 4:10–11), not a sphere—despite some commentators suggesting that certain instances of “circle” (e.g., Isa. 40:22) represents such—supported by foundational pillars (Job 38:4–6). It was a relatively small plot of land, whose four corners represent the ends of the earth (Ezek. 7:2). Sheol, “the land of no return,” lay beneath the earth and was situated at the opposite end of the cosmos from the heavens (Amos 9:2). The heavens were divided into the lower and upper heavens by a dome or tent-like structure known as the firmament (Gen. 1:6–8). In the lower heavens were the birds, and the stars (1 Sam. 17:44; Isa. 14:12), which revolved around the earth (Josh. 10:12–13) and were set in the firmament (Gen. 1:14). The upper heavens were reserved for deities and angels (Job 1:6). Surrounding the entire cosmos were the cosmic seas (Gen. 7:11; Ps. 72:2). The seas above were suspended by the firmament (Gen. 1:6–7, 7:11), which had windows through which precipitation fell (2 Kgs. 7:2). The seas below were the source of springs, wells, rivers and lakes (Ezek. 31:3–5), but they were also the source of potential chaos, whose powers needed to be constrained (Hab. 3:10; Job 38:8–11). Although some of the specifics vary among cultures, this general cosmological viewpoint was held throughout the ANE. Furthermore, the most compelling reason we know the Bible assumes an ANE cosmology, however, is that whenever advances were made in human understanding of the cosmic structure (namely, Aristotle and Copernicus), interpreters challenged the new one based on the authority of Scripture." Teaches or Assumes? Ancient Near Eastern Cosmology | Henry Center

For example, there are parallels in the Bible to other texts outside the Bible in those eras.

"In Ps. 68.5[Ps. 4] Yahweh is referred to as the rōkēb bāʿărābôt. Though often translated as ‘rider through the steppe’ (based on the meaning ‘steppe’ of Hebr ʿărābâ), the expression is thought to reflect the Ugaritic epithet rkb ʿrpt, ‘Rider upon the clouds’, traditionally given to Baal."
Rider upon the Clouds בערבות רכב — Brill

Things like this do not bother me, because God did not dictate the Bible.
 
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HitchSlap

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Google ANE cosmology to see what I am saying about the historical cultural background of the Bible.

Christians do think the Bible is a revelation from God. And, we are speaking to Christians in this forum. Yes, I am a Christian, but I choose to read the Bible in its Cultural Historical context.

For example, some will quote Isaiah 40:22 "circle of the earth" to say that the bible teaches the earth is round. We know it is egg shaped. But, in the historical context, the circle represents the dome over the dirt --- earth means dirt in this context of Isaiah. The Ancient Near Eastern viewpoint was the earth, dirt or land had a foundation.

Isaiah 40
21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

"In the Bible, as in the ANE, the earth was considered a flat disk (Dan. 4:10–11), not a sphere—despite some commentators suggesting that certain instances of “circle” (e.g., Isa. 40:22) represents such—supported by foundational pillars (Job 38:4–6). It was a relatively small plot of land, whose four corners represent the ends of the earth (Ezek. 7:2). Sheol, “the land of no return,” lay beneath the earth and was situated at the opposite end of the cosmos from the heavens (Amos 9:2). The heavens were divided into the lower and upper heavens by a dome or tent-like structure known as the firmament (Gen. 1:6–8). In the lower heavens were the birds, and the stars (1 Sam. 17:44; Isa. 14:12), which revolved around the earth (Josh. 10:12–13) and were set in the firmament (Gen. 1:14). The upper heavens were reserved for deities and angels (Job 1:6). Surrounding the entire cosmos were the cosmic seas (Gen. 7:11; Ps. 72:2). The seas above were suspended by the firmament (Gen. 1:6–7, 7:11), which had windows through which precipitation fell (2 Kgs. 7:2). The seas below were the source of springs, wells, rivers and lakes (Ezek. 31:3–5), but they were also the source of potential chaos, whose powers needed to be constrained (Hab. 3:10; Job 38:8–11). Although some of the specifics vary among cultures, this general cosmological viewpoint was held throughout the ANE. Furthermore, the most compelling reason we know the Bible assumes an ANE cosmology, however, is that whenever advances were made in human understanding of the cosmic structure (namely, Aristotle and Copernicus), interpreters challenged the new one based on the authority of Scripture." Teaches or Assumes? Ancient Near Eastern Cosmology | Henry Center

For example, there are parallels in the Bible to other texts outside the Bible in those eras.

"In Ps. 68.5[Ps. 4] Yahweh is referred to as the rōkēb bāʿărābôt. Though often translated as ‘rider through the steppe’ (based on the meaning ‘steppe’ of Hebr ʿărābâ), the expression is thought to reflect the Ugaritic epithet rkb ʿrpt, ‘Rider upon the clouds’, traditionally given to Baal."
Rider upon the Clouds בערבות רכב — Brill

Things like this do not bother me, because God did not dictate the Bible.
So, you're suggesting the earth has a dome and is on a flat foundation, because the bible says so?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Non Biblical texts outside the Bible that relates to the Bible's culture and historical settings of other nations.

Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament with Supplement 3rd Revised ed. Edition
by James B. Pritchard (Editor)
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Eastern-Relating-Testament-Supplement/dp/0691035032

The Ancient Near East, Volume 1: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures 6th Printing Edition
by James B. Pritchard (Editor)
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near...Z8MGZ6ZCMKT&psc=1&refRID=C1DD7XRPYZ8MGZ6ZCMKT

The Ancient Near East (Volume II): A New Anthology of Texts and Pictures
by James B. Pritchard (Editor)
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near...MPE0RE66XQ7&psc=1&refRID=HQ49P1EKXMPE0RE66XQ7

Old Testament Parallels (New Revised and Expanded Third Edition): Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East Paperback – January 1, 2007
by Victor Harold Matthews (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Testament-Pa...Z8MGZ6ZCMKT&psc=1&refRID=C1DD7XRPYZ8MGZ6ZCMKT

Amazon.com

[(Context of Scripture: Canonical Compositions from the Biblical World Volume 1)] [Author: William W. Hallo] published on (June, 2002) Hardcover – June 20, 2002
https://www.amazon.com/Context-Scri...Z8MGZ6ZCMKT&psc=1&refRID=C1DD7XRPYZ8MGZ6ZCMKT

Monumental Inscriptions from the Biblical World (CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE)
by William W. Hallo (Editor), K. Lawson Younger (Editor), Harry A. Hoffner (Editor), Robet K. Ritner (Editor)
https://www.amazon.com/Monumental-I...VPQBQ622H8F&psc=1&refRID=BJS6MPF9KVPQBQ622H8F

The Context of Scripture, Volume 4 Supplements (paperback)
by K. Lawson Younger
Amazon.com : CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE

"The Context of Scripture illuminatingly presents the multi-faceted world of ancient writing that forms the colorful background to the literature of the Hebrew Bible."

The Context of Scripture, Volume 3 Archival Documents from the Biblical World
The Context of Scripture
Editor(s): William W. Hallo and Younger

There are many more books related to this that are well known to Biblical Scholars.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel Paperback – September 1, 1997
by Frank Moore Cross (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Canaanite-My...Z8MGZ6ZCMKT&psc=1&refRID=C1DD7XRPYZ8MGZ6ZCMKT

Ancient Texts for New Testament Studies: A Guide To The Background Literature Paperback – January 1, 2012
by Craig A. Evans (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Text...Z8MGZ6ZCMKT&psc=1&refRID=C1DD7XRPYZ8MGZ6ZCMKT

Scripture and Cosmology: Reading the Bible Between the Ancient World and Modern Science
Front Cover
Kyle Greenwood
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So, you're suggesting the earth has a dome and is on a flat foundation, because the bible says so?

Scripture and Cosmology: Reading the Bible Between the Ancient World and Modern Science
Kyle Greenwood

It is not a guess. The writers of the Bible shared the cultural beliefs of their time.

google ancient near eastern cultures cosmos to find a lot more.

expect someone to tell us that Isaiah 14 in not about the human king, but about Satan, the devil. One of the leaders in the church by allegory came up with that interpretation. But, it does not match the text.
 
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Jeremiah 49:36
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Ezekiel 37:9
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Daniel 7:2
Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 8:8
Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Zechariah 2:6
Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth

Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

29 Bible results for “ends earth” from
King James Version.
Results 1-25.
Deuteronomy 33:17
His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

1 Samuel 2:10
The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the Lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Psalm 48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Psalm 59:13
Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.

Psalm 65:5
By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea:

Psalm 67:7
God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.

Psalm 72:8
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

Psalm 98:3
He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Psalm 135:7
He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

Proverbs 17:24
Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Isaiah 26:15
Thou hast increased the nation, O Lord, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Isaiah 41:5
The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came.

Isaiah 41:9
Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isaiah 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 52:10
The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Jeremiah 10:13
When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Jeremiah 16:19
O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jeremiah 25:31
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.

Jeremiah 51:16
When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Micah 5:4
And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 9:10
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Romans 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
 
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HitchSlap

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Scripture and Cosmology: Reading the Bible Between the Ancient World and Modern Science
Kyle Greenwood

It is not a guess. The writers of the Bible shared the cultural beliefs of their time.

google ancient near eastern cultures cosmos to find a lot more.

expect someone to tell us that Isaiah 14 in not about the human king, but about Satan, the devil. One of the leaders in the church by allegory came up with that interpretation. But, it does not match the text.
I understand current cosmology. The bible says nothing of it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So, you're suggesting the earth has a dome and is on a flat foundation, because the bible says so?

I am not a flat earther. I hold to what we know from Science today.

I am only saying the Bible was written in a culture who believed that.
look in the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible to see cultural constructs.

Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 7:2
Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Daniel 4:10-11
King James Version
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

Job 38:4-6
King James Version
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Ezekiel 7:2
King James Version
2 Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Amos 9:2
King James Version
2 Though they dig into hell(the grave), thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Genesis 1:6-8
King James Version
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Joshua 10:12-13
King James Version
12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Think of the science nightmare if the earth really stood still. For a better understanding based on the original Hebrew text see
Noah's Flood, Joshua's Long Day, & Lucifer's Fall: What Really Happened? Paperback by Ralph Woodrow
https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Flood-Joshuas-Long-Lucifers/dp/0916938077 simple answer, God revealed them of the heat of the sun.

Genesis 1:14
King James Version
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 7:11
King James Version
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 1:6-7
King James Version
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 7:11
King James Version
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

2 Kings 7:2
King James Version
2 Then a lord on whose hand the king leaned answered the man of God, and said, Behold, if the Lord would make windows in heaven, might this thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Genesis 8
King James Version
8 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;

2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Me: I doubt trees would have leaves after being under water for so long.


12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:

19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Genesis 8
Easy-to-Read Version
The Flood Ends
8 But God did not forget about Noah. God remembered him and all the animals that were with him in the boat. God made a wind blow over the earth, and all the water began to disappear.

2 rain stopped falling from the sky, and water stopped flowing from under the earth. 3-4 The water that covered the earth began to go down. After 150 days the water was low enough that the boat touched land again. The boat stopped on one of the mountains of Ararat. This was the 17th day of the seventh month. 5 The water continued to go down, and by the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains were above the water.

6 Forty days later Noah opened the window he had made in the boat. 7 Then he sent out a raven. The raven flew from place to place until the ground was dry and the water was gone. 8 Noah also sent out a dove. He wanted it to find dry ground. He wanted to know if water still covered the earth.

9 The dove could not find a place to rest because water still covered the earth, so the dove came back to the boat. Noah reached out his hand and caught the dove and brought it back into the boat.

10 After seven days Noah again sent out the dove. 11 And that afternoon the dove came back to Noah. The dove had a fresh olive leaf in its mouth. This was a sign to show Noah that there was dry ground on the earth. 12 Seven days later Noah sent the dove out again. But this time the dove didn’t come back.

13 After that Noah opened the door[a] of the boat. He looked and saw that the ground was dry. This was the first day of the first month of the year. He was 601 years old. 14 By the 27th day of the second month, the ground was completely dry.

15 Then God said to Noah, 16 “Leave the boat. You, your wife, your sons, and your sons’ wives should go out now. 17 Bring every living animal out of the boat with you—all the birds, animals, and everything that crawls on the earth. These animals will make many more animals, and they will fill the earth again.”

18 So Noah went out with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals, everything that crawls, and every bird left the boat. All the animals came out of the boat in family groups.

20 Then Noah built an altar to honor the Lord. Noah took some of all the clean birds and some of all the clean animals and burned them on the altar as a gift to God.

21 The Lord smelled these sacrifices, and it pleased him. The Lord said to himself, “I will never again curse the earth as a way to punish people. People are evil from the time they are young, but I will never again destroy every living thing on the earth as I did this time. 22 As long as the earth continues, there will always be a time for planting and a time for harvest. There will always be cold and hot, summer and winter, day and night on earth.”


Me: Basically, it the culture of the ANE, They would think the water returned to under the land, earth. Also, for a tree to still have leaves tells me that the whole earth as we understand it was not flooded. Only the known populated world that Noah knew about would be flooded. I do not know if he knew about lands like Egypt.
 
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FireDragon76

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If God is omnipotent, and all wise, why can't he come up with a way to save people who changed their minds after they died?

Because the implied cruelty of not doing so is a feature, not a bug. Or else "free will" or somesuch.
 
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The word "obviously" seems rather overconfident there. We don't know anything about the afterlife. Was this story from Luke a metaphor? Do souls in hell get new bodies so they can be tormented? Who knows? How could you know?
It should give every Christian enormous doubt that there is such a lot - everything, really - that they don't know about how they are going to spend the rest of their infinitely long lives. It sometimes makes me wonder if Christians actually think about these things.

The religious mindset tends to mitigate against thinking. "Trust and obey" as the hymn goes.
 
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If God is omnipotent, and all wise, why can't he come up with a way to save people who changed their minds after they died?

Just curious, who wouldn't change their minds after they died?
 
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Just curious, who wouldn't change their minds after they died?
If there is an afterlife, I'm guessing a lot of people, and perhaps even many Christians once they found out their God may have been fictional and some other deity is the true God.
 
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